Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Pacific wrote:Does it matter if they are reused though if the overall effect looks OK?

Begging the question. There are a lot of people who don't think the overall effect looks okay.

kenshin620 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
"Hi, I am Gimli from the new Lord of the Rings game."

LIES! He should be smaller and completely incompatible with warhammer models!

He is! Can't you see?

Pacific wrote:Does it matter if they are reused though if the overall effect looks OK?

If you dig them then it doesn't.

As dissapointed as I am with the rehash, I like the RT vibe and the look is good enough that I'd probably buy them if I were looking to start Orx.

My negative feelings about the sprue had to do with
-Missed opportunity for adding variation by adding KOW orcs to Warpath Orc bodies
-Feeling that it's a bit underhanded to have a blind pre-sale of a new product when the bodies of half the figures are not new!
-It shows general laziness on Mantic's part
-It does not bode well for the forgefathers. If FF ends up being loinclothed mantic dwarves with guns I will be quite disapointed.

"Yo dawg! I heard you like boxed games like Space Hulk. I am a dwarf from the game "Dwarf King's Hold." (that's true)


"Yo dawg! I heard you like historical games. I am a stocky human Templar from our new 22mm historical miniature line." (not yet true)

As much as I'd love the see this news and rumour thread become solely dedicated to lame attempts at humour through the use of tired memes... here is a pic of the other marauder sprue:



Apologies for going ontopic.

I'm seeing so many conversion opportunities here. SS, where did you get that pic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eilif wrote:

Pacific wrote:Does it matter if they are reused though if the overall effect looks OK?

If you dig them then it doesn't.

As dissapointed as I am with the rehash, I like the RT vibe and the look is good enough that I'd probably buy them if I were looking to start Orx.

My negative feelings about the sprue had to do with
-Missed opportunity for adding variation by adding KOW orcs to Warpath Orc bodies
-Feeling that it's a bit underhanded to have a blind pre-sale of a new product when the bodies of half the figures are not new!
-It shows general laziness on Mantic's part
-It does not bode well for the forgefathers. If FF ends up being loinclothed mantic dwarves with guns I will be quite disapointed.

Its not laziness. When the company is this small, it makes financial sense to reuse existing resources if they would look plausible.

scarletsquig wrote:As much as I'd love the see this news and rumour thread become solely dedicated to lame attempts at humour through the use of tired memes... here is a pic of the other marauder sprue:



Apologies for going ontopic.

Is this an original designed sprue or a reaccessorizing of an Orc command sprue?
I do like the look of the sci-fi bits on it.

Eilif wrote:Is this an original designed sprue or a reaccessorizing of an Orc command sprue?
I do like the look of the sci-fi bits on it.

If you can't tell, does it matter?

The problem is we can tell it...

Anyway, i like the general look of mobs of this things, better than i like GW.

Im just disapointed with mantic... thats all...

Guys, why is everyone getting so bent out of shape on the re-using of the existing orc bodies?

Hell, GW does it with space marines. The only difference between the different "chapters" is bling and the odd special weapon type.

So after all the hype and expectations the new SciFi models end up being the same type of goofy half-assed sculpts and cheap army men poses as the other Mantic toys.

This is why 40K is alive and well.

lord marcus wrote:Guys, why is everyone getting so bent out of shape on the re-using of the existing orc bodies?

Hell, GW does it with space marines. The only difference between the different "chapters" is bling and the odd special weapon type.

Except that each marine variant isn't the flagship release for their brand new sci-fi game. If these had been "down the road" releases after they'd already established some brand new forces then I don't think there would be a problem. As it is, I don't see why people being disappointed should be especially surprising. They went with a cautious initial release, the downside of that is people won't be wow'd.

lord marcus wrote:Guys, why is everyone getting so bent out of shape on the re-using of the existing orc bodies?

Hell, GW does it with space marines. The only difference between the different "chapters" is bling and the odd special weapon type.

But do you know what GW doesn't do?
It doesn't place a gun in the hand of an empire swordsman to make imperial guard. Nor in the hand of a skeleton to make a Necron. It does not even use fantasy orc for its space orks. The last example is of a set that is so close it can be used interchangeably, but the shoes on the space orks have modern bolts and rivets that make it clearly "not fantasy".

I think a Sci-Fi game that places fantasy races in the future need to be very careful that they look like the future. I dislike the wookie crossbow for this reason. I dislike the marauders for the same.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:So after all the hype and expectations the new SciFi models end up being the same type of goofy half-assed sculpts and cheap army men poses as the other Mantic toys.

This is why 40K is alive and well.

Yeah, and GW sink more and more each year...

Oh, and those are not goofy half-assed sculpts, as all the other Mantic toys... They are good and low cost miniatures, as all the other Mantic Toys...

The only problem on this guys is that i could not help myself, but feel cheated, but i always saw a bit of sci-fi in mantic dwarf design, and the orcs ended up being no-diferent.

But well, until now, mantic give us one "re-use" of and old sculpt. GW is re-casting a lot of old sculpts in a cheaper material (with the low qualitie included), just to tell us it is new, and charge more for it. Sorry, 40k is "alive and well" for his base of fans, and im not sure about how well it is...

Oh, and about the marine thing: Marines normally are not the first rank and file trooper of a totally new set of miniatures/game, they are intended to be "great qualitie conversions" of the original marines, the first rank and file trooper of the related set/game. That is not an excuse, Mantic got the cheaper option around, and that dont please me as a fan, i expected more from them.

But they dont look bad...

Very disappointing. I was actually quite interested in picking up Warpath (maybe 2 copies) but with:
* the price rise compared to KoW for pretty much the same amount of material (despite defenders' comments that Mantic "don't/won't price their models like that").
* recycled Orc sculpts that I'm not keen on anyway - (if I liked their Orcs a lot I might have been fine with it).
* they still haven't shown all the models - this seems to me that they have a lack of faith in their own product's ability to sell itself.
* the bait-and-switch between concept art and finished product - since the bodies are completely recycled and shoeless.
* Space Dwarfs - that could have been the saving grace for me - with crappy gorilla-style proportions. (short legs and long arms).
* Silly high $ prices on the Dorfs.

I'm neither a fanboy or hater of either Mantic or GW, but Warpath had so much potential, and it seems that it's mostly been squandered.

scipio.au wrote:Very disappointing. I was actually quite interested in picking up Warpath (maybe 2 copies) but with:
* the price rise compared to KoW for pretty much the same amount of material (despite defenders' comments that Mantic "don't/won't price their models like that").
* recycled Orc sculpts that I'm not keen on anyway - (if I liked their Orcs a lot I might have been fine with it).
* they still haven't shown all the models - this seems to me that they have a lack of faith in their own product's ability to sell itself.
* the bait-and-switch between concept art and finished product - since the bodies are completely recycled and shoeless.
* Space Dwarfs - that could have been the saving grace for me - with crappy gorilla-style proportions. (short legs and long arms).
* Silly high $ prices on the Dorfs.

I'm neither a fanboy or hater of either Mantic or GW, but Warpath had so much potential, and it seems that it's mostly been squandered.

Mabe they sent the masters to get painted and the painter has a massive backlog? Mabe all the masters havent been cast because of renedra's workload? There are a bunch of reasons they can't show all of the models yet.

As for the bait and switch, the maruader concept art was of the hero if i am not mistaken, although in a different pose.

Prices on the forgefathers are most likely because half the range is resin plastic.

Well, I think I will reserve judgement until the models are released and I have one in my hand. I'm not bothered at all whatever short cuts have been taken as far as design process and production goes as long as the finished article looks ok.

The way that people are going on about the previous KoW sculpts it's almost like we are talking about Thai lady-boys are something - "Yes, I know she looks beautiful, but I can't forget that she used to be a man!!"

Of course, I can understand the upset if you didn't like the previous KoW style of orc and were after something different from this range..

lord marcus wrote:Guys, why is everyone getting so bent out of shape on the re-using of the existing orc bodies?

Hell, GW does it with space marines. The only difference between the different "chapters" is bling and the odd special weapon type.

It's just that it doesn't seem to make any sense that they would recast the same exact bodies. Surely their sculptors aren't so hard pressed as to not be able to change details on 5 bodies. If they are so busy, then releasing a whole new range of miniatures seems like a bad idea.

lord marcus wrote:As for the bait and switch, the maruader concept art was of the hero if i am not mistaken, although in a different pose.

No, they did show the concept art - I think it was on Bell of Lost Souls. Ah, here we go. Even those armoured sandals were less than I would have liked for this new race, and then Mantic went for recycled shoeless, pantsless hobos.

Prices on the forgefathers are most likely because half the range is resin plastic.

And half the range is only resin plastic because Mantic's cutting corners. The cheap plastic miniatures were what set them apart from GW, yet it looks like they put more effort into the two 10-man sprues for their first Elf regiment than they did for the plastics line for the entire Warpath game.

Gen. Lee Losing wrote:Nor in the hand of a skeleton to make a Necron.

I think you just figured out the 8th race

AlexHolker wrote:

lord marcus wrote:As for the bait and switch, the maruader concept art was of the hero if i am not mistaken, although in a different pose.

No, they did show the concept art - I think it was on Bell of Lost Souls. Ah, here we go. Even those armoured sandals were less than I would have liked for this new race, and then Mantic went for recycled shoeless, pantsless hobos.

Prices on the forgefathers are most likely because half the range is resin plastic.

And half the range is only resin plastic because Mantic's cutting corners. The cheap plastic miniatures were what set them apart from GW, yet it looks like they put more effort into the two 10-man sprues for their first Elf regiment than they did for the plastics line for the entire Warpath game.

Cause its good EVERY GW orc has pants, boots, shirt, belt and straps. Tell me, why do everyone of millions of orcs dress the same and WHERE THE F$*K DO THERE CLOTHES COME FROM.

It seems that the metal forgefather hero you get in the army deals has a helmet that's very similar to the ones worn by the KoW Dwarves. I would be astonished if the Steel Warriors aren't the same kind of rehash as the Orx.

ChocolateGork wrote:Cause its good EVERY GW orc has pants, boots, shirt, belt and straps. Tell me, why do everyone of millions of orcs dress the same and WHERE THE F$*K DO THERE CLOTHES COME FROM.

Clothes are far easier to make than ork vehicles, suits of mega-armor or intergalactic starships. Orks get their clothes from the same place they get all of their other stuff: by pressganging grots to make them.

lord marcus wrote:
Mabe they sent the masters to get painted and the painter has a massive backlog? Mabe all the masters havent been cast because of renedra's workload? There are a bunch of reasons they can't show all of the models yet.

As for the bait and switch, the maruader concept art was of the hero if i am not mistaken, although in a different pose.

Prices on the forgefathers are most likely because half the range is resin plastic.

1) On the first one - you're merely speculating wildly - there are "a bunch of reasons"? And you're privvy to them? Or just excuse-making for them? and honestly, it doesn't matter why they haven't shown the models - the fact remains that it's unprofessional of them. For all the scorn and disinterest about Dread Fleet, GW has shown the models and the box content before asking us for money for them.

2) As for bait and switch - they also previewed trooper artwork. That the Fantasy Orcs with add-ons don't look close enough to. (Concept art looked quite good).

3) Resin plastic, yadda yadda, more excuses, more money. Don't care. Plenty of better models out there for a comparable or better price. I'm not even talking about GW on that point.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pacific wrote:Well, I think I will reserve judgement until the models are released and I have one in my hand. I'm not bothered at all whatever short cuts have been taken as far as design process and production goes as long as the finished article looks ok.

The way that people are going on about the previous KoW sculpts it's almost like we are talking about Thai lady-boys are something - "Yes, I know she looks beautiful, but I can't forget that she used to be a man!!"

Of course, I can understand the upset if you didn't like the previous KoW style of orc and were after something different from this range..

Their undead from the KoW box are decent to quite good. The Dwarfs are sub-par but workable. I plan to add a bunch of GW bits to them to add a bit more life at some stage, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed in them when I got them. At least the KoW box was cheap as chips, which made it all that much more forgivable. The Warpath box is a lot more expensive with a lot fewer models, which kind of kills the "well, they're cheap so I don't mind" vibe for me. The Forgefathers (well, the three models + thudd gun they've deigned to show us at this stage) are well-sculpted but I can't get past the messed-up gorilla-arms proportions.

Basically, if the minis look seriously flawed or like crap, then I'll never buy one. All this talk of "I'll judge them when I see them in my hand" is all well and good, but they have to get to the consumers' hand first. I can't see a compelling reason for me to spend my money to purchase them just so I can see them in hand.

Like I said though, it's largely me being very disappointed in Mantic's handling of the new game and model ranges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChocolateGork wrote:
Cause its good EVERY GW orc has pants, boots, shirt, belt and straps. Tell me, why do everyone of millions of orcs dress the same and WHERE THE F$*K DO THERE CLOTHES COME FROM.

What's your point exactly? I can't understand what you're getting at - are you complaining that 40k orks have boots and pants? Or are you complaining that 40k orks don't have thousands of unique torsos, legs and boots? Or something else...?

Because if you want your 40k orks without pants or shoes, the plastic range is made of an entire series of separate-but-compatible components, as opposed to the same four-odd torsos with attached legs.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:The problem is we can tell it...

Anyway, i like the general look of mobs of this things, better than i like GW.

Im just disapointed with mantic... thats all...

Let me get this straight.. you like the look of these models.

But you feel angry that mantic re-used the bodies (despite the fact that they have re-used bodies and other components on the elf bowman sprue, undead revenant sprue, dwarf ironwatch sprue and dwarf shieldbreaker sprue)

Question - If the KoW Orcs did not exist, and only these marauders existed, would you like or dislike the models?

If you like the look of the models, then why are you getting so worked up over the re-use of fantasy orcs? Are you sure you're not getting over-emotional about something that really isn't that much of a big deal?


Mantic have always copy + pasted their sprues, this is nothing new. It's what companies who sell cheap hard plastic models do.

- Wargames Factory does it.
- Warlord games does it.
- Perry minatures does it.
- Mantic does it.

If you are willing to pay more for models that do not copy+paste components, buy your models from GW, you absolutely will not find an affordable miniatures manufacturer with a large range of models that doesn't make use of this practice.

Fantasy models in sci-fi is a bit of a stretch, I'll admit, but if mantic makes a profit on them whereas they would have made a loss if they sculpted and tooled new bodies then they made the right decision.

If Warpath crashes and burns, then they'll have learnt an important lesson about taking their production values more seriously in future.

I'm happy to leave it at that. I'm not too bothered by the marauders, I collect KoW Orcs anyway, so it's nothing but good news for me, and I think it just about works. It's not as good as if they'd done new bodies, but it's not bad ether.. the models are still better than the mantic elves or dwarfs even with the re-used bodies.

What will be the make-or-break factor for me will be the forgefather sprue. If it's based on the (much worse looking) fantasy dwarfs, then that's definitely not going to be a good move.

I own 200+ mantic dwarf models, I know for a fact that clone bodies will not cut it, they will look nothing like the heavy weapon troops if they are.

We know that the forgefather sprue will have 2 models on it. That's already cutting it a bit close to the wire in terms of providing enough variation. If the models have closed helms, they can do it. not if they have open helms though, there won't be enough head variants.

If the entire forgefather plastic release is half of a 2-man sprue based on the dwarf ironwatch, I'll start agreeing with the rest of you. Won't stop me from buying 3 copies of the warpath starter (I really, really like the forgefather heavies and vehicle, and the maruaders are simply "hey cool, tons of cheap orcs to add to my KoW army" in my eyes), but I'll admit that they're a bit crap.

Wow, so the second sprue is a rehash also. This is pretty darn disapointing. The cutting of the molds is the expensive part, why couldn't they have sprung for a few new body sculpts?

Seeing the reposted concept art for the orx, it is different enough from the final product, that I think Mantic was wrong to not release the sprue pics before offering pre-orders. My personal feeling is that not having done so qualifies as a bait and switch. Anyone seeing the art would be justified in thinking they were getting new sculpts, when that isn't the case at all.

All that said, the figs are a reasonable option for cheap space orks, I just prefer it when companies are upfront in their dealings.

I'm still holding out hope for the forgefathers. I'm hoping that the higher price for forgefathers (compared to Orx) is because they are new sculpts and real mutlipart kits with many options.

lord marcus wrote:Guys, why is everyone getting so bent out of shape on the re-using of the existing orc bodies?

Hell, GW does it with space marines. The only difference between the different "chapters" is bling and the odd special weapon type.

Not the same thing at all. Space marines are supposed to be standardized, and GW isn't using space marine sprues for

Eilif wrote:Wow, so the second sprue is a rehash also. This is pretty darn disapointing. The cutting of the molds is the expensive part, why couldn't they have sprung for a few new body sculpts?

Because they aren't re-cutting the "body half" of the moulds for these.

The moulds are multi-part.

When they want to produce a batch of marauders, they use the body half of the mould, and the marauder half of the mould, put them together and make the batch of Warpath Marauders.

Then, when they want to make some KoW Orcs, they use the *same* body half of the mould, match it up with the fantasy sprue and make a batch of KoW Orcs.

There is no "cutting exactly the same sculpts out of a steel mould twice" process going on.


So, this is not as simple as "HURRR Mantic so lazy they couldn't be bothered to pay the sculptor for another day's work" as most of the people posting here would like to assume.

It costs tens of thousands of pounds to get a typical mould cut, and the larger and more complex the component (orc bodies for example), the harder and more expensive it is to tool it. Duplicating the bodies would have been a massive cost saving, and is probably what allowed mantic to make a second sprue with the heavy weapons and stuff on it instead of doing resin plastic for those like they did with the forgefathers. Everyone says they want more variety and more components on the sprue, and this is mantic delivering on those demands.



I'd explain more about the manufacturing process and stuff, but loads of people have already stated that they are not interested in hearing any "excuses" or listening to any reasons as to why mantic might have actually done the sprues like this, so I won't bother. The prevailing argument is "I don't care about all that crap, I just want GW-quality models for half the price".

It is incredibly frustrating even attempting to discuss anything on here. The majority of you are:

a) Jumping to your own (completely false) conclusions about what the manufacturing process involves.

b) Shouting down other people's attempts to explain the manufacturing process.

I'm still holding out hope for the forgefathers. I'm hoping that the higher price for forgefathers (compared to Orx) is because they are new sculpts and real mutlipart kits with many options.

I also have high hopes for the forgefather plastics.

Forgefather plastics will be cheaper than the Orx plastics.

It's only the crazy pricing on the resin plastic heavy weapons that is making the forgefather army deals so expensive.

Something like £12 for 5 models. And no, I don't know why they've made them so expensive, either.. that's Empire greatsword pricing, right there.

Forgefather heavies are the only part of the Warpath price list that is actually terrible, the rest of the range is decent value.

The end result is all that matters. These results are cheap crap.

scarletsquig wrote:
It is incredibly frustrating even attempting to discuss anything on here. The majority of you are:

a) Jumping to your own (completely false) conclusions about what the manufacturing process involves.

b) Shouting down other people's attempts to explain the manufacturing process.

I didn't see anyone try until now. Split molds do explain a lot. But it makes Mantic look even worse in my eyes - they've recycled half of the actual, physical mold, so why is the price higher?

lord_blackfang wrote:they've recycled half of the actual, physical mold, so why is the price higher?

Yeah, IMO this is the crux of what is bothering people, the combination of repeat bodies + price rise.. I think most people could have dealt with the price rise if the sprues were all-new, or would have been fine with recycled sprues if the price remained low.

Instead we have both at once, and even if it doesn't personally bother me I do see where everyone else is coming from.

The KoW orcs cost £18 for 20. Warpath Marauders cost £20 for 20.

Slightly over 10% price increase is never the best of news, but couple it with repeated bodies and it's gonna annoy people, regardless of the fact that the models are still 40% cheaper than GW and have quite a cool rogue trader kinda style to them.

That said, the marauder army box is quite nice.. you get 50 Orx for £50... plus 2 of the raptor vehicles on top for free. That's a pretty good deal, IMO.

Like most of mantic's models they are average sculpts at average prices.. any move beyond that loses their target market, I think.

Also, worth keeping in mind that Mantic will be releasing 6 new armies (4 for warpath + 2 for KoW) within the space of the next 6 months. Yes, seriously, here is the release schedule:

- October: Marauders
- December: Forgefathers + Twilight Kin
- January: Corporation
- February: Goblins (already sculpted)
- March: "The eighth race" Word is - completely new and unique mantic race. No GW-esque alternative.

I think they might be trying to expand too rapidly.in a market where traditionally you are supposed to wait for a very long time for your hard plastic figures to pay back the cost of the mould and then make long-term profit. It took GW 10 years to pay back the mould costs on the Leman Russ battle tank simply because the technology at the time was so expensive.

I'm not sure that Warpath will be a massive seller right off the bat, but I do think that adding the corporation and the 8th race will really help things along. IMO, those are the 2 races that should have been released first, to make a classic humans vs. aliens game and also introduce some models that are 100% new mantic IP to cut through some of the criticism they've received for that.

I've just received the Marauder command sprue through the post. They look awesome and I am really excited. I do not care that they have re-used the Orc bodies. The price is fine by me and I am all for supporting Mantic through the future. I will enjoy painting my Marauders.