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That is an ambitious schedule. I hope I see something more to my liking soon. Do we know yet if the core Forge Fathers are... recycled?

scarletsquig wrote:

Eilif wrote:Wow, so the second sprue is a rehash also. This is pretty darn disapointing. The cutting of the molds is the expensive part, why couldn't they have sprung for a few new body sculpts?

Because they aren't re-cutting the "body half" of the moulds for these.

The moulds are multi-part.

When they want to produce a batch of marauders, they use the body half of the mould, and the marauder half of the mould, put them together and make the batch of Warpath Marauders.

Then, when they want to make some KoW Orcs, they use the *same* body half of the mould, match it up with the fantasy sprue and make a batch of KoW Orcs.

There is no "cutting exactly the same sculpts out of a steel mould twice" process going on.

It costs tens of thousands of pounds to get a typical mould cut, and the larger and more complex the component (orc bodies for example), the harder and more expensive it is to tool it. Duplicating the bodies would have been a massive cost saving, and is probably what allowed mantic to make a second sprue with the heavy weapons and stuff on it instead of doing resin plastic for those like they did with the forgefathers. Everyone says they want more variety and more components on the sprue, and this is mantic delivering on those demands.

I'd explain more about the manufacturing process and stuff, but loads of people have already stated that they are not interested in hearing any "excuses" or listening to any reasons as to why mantic might have actually done the sprues like this, so I won't bother. The prevailing argument is "I don't care about all that crap, I just want GW-quality models for half the price".

Interesting to know. I am aware of the great expense for mold cutting though I was not aware that they are splitting their molsd. Do we know for a fact that Mantic is doing this, or is this your conjecture? If you are correct, then it would explain much about why we are seeing what we are. You do sound a bit defensive though, no need to get huffy about what you percieve other's opionions to be. If you have more information, by all means share it!

Regardless, of the manufacturing process and $ that might have been saved, I still feel that it's shady and bordering-on-dishonest to release a "new" product with "new" art on a blind presale when at 30-50% of the product is not a new product at all.

^ For a fact. Mantic get their tooling done by Renedra, the same mould-maker that does the models for Perry, Warlord, Victrix, AoW etc. Some of those companies have directly explained the tooling process and how the re-use of the moulds save them money to their customers. Perry and Warlord in particular constantly clone their body moulds across their entire range of models, even the much-loved Perry WotR models have cloned bodies and heads between the 2 different kits (only the arms are different). Mantic haven't gone into this amount of detail or commented on the tooling process, but it's pretty clear from the 100% identical sprue layout that they have not just spent £10-20k+ tooling exactly the same body moulds that they did 2 months ago. Instead, they've saved the money, and it can be spent on other developments... like their crazy upcoming release schedule that is trying to achieve more army releases than GW in total for next year despite the company being a thousand times smaller.

Another interesting feature about split moulds - at some point in the future, it could be entirely possible for mantic to go back and make proper sci-fi bodies for the marauders. That option isn't ruled out, and the current moulds are not a "set in stone" affair.

lord_blackfang wrote:That is an ambitious schedule. I hope I see something more to my liking soon. Do we know yet if the core Forge Fathers are... recycled?

Not yet. All we know is that they will be a 2-model sprue. It is the only thing out of the initial set of warpath releases that we haven't seen, and the starter set is released in 6 weeks time so we should get it soon.

KoW Dwarfs have a 2-model sprue which has had it's bodies used for 3 different things (ironwatch, artillery crew and shieldbreakers).

On each of these sprues, the section copy + pasted has a hammer, 2 bodies, and 2 heads... and the 2 heads look like ass. Really, they are not good.

If we get half of a 2-model sprue as the only new forgefather plastics, with *those* 2 heads as the only head options then I am just going to .

It wouldn't affect the amount of Warpath I buy, I'm down for 3 starter sets regardless.. the forgefather heavies and vehicle are very impressive IMO, and much more interesting to me than anything (dark eldar excluded) that GW has released for 5th edition 40k.. .but it would put a sour cherry on top of what should have been a totally perfect range of models. Really hope it won't happen.

Mantic might not get everything right, or even release what can be considered an acceptable range of models for an army to start with, but it will at least get a ton of different stuff out there. By the end of 2012, they want to have 10 armies released for KoW (including 2 new unique-to-mantic ones) and 8 armies released for Warpath.

They're probably only going to make 1 or 2 plastic sprues for each new army, supported by resin plastic, then on to the next lot. Breakneck pace, faster release schedule than GW. Expect a lot of shortcuts and mantic looking a bit weak for a year or so (but having a TON of new models) as they get the core of their business built up.

2013 is the consolidation year planned for mantic, where they take their 18 armies and flesh them out to full armies and also add an extra 2 armies to warpath. They definitely gunning to be a full-on competitor to GW, but it's going to take them a couple of years to catch up with GW's significant headstart in terms of an existing miniatures catalog that is large enough to properly fund the regular release of new, and properly done plastics each month.

Some people like the Fantasy setting, some people rather like a SciFi setting.
If you are on budget, most people will let you proxy your SciFi army with Fantasy models until you can afford something more fitting.

But a company that wants to offer a serious competition to 40k is well advised not to start with Fantasy proxies. This "Kings of Warpath" approach will end badly if they don't change their strategy.

Scarlet: i just feel strange with those orxs sprue, but i like them and will probably buy. Its just this feeling of "they could have done something so incredible..."

And i really believe that in future they will release some extra kit with proper boots and pants.

I really cannot see such a big issue, at least with the orx using of the kings of war body models as the basis for a model. Orx orks or orcs they are from what I have seen of the concepts they fit the premis well. If you expected something other than green skinned goofy gun toting troops with a odd assortment of armour then look harder because you won't find them in gw's catalogue either.

The main reason for the increase in price is likely that manic doesn't expect enough sales to generate enough revenue to cover cost and leave a reasonable profit.

Although that wouldn't be a correct assumption to make, assuming that the sales figures they gave for their KoW stuff were accurate - 40k is even more popular, so they have to be expecting their Warpath range to sell more. Certainly, there has been a lot more buzz on various forums about it than there was for the KoW stuff (even if it is people saying they are unhappy about the sculpt being recycled! )

I'm wondering whether it was just the case of the previous price range being priced too cheaply. I still think £20 for 20 miniatures is pretty good value, and it gets cheaper with the larger sets. I can't remember the time that GW plastic ork boyz were the same price.

2013 is the consolidation year planned for mantic, where they take their 18 armies and flesh them out to full armies and also add an extra 2 armies to warpath. They definitely gunning to be a full-on competitor to GW, but it's going to take them a couple of years to catch up with GW's significant headstart in terms of an existing miniatures catalog that is large enough to properly fund the regular release of new, and properly done plastics each month.

I totally agree, we have to give it some time - we're behaving a little like a pack of dogs on here, Mr. Owner has just walked in with an open can of food and we're all going mental jumping around him, shouting "me, me, now, now!" before we've even seen what is inside the tin.

Cheap fantasy models appeal to more than just FB players though, whereas cheap Orx really just appeal to 40k players and potential Warpath players. I'd be surprised if there was much of a jump in market size.

plastictrees wrote:Cheap fantasy models appeal to more than just FB players though, whereas cheap Orx really just appeal to 40k players and potential Warpath players. I'd be surprised if there was much of a jump in market size.

Not true. There are sci fi roleplays that need mobs to fight.

Sci-Fi roleplaying is a much smaller audience than Fantasy, though.

Doesn't matter compared to the fact that it is out there, and people will need models.

Oh sure, though I honestly don't think that sci-fi roleplayers are exactly going to spike/increase Mantic's sales.

Maybe the Forgefathers, as they do have a new look to them to most things out there, but most Sci-fi players who are lilely to use Orx will already have Orks. Even so, Roleplayers don't buy the number of models that wargamers do, obviously.

I was going to say actually, my opinion is based only on my own experience and therefore complete supposition but I should imagine that the number of models sold for D&D purposes probably pales compared to that of wargames.

That being said, GW's prices do seem a hell of a lot more attractive if you only have to buy one box of them

I've got no problems with them using the bodies from the other Orc dudes to use for their sci-fi range. So long as once you add weapons they look the part, then it's all good in my opinion.

Not every company is going to have the time or money to make a different sculpt, especially when the race is exactly the same, just in a different setting. So long as Mantic make a good product at a very reasonable price, I'm definitely going to be using their line of miniatures.

Pacific wrote:Although that wouldn't be a correct assumption to make, assuming that the sales figures they gave for their KoW stuff were accurate - 40k is even more popular, so they have to be expecting their Warpath range to sell more. Certainly, there has been a lot more buzz on various forums about it than there was for the KoW stuff (even if it is people saying they are unhappy about the sculpt being recycled! )

This may be a fair point about popularity, but it also bears remembering that WHFB armies tend to have far more figures than 40k armies.

Pacific wrote: I'm wondering whether it was just the case of the previous price range being priced too cheaply. I still think £20 for 20 miniatures is pretty good value, and it gets cheaper with the larger sets. I can't remember the time that GW plastic ork boyz were the same price.

Definitely agree here. Especially since you will be able to easily find it for 20 percent off at most any online shopping cart store other than Mantic themselves.

On the topic of reusing bodies, they can't for that for the Corporation right? Their concept art is just too different from fantasy

kenshin620 wrote:On the topic of reusing bodies, they can't for that for the Corporation right? Their concept art is just too different from fantasy

They don't even have any fantasy humans to reuse, so there's little danger of that.

Not to rain too hard on the "cheap orks" parade here, but AoBR boyz and nobs are readily available in large numbers, very cheaply. They're also similarly multipart compared to the Mantic figures (ie not the full monty, but with a bit of posability.)

AlexHolker wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:On the topic of reusing bodies, they can't for that for the Corporation right? Their concept art is just too different from fantasy

They don't even have any fantasy humans to reuse, so there's little danger of that.

Didn't someone say about the same manufacturers making Perry Twins plastics?

I'm imagining war of the roses archers, with electron bows

Scipio.au, sure I agree with you you can get them cheaply, but for many people buying new (and especially outside of ebay), then the prices will be compared to an off the shelf box of ork boyz.

Still curious if you can use SciFi miniatures in a Warpath game or if they will look out of place

Pacific wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:On the topic of reusing bodies, they can't for that for the Corporation right? Their concept art is just too different from fantasy

They don't even have any fantasy humans to reuse, so there's little danger of that.

Didn't someone say about the same manufacturers making Perry Twins plastics?

I'm imagining war of the roses archers, with electron bows

Scipio.au, sure I agree with you you can get them cheaply, but for many people buying new (and especially outside of ebay), then the prices will be compared to an off the shelf box of ork boyz.

Yes, same Manufacturer, But Rendra is not Mantic.

In much the same way that Black Orc Games is on On The Lamb, and Iron Wind Metals is not Wyrd.

Yes I know, I was just being scurrilous

(and kind of hoping someone would photoshop a plasma pistol into the hand of a Perry Twins archer!)

I really don't care either way about these models, but releasing the same models with different weapons is really, really lazy. I mean, the fantasy Orcs and 40K Orks are 100% compatible with one another, but they're still different sculpts (they might share a head or two).

This is poor form.

You could give someone a Million pounds and say "Here this is for you, enjoy it you deserve it".

And 50% of people would go "Huh? Just a Million Pounds, I am severely disappointed".

Bottomline 50% of people are just plain negative, the other 50% talk in sweeping generalisations ;p

mwnciboo wrote:You could give someone a Million pounds and say "Here this is for you, enjoy it you deserve it".

And 50% of people would go "Huh? Just a Million Pounds, I am severely disappointed".

Bottomline 50% of people are just plain negative, the other 50% talk in sweeping generalisations ;p

How do you come to that opinion, when MANTIC was the one that promised the rose garden and is now serving up turds?

They could have left it alone with just a box or two, and added from there. Instead they are changing the plan halfway through when this stuff should be in my hands right this second.

How many months are we already behind? "Just one more time, Just one more time..." doesn't cut it when they pushed thier game as hard as they did. They distinctly gave the impression that this stuff was ready to go, and the next stuff was in the pipe.

Until they get thier !@#$ together, they can stay in the "Here is my million pounds, it sits nice in my pocket while I pee on your shoes" line.

I wouldn't get too hung up on their release schedule. I think the quality of the models is more important. Unfortunately, I'm not sold on the models.

Unless you pre-paid for a bunch of stuff that was promised to be in your hands by now? if that is the case I can agree with you.

Kroothawk wrote:Still curious if you can use SciFi miniatures in a Warpath game or if they will look out of place

ZING!

WTF?

Mantic have never said anything other than "Marauders in October, Boxset in November, Forgefathers in December".

Those are the release dates that they stated months ago, and those are the release dates that they are meeting successfully.

There are no delays. At least complain about something that actually exists rather than something you've just made up.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Still curious if you can use SciFi miniatures in a Warpath game or if they will look out of place

ZING!

Dohohohohohoho!

Sigh