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@Melissia
What have you heard that the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire?

Sisters actually would be fairly competitive with a FAQ updating their points cost to 5th ed costs. Other main issue is ranged anti tank really just falls on Exorcists assuming you don't ally in Guard.

Avariel wrote:Sisters actually would be fairly competitive with a FAQ updating their points cost to 5th ed costs.

Read the rumor post I quoted.

The biggest hit is no divine guidance for anything but Retributors, which noone will take because they're taking Exorcists instead. Celestine also takes a nasty hit in that her revival ability goes from an unmodified leadership check at Ld10 to a 4+ on a roll of d6. Celestians will still be a unit with assault stats and abilities but shooty weapons. Retributors will still fail to compete with Exorcists. Repentia will still suck because they'll die easily to ranged attacks and they'll be easy to tarpit due to Rage. Etc etc etc.

I seriously doubt Sisters will be half the cost. A BS3 henchman with carapace armor and a bolt gun is 8 points. Sisters get BS4 and power armor. At best I see them being 10 points and the veteran sister upgrade to be free. Maybe free frag/krak grenades too. Assuming the book stays, each unit will be 24 points cheaper. 39 points cheaper with a 35-point rhino. And that's a very generous estimate. Pretty good disposable troop choices I suppose. The biggie will be what faith they get.

Seraphim getting assault 2 flamer pistols (so S3 AP6 like BA?) or melta pistols (I guess range 6 infernus pistols?) is nice, but again we need more details on faith mechanics.

Units of death cult assassins that can re-roll attacks and wounds is pretty sweet too.

Overall, the sky isn't falling yet, but I'm sure Sororitas players would have preferred to wait another year or whatever to get a proper book rather than languishing for a decade.

Thawn's "I shall not Yield" is leagues above Celestine's current return ability.

Celestine has a chance to NOT come back if you fail a leadership roll and if she does pass and pop back in from reserve she counts as deepstriking meaning she can not assault or move.

Thawn will ALWAYS come back, each turn after his demise on a 4+ he pops back up, and he can act as normal when he does so. That means you can move, shoot, and assault. The only thing that can stop him from returning is the game ending. Thawn returns with his wounds intact, but he does only have 1 wound to start so that remains iffy.

I'd love for Celestine to have Thawn's rule. She might actually be useful at that point.

As to the proposed changes to faith.. I do not like what is rumored so far. Greater simplicity with faith is well and good, but the specialization of some of those faith powers do not sit well with the squads they are assigned to support.

Yeah, Celestine with a 4+ every turn, as opposed to the Ld check, and then being put in reserve, is way better...

IMO, it could change board dynamics... if she is fairly decent in CC or has some anti-tank, when she dies she could potentially start driving folks away from the spot she dropped... problem for them is, she can move 12".

Thawn-Celestine is way better... depending on what else she will have.

*Edit* Forgot to say: Thawn has one massive advantage though... he can hold and contest objectives.

Melissia wrote:

Omegus wrote:Roll 4+ and he gets back up with a 1" reposition.

Ah, so it IS a nerf of Celestine's abilities.

So basically aside from Repentia, Sisters just got a bunch of nerfs based off of that rumor. And, MAYBE celestians... whom will still be shooty units with assault stats. Yay.

Not necessarily a nerf. If she doesn't suck faith like a vaccuum cleaner, it might be ok. At least this way she doesn't go back into reserves and have to deep strike in again.

The problem with comparing individual Sister models to IG, is that the IG have a much better array of weapons and vehicles at hand. I'd be happier with 11 point models if they could get plasma guns, autocannons, and lascannons.

In the end, the new rules will turn on the new faith rules, which are still pretty unclear, and which units have which acts. Why they felt that they needed to specify acts by unit I have no idea, as most people won't remember which act goes with which unit anyway.

You know, Retributors need an act that makes them relentless. That might make them worth taking, if we had some easy way to give them a transport or forward deployment.

Melissia wrote:the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire.

Now that is one weird mental image - how could you tell it was on fire?

Nevermind me

Revarien wrote:Honestly, it all comes down to point costs...

I really wish GW would try to get the flavour right first, then adjusting points costs to suit. The "nerf the bastards, then make them dirt cheap because they suck" approach we've seen on the Necron statlines and now sounds like what's happening to the Sisters just makes for unenjoyable armies.

Also i thought Thawn came back on a 3+, and it is EVERY game turn until you succeed. Not a one shot deal.

Add in eternal warrior so she doesnt fold like a wet biscuit to my Grey knights / pretty much everyone else and she may be worth taking.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Eumerin wrote:But the general impression I get is that GW's current policy is to get players to believe that everything gets "updated" in a "timely" fashion.

Timely? 12 years waiting for Dark Eldar? 9 years for Necrons? 8 years for Sisters? If that's their idea of timely, I shudder to think what their idea of slow is.

But don't you see? Next summer it'll have been less than two years since the Dark Eldar got a new codex! And roughly a year since the Sisters got their new "codex"! And assuming that the Necrons get their codex before 6th comes out... you get the drift. Yes, I'm of the opinion that the Sisters WD 'dex will be a joke and an insult, but it'll be enough to allow GW to claim with a straight face that Sisters aren't being allowed to languish.

Dysartes wrote:

Melissia wrote:the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire.

Now that is one weird mental image - how could you tell it was on fire?

Because it would look like this? It's a picture from a simulation of a Black Hole with flammable gas being sucked into it.

Melissia wrote:the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire.

Based on...?
Because of...?
Due to...?

How do you know these things, or is your SES acting up again?

My wet-dream money is on an 'assault on sanctuary 101' style starter kit... SoB vs Necrons... aww yeah..

Phototoxin wrote:My wet-dream money is on an 'assault on sanctuary 101' style starter kit... SoB vs Necrons... aww yeah..

We all dream about that.

Marthike wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:My wet-dream money is on an 'assault on sanctuary 101' style starter kit... SoB vs Necrons... aww yeah..

We all dream about that.

Not all of us.

TBD wrote:

Marthike wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:My wet-dream money is on an 'assault on sanctuary 101' style starter kit... SoB vs Necrons... aww yeah..

We all dream about that.

Not all of us.

You are either a liar or a heretic... either way you only deserve damnation and purgation with holy fire!!

Melissia wrote:

Avariel wrote:Sisters actually would be fairly competitive with a FAQ updating their points cost to 5th ed costs.

Read the rumor post I quoted.

The biggest hit is no divine guidance for anything but Retributors, which noone will take because they're taking Exorcists instead. Celestine also takes a nasty hit in that her revival ability goes from an unmodified leadership check at Ld10 to a 4+ on a roll of d6. Celestians will still be a unit with assault stats and abilities but shooty weapons. Retributors will still fail to compete with Exorcists. Repentia will still suck because they'll die easily to ranged attacks and they'll be easy to tarpit due to Rage. Etc etc etc.

But Retributors, Penitent Engines and Repentia will be FANTASTIC since they will be almost exactly the same as they are now, not like how they suck now!!!


Too be fair Retributors don't suck they are just outclassed by the other heavy support choice, which will be exactly the same in the new WD. It's not like Space Marine players are going crazy filling their heavy slots with heavy bolters so I don't see how the chance to get rending on ours is going to make us that excited. Seriously I don't know how a game designer can look at the Engines and Repentia and think the reason they don't ever get bought is because they just don't hit hard enough in combat and is the only thing that needs fixing. It shows a fundamental disconnect from how people play. I'm really hoping that there is some connecting piece of this puzzle that is missing. Maybe the power of regular Battle Sisters is the invul but looking at the current rumors it's probably something silly like +2 strength, strike last.

If their answer is just "nerf the majority of the Sister list (and make weird stupid buffs) but lower points costs a bunch so you can spam a ton of models" they can eat crow when the average decade old sister model is $6 and special weapons are $10.

I REALLY don't like the faith rumors. The old style faith was a powerful, unique tactical tool that you could use to turn the tide of battle a critical point. Unreliable unit upgrades add nothing to the fun of playing the army.

kestral wrote:I REALLY don't like the faith rumors. The old style faith was a powerful, unique tactical tool that you could use to turn the tide of battle a critical point. Unreliable unit upgrades add nothing to the fun of playing the army.

It was hardly reliable before, really, owing to the unit size mechanic.

A Sanctuary 101 starter would give me models for both of my armies and would please me no end, but alas, I fear 'tis not to be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Melissia wrote:the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire.

Based on...?
Because of...?
Due to...?

How do you know these things, or is your SES acting up again?

Google failed me on SES. So now I'm curious... Sisters Ego Syndrome?

Anything that is not her codex in print will 'suck like a black hole which is also on fire.' Even then, I'm pretty sure she'd have a lively 'discussion' about why her codex doesn't accurately portray the awesome that is sisters.

Oh, and since we haven't said it in a page. OH NOES PANIC SISTERS RUMORS!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sanctuary 101 a massacre (as far as we know), rather than a battle?

Slinky wrote:

kestral wrote:I REALLY don't like the faith rumors. The old style faith was a powerful, unique tactical tool that you could use to turn the tide of battle a critical point. Unreliable unit upgrades add nothing to the fun of playing the army.

It was hardly reliable before, really, owing to the unit size mechanic.

Not entirely true. Proper list building stacks things in your favor. i.e. Full 10 Sisters squads hardly fail Divine Guidance. Seraphim squads in groups of 8 are good at all faith checks due to their special rules, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sanctuary 101 a massacre (as far as we know), rather than a battle?

lexicanum wrote:
Sanctuary 101 was an Adepta Sororitas Fortress-Convent on a world on the Eastern Fringes. It was the first place of contact between the Imperium and the Necrons. All the Sisters inside the Santuary were killed and had their skin flayed by the Necrons. Video picts were recorded during the battle, but only showed the Sisters being cut down by flickering shadows, indicating that the Necrons distorted the images.

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sanctuary 101 a massacre (as far as we know), rather than a battle?

There was a battle, but there was a CLEAR victor

AlexHolker wrote:I really wish GW would try to get the flavour right first, then adjusting points costs to suit. The "nerf the bastards, then make them dirt cheap because they suck" approach we've seen on the Necron statlines and now sounds like what's happening to the Sisters just makes for unenjoyable armies.

But that would mean having some degree of long-term thinking, and we all know GW executives go through a mind-wipe indoctrination process that burns out all imagination and foresight. Well, unless you could the wet dreams of 12-yo boys that result in things like Draigo.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Also i thought Thawn came back on a 3+, and it is EVERY game turn until you succeed. Not a one shot deal.

Add in eternal warrior so she doesnt fold like a wet biscuit to my Grey knights / pretty much everyone else and she may be worth taking.

It's a 4+, but he gets to keep trying every turn.

Ixquic wrote:
If their answer is just "nerf the majority of the Sister list (and make weird stupid buffs) but lower points costs a bunch so you can spam a ton of models" they can eat crow when the average decade old sister model is $6 and special weapons are $10.

Hmm... maybe they do have some foresight after all. If a rhino-based Sisters squad is now 150 points or so, you basically will take six of them for lack of anything else to spend the points on. So 12 special weapons = $120, 48 regular bolter sisters = $288... you're looking at over 400 clams just for ~700 points of troops. That's WFB-level of cost/point ratios!

Revarien wrote:Honestly, it all comes down to point costs... yeah, at current points, they'd be terrible... absolutely horrendous.

Half all their points and they'd be horribly broken (cept for repentia, who would be about 'right')...

People already whine, piss and moan when I break out the Sisters, because they "can't be killed reliably"... or whatever... but now they'll be dieing in even broader swaths. If the points are adjusted accordingly though, then it's won't be too horrible.

What you've got here is true, except that shattering faith and cheapening the units is just a shift of the Sister from being very unique, to being Guard with power armor and bolters. IMO thats a very bad thing.

My concerns aren't even about if they'll competitive or not (I enthusiastically play Tau already ). I'm just worried the army is going to lose its soul/essence (for lack of a better word). Much more numerous Sisters may not be horrible, but being bland/boring or 'ordinary' is worse than being horrible.


I do think all the comments on BoLS are kinda funny, everyone thinks the rumored rules are making Sisters super awesome. 9 Penitent Engines? awsome!!!!.... uh excuse me, we can already do that, and no one is going to shell out over $300 for 9 Penitents (except the guy that already has 9). Rending Heavy Bolter Teams!!!! they compete with our only ranged anti-tank, and we already had a similar setup. You can tell which players actually use Sisters.

Creeping Dementia wrote:
I do think all the comments on BoLS are kinda funny, everyone thinks the rumored rules are making Sisters super awesome. 9 Penitent Engines? awsome!!!!.... uh excuse me, we can already do that, and no one is going to shell out over $300 for 9 Penitents (except the guy that already has 9). Rending Heavy Bolter Teams!!!! they compete with our only ranged anti-tank, and we already had a similar setup. You can tell which players actually use Sisters.

Seriously it's really weird reading people excited for stuff we already have.

Creeping Dementia wrote:

Revarien wrote:Honestly, it all comes down to point costs... yeah, at current points, they'd be terrible... absolutely horrendous.

Half all their points and they'd be horribly broken (cept for repentia, who would be about 'right')...

People already whine, piss and moan when I break out the Sisters, because they "can't be killed reliably"... or whatever... but now they'll be dieing in even broader swaths. If the points are adjusted accordingly though, then it's won't be too horrible.

What you've got here is true, except that shattering faith and cheapening the units is just a shift of the Sister from being very unique, to being Guard with power armor and bolters. IMO thats a very bad thing.

My concerns aren't even about if they'll competitive or not (I enthusiastically play Tau already ). I'm just worried the army is going to lose its soul/essence (for lack of a better word). Much more numerous Sisters may not be horrible, but being bland/boring or 'ordinary' is worse than being horrible.


I do think all the comments on BoLS are kinda funny, everyone thinks the rumored rules are making Sisters super awesome. 9 Penitent Engines? awsome!!!!.... uh excuse me, we can already do that, and no one is going to shell out over $300 for 9 Penitents (except the guy that already has 9). Rending Heavy Bolter Teams!!!! they compete with our only ranged anti-tank, and we already had a similar setup. You can tell which players actually use Sisters.

Well, yeah... I love how the current system works, but while I even printed out a copy for whomever I play against, it has become a massive joke of "is it over or under?... ah, well that depends on how many sisters he has! lolz" etc... (Since I only test if it is most likely a sure thing, it tends to be in my favor every time). So, IMO, I think the faith thing could certainly be reworked for the better: now is this system proposed better? Doubt it, but it does seem like the mechanic is better... just not the options.

Also, yeah, I have 3 penitent engines... and OW that hurt to buy the 3 (and was probably one of the worst pinning/modeling experiences I've ever had with models...). I can't even imagine putting together, let alone spending all that money, on 6 more.

But yeah, last thing I want them to be is guard in power armor... *sigh*

Revarien wrote:
But yeah, last thing I want them to be is guard in power armor... *sigh*

I think that regardless of how faith points work out, they won't end up being "Guard in power armor" any more than they're "Eldar in power armor" - in other words, they're still going to have their own niche.