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I know about the council of nikkea and how 'is majesty forbade most psykers and even marine psykers.

Now most marines use psykers and even the inquisition has psy inquisitors and their aids.

I don't know when this got changed. Too late for magnus to be sure. Anyone know when the emperor finally admitted he was wrong and changed it?

It didn't. Chapters simply just ignore it (while some don't, like the Black Templars, but that's not really due to Nikaea) and the Emperor isn't around to order Russ to enforce it.

The Council of Nikaea also didn't decree on the Imperium at large, it simply prohibited the Legions using Psykers outside of Navigators and Astropaths. Astartes were prohibited from their own abilities.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I know about the council of nikkea and how 'is majesty forbade most psykers and even marine psykers.

Now most marines use psykers and even the inquisition has psy inquisitors and their aids.

I don't know when this got changed. Too late for magnus to be sure. Anyone know when the emperor finally admitted he was wrong and changed it?

The emperor never admitted he was wrong. For one thing, he wasn't in a position to afterwards.

Post Heresy, it simply stopped being enforced. Guilliman planned to have it abolished after Calth, but apparently never got around to it. Chapters just stopped paying attention to it on an individual basis. Technically speaking the Black Templars are keeping to the decision of the Council by not having Librarians. Practically speaking, everybody else is glad to have librarians around for daemon-busting.

----

Its worth noting that it isn't part of the original background. Russ got sent after the Magnus and the sons because it was clearly they were sorcerers studying magic, despite being otherwise loyal, not because of some council meeting. The earliest reference to Nikea that I can find are in the Index Astartes articles from 2001 (the WD articles, not the bound volumes that were published a couple years later).

So the out of universe explanation is actually that its retcon nonsense that didn't exist when librarians were first written up or for the first couple editions of the game.

Wow, fast replies. This is definitely a place to go for answers fast.

So old Reroll had the backbone to rule against daddy? Good for him!

I guess the inquisition just decided to use psy inquisitors and aids because who's going to bust them, right?

Yeah, technically the prohibition is against the use of psykers within the Legiones Astartes, and they're no longer a thing since the Imperium moved on to the Adeptus system.

The Council of Nikaea crumbled the moment the Legions found themselves up against Daemons during the Heresy. When they realized that they were by far the most effective tool available at combating them they made use of them. By that point the purpose of the decree, to keep the Thousand Sons in line, was obsolete anyway.

Animus wrote:
Yeah, technically the prohibition is against the use of psykers within the Legiones Astartes, and they're no longer a thing since the Imperium moved on to the Adeptus system.

Yep. The Adeptus Astartes are not bound by the Nikea judgement for the same reason Christians are not forbidden from eating pork.

Voss wrote:
I know about the council of nikkea and how 'is majesty forbade most psykers and even marine psykers.

Its worth noting that it isn't part of the original background. Russ got sent after the Magnus and the sons because it was clearly they were sorcerers studying magic, despite being otherwise loyal, not because of some council meeting. The earliest reference to Nikea that I can find are in the Index Astartes articles from 2001 (the WD articles, not the bound volumes that were published a couple years later).

So the out of universe explanation is actually that its retcon nonsense that didn't exist when librarians were first written up or for the first couple editions of the game.

As I recall in those WD articles, the Edict of Nikaea didn't even forbid the use of psychic powers, it forbade the use of sorcery. Despite my dislike of the HH novels, the SW/Thousand Sons novels got that part right, at least.

At least on the 40K wiki, it states that at the Council of Nikea a compromise was proposed allowing Legions to maintain a Librarius, however this was rejected by the Emperor.
The experience of the Legions during the Heresy showed that it was difficult to fight warp creatures without access to or understanding of psychic abilities.

Following the Heresy, Guilliman decided to write the Codex Astartes as we know. The compromise initially proposed at Nikea was included in this text, which was then imposed on the rest of the Imperium.
The requirement for each Chapter to maintain a Librarius is specifically called for by the Codex.

So whilst the edicts of Nikea were never officially repealed, I think we can cite the Codex Astartes Issue 1.0 as the point at which Imperial policy was changed.

Bran Dawri wrote:

Voss wrote:
I know about the council of nikkea and how 'is majesty forbade most psykers and even marine psykers.

Its worth noting that it isn't part of the original background. Russ got sent after the Magnus and the sons because it was clearly they were sorcerers studying magic, despite being otherwise loyal, not because of some council meeting. The earliest reference to Nikea that I can find are in the Index Astartes articles from 2001 (the WD articles, not the bound volumes that were published a couple years later).

So the out of universe explanation is actually that its retcon nonsense that didn't exist when librarians were first written up or for the first couple editions of the game.

As I recall in those WD articles, the Edict of Nikaea didn't even forbid the use of psychic powers, it forbade the use of sorcery. Despite my dislike of the HH novels, the SW/Thousand Sons novels got that part right, at least.

Of course the line between psychic and sorcery is razor thin. It's literally whether or not you like what's being done with it a lot of the time.

Its one of those occasions, where a rule is made that is dumb, super dumb, and everyone knows it is, so they pay lip service to it, while completely ignoring it in reality.

I think the real answer is, when the VII'th almost lost the Phalanx. This close call changed Dorns mind. When the lord of stone looked the other way, Nikea jumed the Carcharodon.

When did they nearly lose the Phalanx?

pm713 wrote:

Of course the line between psychic and sorcery is razor thin. It's literally whether or not you like what's being done with it a lot of the time.

There is, theoretically, a definition against which you can make a legal judgement, if you look through the Old FFG Rpgs.

'Psychic Power' is your....natural (if you can use that word) psychic potential, trained or otherwise. Untrained psykers are "witches" or "wyrds".

It becomes sorcery when you're using some external source of power - an artefact, blood sacrifice, thrall psykers, or patron/bound daemon to surpass the 'normal' limits of that potential.

At the same time, it is the sort of thing open to interpretation. Does a psychic hood count as an artefact? It shouldn't, because it doesn't provide 'power', just act as a focus. But how about a relic force weapon? How many centuries of a chapter's librarius focusing warp energy into it before it becomes a residual power source in its own right?

If I recall correctly, the Emperor decreed that the Legions would hold no psykers. M42 has no Legions, it has chapters. Ergo, not applicable. #loopholes?

Malcador himself points out once the loyalists have broken it , the Emperor says nothing so Dorn et al can take that as it being okay now Horus deceit is revealed.

They nearly lost the Phalanx to Alpha Legion/Daemons before the siege of terra. The exiled imperial fist librarians leave isolation and lead a counter attack.

Technically, the council only applied to the Legions. The legions don't exist anymore. Loopholes FTW!

The Adepta Sororitas, who are definitely not “men under arms,” applaud the Imperium’s long and noble tradition of legal loopholes and nitpickery.

 SisterSydney wrote:
The Adepta Sororitas, who are definitely not “men under arms,” applaud the Imperium’s long and noble tradition of legal loopholes and nitpickery.

Sadly the new codex ret-cons this reason for the Adepta Sororitas, instead having Sebastion Thor declare the Brides of the Emperor to be an exception to the decree passive, making the Adepta Sororitas a direct reimplementation of the Brides.

The Marines Malevolent still adhere to at least part of the edicts of Nikea, as evidenced in the salamanders novel by Nick Kyme. So in addition to them never being repealed, at least a few chapters shun psykers based on those rather than a general zealous hatred for them.

"That honour is mine." Pyriel stepped forward from the throng of Salamanders, authority and certainty never more evident in his voice and manner.

"A warp dabbler!" Dakir heard one of other Marines Malevolent hiss. He carried a twin-linked combi-bolter and wore a beak-shaped battle-helm made to look like a shark's mouth with painted fangs either side.

Lorkar interceded before Tsu'gan's promised violence was enacted.

"Excuse Brother Nemiok," he said addressing Pyriel, who exhibited no reaction. "We are unaccustomed to Librarians in ranking positions," Lorkar explained somewhat thinly. "The Marines Malevolent still adhere to some of the tenets laid down at Nikea."

jareddm wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
The Adepta Sororitas, who are definitely not “men under arms,” applaud the Imperium’s long and noble tradition of legal loopholes and nitpickery.

Sadly the new codex ret-cons this reason for the Adepta Sororitas, instead having Sebastion Thor declare the Brides of the Emperor to be an exception to the decree passive, making the Adepta Sororitas a direct reimplementation of the Brides.

not specificly mentioning something does not mean retconning it out of existance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Coolyo294 wrote:
The Marines Malevolent still adhere to at least part of the edicts of Nikea, as evidenced in the salamanders novel by Nick Kyme. So in addition to them never being repealed, at least a few chapters shun psykers based on those rather than a general zealous hatred for them.

"That honour is mine." Pyriel stepped forward from the throng of Salamanders, authority and certainty never more evident in his voice and manner.

"A warp dabbler!" Dakir heard one of other Marines Malevolent hiss. He carried a twin-linked combi-bolter and wore a beak-shaped battle-helm made to look like a shark's mouth with painted fangs either side.

Lorkar interceded before Tsu'gan's promised violence was enacted.

"Excuse Brother Nemiok," he said addressing Pyriel, who exhibited no reaction. "We are unaccustomed to Librarians in ranking positions," Lorkar explained somewhat thinly. "The Marines Malevolent still adhere to some of the tenets laid down at Nikea."

note though he specificly says "in positions of command" which suggests they have Libbies, but may simply treat them differantly. perhaps they lock them in cells until/unless their talents are needed?

 Matt Swain wrote:
I know about the council of nikkea and how 'is majesty forbade most psykers and even marine psykers.

Now most marines use psykers and even the inquisition has psy inquisitors and their aids.

I don't know when this got changed. Too late for magnus to be sure. Anyone know when the emperor finally admitted he was wrong and changed it?

It was never repealed.

The Black Templars were the last loyalist Marines keeping the Nikea Decree, pre-6th Edition retcon when the Black Templars got "rolled" into the SM Codex and suddenly lost their history, lost their reason for not having psykers (and now revere the witches as "Emperor touched"), and, just incidentally, went from Marines that kept the Imperial Truth (better than most of the others) with an independent Crusade fleet and being the size of a pocket Legion to a bunch of idiotic Empie worshiping loons. Now they are simply whiny little bitches who don't know why Empie took their witches away and wished Empie would give them back. On the tabletop, they became Just Another Marine Chapter with a different paint job, a funky Troop choice and crappier special rules than Ultramarines, but otherwise, were just like them.

The Inquisition gets its psykers because they were set up, along with the Grey Knights, by Malcador to combat warp spawn. Yes, there are technically three main inquisitorial groups vs. xenos, heretics and demons, but all inquisitors end up fighting all three categories plus anything else.

Girlyman wrote the Codex Astartes for two major reasons IMO. First, it was a simple bureaucratic way to break up the power of the Legions so they couldn't rebel in power like they did and in consequence, turned the mighty bulwarks against threat to the Imperium into a bunch of tiny picket fences. (Yes, I stole that from TTS) The second was to do some bureaucratic shyster lawyering in advance against the Nikea decree. After all, if the Legions couldn't have Librarians anymore, if there are no Legions, but only Chapters, then the decree doesn't apply, right?

But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light. - Emperor of Mankind

The second point above makes a whole lot more sense than the attempts to justify the break back to Librarians was because there is some special kind of witchery called sorcery and Nikea was all about Magnus. Which is even more tenuous shyster lawyering that the "there are no more Legions My Lord Emperor" excuse.

FWIW, outside of this and the reason behind the lore... GW fethed up badly (yet again) by not keeping track of what the codex and BL writers were doing and found themselves in serious fertilizer over the entire Nikea sequence. Definitely the reverse of "working as intended". What they ended up with is pretty much every loyalist as an actual traitor to the Emperor (yes, fixable, but...) except for the Black Templars, who had rejected witches. In the meantime, the Black Templar were also one of the Chapters that was pushing towards Legion size and doing so more openly the the rest (mostly, the Space Wolves are a question with their Great Companies of variable size and large classes of Blood Claws required to keep the numbers up). They were also independent of any control by the Imperium with their Crusade fleet having its own forge and factory ships along with a large "serf" population of humans. Slowly but surely the Black Templar were arguably becoming the linchpin Space Marine group. Was not to be allowed, especially since they were threatening Matt Ward's Smurf Marines and their "greatest of them all" title.... even though that was only in numbers.

That's a pretty tortured interpretation. Nikea wasn't part of the original background and the BT were basically spawned out of nothing years after that. Their only relevance is GW tried to exploit the popularity of their 'fail forward' rules to sell more models.

Librarians were a fixture of SM long before the whole Nikea thing or the BT were invented, there was never a 'break back' to them

As to the BTs embracing psykers and thereby destroying the 40k universe Maybe it went like this:

After losing yet another vital objective or battle due to a lack of psykers ("What? This vital gate is locked by psychic force? Only a wretched vile witch could possibly open it? Cursed witchcraft, 'tis the blame for our inability to secure the vital resource behind this psychic locked gate! We shall never embrace the corruption of the warp tainted! We will accept defeat before corruption!") an inquisitor or someone else with a lot of power said "Look, you idiots, that's the 8th time you've failed to secure a vital objective because you refuse to use psykers like every other chapter does, and it's the last time. You either get your heads out of your and use psykers or we terminate your chapter, repaint your armor, weapons, gear and ships for a chapter that isn't terminally stupid."

They had a sudden revelation that the emperor OK'ed psykers fo them then and there.

algesan wrote:
On the tabletop, they became Just Another Marine Chapter with a different paint job, a funky Troop choice and crappier special rules than Ultramarines, but otherwise, were just like them.

In other words, they reverted to the way they were portrayed in the 2E UM codex, the 3E SM codex, and the 4E SM codex (IIRC they aren't portrayed with any specific traits in that book) prior to getting their own book at the end of that edition before being folded back into the 6E SM codex, except they got to keep their mixed Troops unit. Specifics like that change, just as my Iron Warriors can't take Basilisks anymore and can take as many FA units as they want, Chaos Raptors aren't their own unique Cult anymore, Obliterators aren't rare unique 0-1 Elites units, my Guard don't have access to Chem Inhalers or Drop Troops, etc, getting too married to such specifics is always going to give one heartburn, and it's not like BT's were particularly competitive powerhouses with their own codex.