New rumours on Chaos Legions (latest on pages 30, 32 and 34; compilation in first post)

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**H.B.M.C.**

aka_mythos wrote:I imagine whenever the chaos daemon codex is revisited we're going to see a number of undivided daemons

I doubt that very very much.

'Chaos Undivided', as a concept, is being weeded out of the game.

**candy.man**

I’ll have to agree with HBMC based on my personal observations of the fluff entries in the Daemons codex. The overall focus of the book was the 4 gods and the Furies fluff entry alluded to the idea that chaos undivided as a whole was rare and that being a Chaos Fury was a type of punishment.

Whilst I think it would be cool to have more undivided stuff, the current fluff direction GW is taking seems to say otherwise. If we’re lucky though, we might see Chaos Furies in the book as a fast attack choice.

**DarkStarSabre**

GentlemanGuy wrote:Gotrej and felix were in the 4th edition dwarf book and mentioened way before trollslayer was released

Ragnar Blackmane was in the 2nd edition codex as mentioned above

Thanquol and boneripper were in the skaven armybook since 4th edition

I feel the need to correct this. People seem to think that Trollslayer is a product of the late 90s...

It's actually a reprinted collection of short stories - some of which date back to the 1980s predating 4th edition.

**aka_mythos**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:I imagine whenever the chaos daemon codex is revisited we're going to see a number of undivided daemons

I doubt that very very much.

'Chaos Undivided', as a concept, is being weeded out of the game.

Whether its "Chaos Undivided" (not worshiping any particular facet of chaos) or the new "Chaos United" (worshiping the full pantheon with equal vigour)... I think daemons with no particular affiliation make sense. Furies are one, and they do show undivided daemons exist. I don't believe GW would do tons of new undivided daemons, only one or two. Realize when I say "undivided daemons" I am inclusively refering to non-god specific daemon engines, like the soul grinder, and to things like FW greater sized chaos spawn, even though I know strictly speaking isn't a daemon. These would be the larger models that they couldn't justify producing if they only appealed to specific chaos god daemon players.

The only true "undivided daemon," in the way you seem to have previously interpreted me, I'd like to see revisited is the non-god specific version of nurglings from the Lost and the Damned, the "Gibbering Hoard" as I think it goes a long way towards establishing that sense of chaos and power hierarchy... that an unruly mass of little daemons are effectively undivideds lesser daemons and significantly weaker than the god allied ones. These guys are effectively the left over residue of energies that normally coalesce to form other daemons.

Conceptually the Daemons codex is currently limited. The god specific daemons are pretty much established... so to do something new with what's established means either taking some older established concept and reworking it, like say taking the older muscle-bound bloodletters and redoing them as a different stock of elite bloodletters... or taking older concepts and blending them, like making horror's mounted on screamers. If they choose to stick solely to god specific daemons, they would likely need to invent new daemon units... intermediate daemons half way between lesser and greater daemons would be the most straightforward.

**H.B.M.C.**

Look I want there to be Chaos Undivided in its full glory as it was in the 3.5 days - and I want my Gibbering Hordes from the EoT Codex, and my Greater and Lesser Daemons of Chaos Undivided from Codex: Daemonhunters - but I think you'll find that 'Undivided' as a concept is no longer applicable, and instead you'll start seeing 'unaligned' in its place.

**aka_mythos**

I realize its not completely the same thing, but I'm just using "chaos undivided" synonymously with your meaning of "chaos unaligned"

**tarnish**

Undivided daemons have always been in the fluff, but its another thing entirely to have models for them. Its one thing to write them out (which is not happening) but they might opt to simply not mentioning them.

**H.B.M.C.**

And Pariahs were part of the Necrons for a decade.

My point is don't get too attached to what's come before. It can and will change.

**aka_mythos**

I'm not that attached to any particular idea... heck the only unit I was remotely insistant on can just be done "count as" very easily. I just think the Chaos Daemons army needs to have a more thematic center. Right now its just a blob of different daemons inexplicably working together, with major gaps in capabilities. If GW wants to make it all about the Chaos gods, then it needs more units from them to make single god armies mostly viable, but in that case to keep it thematically united there needs to still be at least some common core of units to draw from.

**IronfrontAlex**

Does anyone remember the Word Bearer series?

The WB legion treat chaos like a pantheon I believe at one point in the first book there are screamers circling a main character and he proclaims that Tzeench is on their side this day yadda yadda. Earlier in the book though A few guardsmen and cultists are transformed, posessed, by furies, so yeah the punishment think works for undivided, but not all undivided.

**H.B.M.C.**

Yes but they were worshipping all Chaos Gods equally, not worshipping 'Chaos Undivided' as a single entity. That's the point I'm trying to get at. One shouldn't look at the Word Bearers as being unaligned, but rather look at them as being aligned with all four!

aka_mythos wrote:I just think the Chaos Daemons army needs to have a more thematic center. Right now its just a blob of different daemons inexplicably working together, with major gaps in capabilities.

Which is one of the reasons I refer to that Codex as "Codex: Unnecessary". The whole conceptual basis of its in-game mechanics don't make sense. All of these daemons just work with one another, and under the lead of a Daemon from a rival god? And they all just appear out of thin air, and there always just happens to be an army there waiting for them? Everything about that book annoys me.

I like the idea of Daemon World armies, but the method of execution that GW has chosen is lazy at best.

**Blackhoof**

I do agree that it is strange for ALL the daemons to come out of the warp. it is logical that they would appear near enemy armies, so that they can attack them, but mostly non-daemon armies would be attacking daemon incursions where the daemons are already running rampant, so....

**H.B.M.C.**

It only gets worse when you try and make them work with Planetstrike as the defender...

**MasterSlowPoke**

Eh, that makes enough sense. There's enough examples out there of attacking forces descending upon an enemy poisition, finding it desolate, and then upon some probing, are attacked on all sides by an ever growing horde.

**Durza**

Brother SRM wrote:
candy.man wrote:
I worry about the Matt Ward rumour as it means we’ll get some weird story about “Ahriman carving Magnus’ name into Eldrad’s brain” as well as a bunch of special characters that lack the IC rule.

Oh man, that's so funny, clever, and totally not run into the ground. Definitely need to hear that joke in every thread. If Ward writes it it will probably be fine.

Ahriman's eccentric enough as it is. Killing an organisation for its library, which he then burns to the ground?

**aka_mythos**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes but they were worshipping all Chaos Gods equally, not worshipping 'Chaos Undivided' as a single entity. That's the point I'm trying to get at. One shouldn't look at the Word Bearers as being unaligned, but rather look at them as being aligned with all four!

So you're making the distinction that Word Bearers are polytheistic while true "chaos undivided" worshipers are monotheistic. In the new order of things, it works, but in the past GW did use the term in a more catch-all sort of way, so its going to be a difficult assertion to impress upon everyone.

**English Assassin**

kronk wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:Why the hell would GW release plastic plague marines or raptors? they just made the old sculpts into fincast (and increased the cost obscenely) . That would be a waste of money on their part.

As a hold over until the plastic kits are ready to be released with the Chaos codex, which could be 8 months away.

They were losing money with the high cost of metal and had to make the change. Couldn't wait.

(That's conjecture on my part, I admit.)

It's not inconceivable, but given that there must be costs associated with the change from metal to Finecast (striking new moulds from the old masters, one presumes) it would seem rather counter-intuitive to spend that time and money on models soon to be replaced. I would expect that anything we've seen Finecasted isn't going to be resculpted any time soon. My inference would thus be that Abaddon will presumably continue with his Napoleon complex for another edition, but that we might, unless we see them rereleased in Finecast before the codex is announced, expect the rest of the named characters who (excepting Huron, a newer sculpt and now Finecast) are all 1996 sculpts (and showing their age) to be redone.

-Loki- wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:[Ragnar Blackmane(not sure if he had models before the Bill King novels, but the novels date to about the same time as Gotrek and Felix, Darkblade, etc).

Ragnar Blackmane was in the 2nd edition Space Wolves codex, with a model. I remember, because my brother fielded him all the time. The Bill King books were released after that.

Ragnar (and Ulrik and Njal) are older than that, they were part of the Space Wolves list published in White Dwarf 150-something for Rogue Trader.

DarkStarSabre wrote:
GentlemanGuy wrote:Gotrej and felix were in the 4th edition dwarf book and mentioened way before trollslayer was released

Ragnar Blackmane was in the 2nd edition codex as mentioned above

Thanquol and boneripper were in the skaven armybook since 4th edition

I feel the need to correct this. People seem to think that Trollslayer is a product of the late 90s...

It's actually a reprinted collection of short stories - some of which date back to the 1980s predating 4th edition.

Spot on.

Finally, Commisar Yarrick and Ghazghkull Thraka were both cardboard counters in 'Battle for Armageddon' for a time before getting models and rules for Warhammer 40,000 (indeed Ghazghkull was a minor character in 'Waaargh the Orks!' for some years before that).

**Kroothawk**

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
Brother Dimetrius wrote:A thought occurred, if ADB claims that they are very strict on their IP management for the HH characters (and I see no reason why they shouldn't be), doesn't that kill the idea of a 30k supplement that Ghost alluded to for the short/medium term?

That's not quiiiiiiiite what I'm saying, but I see your point. It's not a matter of strict IP management, and more just a matter of good sense and respecting each other's boundaries. My comments on the rumours were on three topics:

1. I'm not being anything like as specific as the above quote. All I'm saying is that given how the Heresy team and the IP lords have only just decided who several major Heresy-era characters are (and some still haven't had their fates decided), it'd be unlikely they showed up in a Chaos Codex.

2. I also find it unlikely they'd break Chaos Space Marines into two codices.

3. And, lastly, that it's claimed Mat Ward is writing it, when several people have spoken to Mat Ward at GDUK and reported on forums that he specifically said he wasn't writing it. That's not even my rumour, it just seems to have been lost in the mix, despite being shared elsewhere.

Just to be clear: I'm avoiding any mention of actual information I may or may not have heard, and I'm not commenting on a 30K supplement at all - which would be the case whether there was never going to be one, or it was gonna be announced tomorrow with me as lead developer. I only commented in this thread at all because I found it bizarre my identity was being called into question due to a related conversation on another forum, and I was getting quoted here in terms of stuff that had come at the end of a long, long debate elsewhere. It needed some context.

My only other comment was to suggest that ghost21's rumours were to be taken with a pinch of salt given those three things to consider. Admittedly, because of the vagueness (and general apparent likelihood - new minis, etc.) of a lot of those rumours, it's likely a lot of them would be true even if plenty weren't, but you can probably trust me that three I mentioned are most definitely "unlikely". That's literally all I've said on the subject.

Apologies for restating that for clarity, but I really don't wanna get misquoted on any of this. I've been very careful (you have to be, when talking about this stuff - I regret ever opening my mouth about it), and my comments originally on B&C were purely in my perspective on what was likely as a member of the HH team.

Which was commented on Warseer by:

decker_cky wrote:So really what you're saying is that you're writing the 30k supplement, right?

massey wrote:I think he also confirmed a plastic Thunderhawk as well.

thewickedworm wrote:Sounds like he also confirmed something about space dwarves. . .

Officials posting on forums don't have it

**wyomingfox**

It's like playing Telephone with those guys over at warseer

Ghost didn't mention anything about a 30K supplement (as in a codex or rule book). He mentioned the possibility of a box set of models.

Ghost21 wrote:30k boxed set at some point, containing one of each of the legions characters

As in something like this:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1490654&prodId=prod1140240

**sennacherib**

lets be clear on something. I really hope matt ward gets hit by a meteor befor he comes anywhere near a chaos codex. he writes stupid fluff. Just saying.

**Castiel**

Anyone know the incantation for Comet of Cassandora?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh wait, wrong game system!

**silent25**

English Assassin wrote:
Finally, Commisar Yarrick and Ghazghkull Thraka were both cardboard counters in 'Battle for Armageddon' for a time before getting models and rules for Warhammer 40,000 (indeed Ghazghkull was a minor character in 'Waaargh the Orks!' for some years before that).

Ghazghkull Thraka was created by Andy Chambers and was the name of his Warboss for his Ork Warband. Created in a White Dwarf article using the rules in the first "Waaargh the Orks" book. Article was reprinted later in either Ere We Go or Freebooter. Can't remember which. Sadly don't own any of the books

**Dysartes**

sennacherib wrote:lets be clear on something. I really hope matt ward gets hit by a meteor befor he comes anywhere near a chaos codex. he writes stupid fluff. Just saying.

A, So what would be new for a Chaos 'dex?
B, I suspect that the majority of the people who bandwagon'd onto the hideous 3.5 effort weren't doing so for the background.

**Durza**

Personally, I liked the 3.5 codex. It had variety.

Also, Draigo's law just got upheld.

**DarkStarSabre**

Dysartes wrote:
B, I suspect that the majority of the people who bandwagon'd onto the hideous 3.5 effort weren't doing so for the background.

I'm one of the few who did.

My original Death Guard army was based on the IA article with the old 3rd ed. Chaos Codex and when that made its way into the 3.5 book I was overjoyed.

It was all infantry, in squads of 7. The only 'vehicles' were Dreadnoughts. It was very Terminator heavy. Sure, there were some broken combinations with Daemon Weapons - Manreaper was obscene...but now? Every single Daemon Weapon is a Manreaper with bonus effects.

The Rhinos and Vindicator were recent editions due to the way the new edition forced armies to start working. I don't like them. I never will. But it because pointless trying to adhere to the Infantry advance fluff when all things did was drive around in circles and Plasma/Starcannon you to death because your points hiked upward and FNP actually suffered a nerf between 4th edition (when the current codex was released) and 5th edition.

**Dysartes**

Durza wrote:Also, Draigo's law just got upheld.

Draigo's Law?

**Durza**

Draigo's Law: As a thread increases in length, the probability that someone will hate Draigo and/or Matt Ward approaches 1.

Blatantly stolen from someone who I can't remember at the moment.

**warboss**

Dysartes wrote:
I suspect that the majority of the people who bandwagon'd onto the hideous 3.5 effort weren't doing so for the background.

I'm sure at least a few joined the forces of chaos for the ability to ROFLstomp almost every opposing army even if played with a house rule forcing the player to ignore any sixes they roll. That codex had plenty of choice for players to run vastly different builds but somehow locally we only saw the 2 or 3 that were the most incredibly broken when combined with 3rd edition rules. I'd be curious to see how that old book would play now versus 5th edition books; I'd hazard a guess that it would still be quite competitive. Either way, I'm hoping that the next attempt will be middle ground between the previous two versions when played with the upcoming 6th edition rules.

**Samus_aran115**

Dysartes wrote:
sennacherib wrote:lets be clear on something. I really hope matt ward gets hit by a meteor befor he comes anywhere near a chaos codex. he writes stupid fluff. Just saying.

A, So what would be new for a Chaos 'dex?
B, I suspect that the majority of the people who bandwagon'd onto the hideous 3.5 effort weren't doing so for the background.

Eh, I don't agree. The fluff in the book wasn't terrible, but it was a little 'out there' in terms of grimdark, I guess. It's my favorite, but that might have something to do with the embroidery all over the edges of the pages

The 3rd edition codex (which I have right next to me) isn't very good, in fact it's worse in some places. I like where special characters are explained, but aside from that, the fluff pertaining to legions is terribad. BUT, there wasn't much supplement at that point, so I forgive them. Chaos was left more to your imagination back then. More emphasis was placed on creativity and it encouraged you to create your own chaos army.

So. Just from my observations of all three codexes, I'd bargain to say that the fluff is getting better, book to book. I don't think matt ward could do too much wrong. Even since the 4th edition book was released, there's been a massive influx of chaos writing (Most HH stuff could be twisted around to work), so as long as he sticks to vaguely established writing, it should turn out all right.

But we know that Matt Ward isn't writing it, since ADB said so, right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'm sure at least a few joined the forces of chaos for the ability to ROFLstomp almost every opposing army even if played with a house rule forcing the player to ignore any sixes they roll. That codex had plenty of choice for players to run vastly different builds but somehow locally we only saw the 2 or 3 that were the most incredibly broken when combined with 3rd edition rules. I'd be curious to see how that old book would play now versus 5th edition books; I'd hazard a guess that it would still be quite competitive. Either way, I'm hoping that the next attempt will be middle ground between the previous two versions when played with the upcoming 6th edition rules.

Agree with whole post. The 3.5 dex had some UBERROFLSTOMP builds, but more importantly, it allowed you to make an army that really felt "CHAOOOOOOOOOSSSSS"y. If it was OP, then that was fine, but at least it was a good army build.

I read the 4th edition book first, then the 3.0 dex. And I was thinking to myself "Why isn't chaos like this? 1k sons are better, noise marines are good, and Juggernauts add two toughness!"... But then I read the 3.5 dex... And it felt like I had really hit the goldmine. Everything I saw was absolutely perfect. Veteran skills, champions, special weapons. Perfect. And the fluff was good too. Better than the 3.0 dex

**English Assassin**

silent25 wrote:
English Assassin wrote:
Finally, Commisar Yarrick and Ghazghkull Thraka were both cardboard counters in 'Battle for Armageddon' for a time before getting models and rules for Warhammer 40,000 (indeed Ghazghkull was a minor character in 'Waaargh the Orks!' for some years before that).

Ghazghkull Thraka was created by Andy Chambers and was the name of his Warboss for his Ork Warband. Created in a White Dwarf article using the rules in the first "Waaargh the Orks" book. Article was reprinted later in either Ere We Go or Freebooter. Can't remember which. Sadly don't own any of the books

You are indeed correct! A check of the precious tomes in my bookcase confirms that Ghazghkull was indeed the sample Goff Warboss in 'Ere We Go! - the Warboss who appeared in Waaargh the Orks! was in fact Nuzzgrond Nosebiter, boss of the Goffs on Nuzzgrond's World, in which book the much-missed Makari the grot also made his first appearance.

Significantly to this discussion, both of the aforementioned books are more entertaining reads than the forthcoming Chaos codex is likely to be.