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Or Living metal could be the same as the Venerable rule for SM Dreads. Glancing only would be pretty broken on an AV14 vehicle. Hopefully they will change the way the weapons work so that it is actually possible to get a Weapons destroyed result on the damage table.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

@Ozy: Venerable would work too.

Or the Holofield rule.

Whatever it is, Keep It Simple, Stupid!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Actually, Living Metal should simply be:
- all hits count as Glancing

An indestructible tank that has S10 ordnance... Fantastic idea.

Necrons need a fighty Dreadnought type model, and Jump Packs get it where it needs to be. Fills 2 of the big holes in the Necron line with a single model.

The Tomb Spyder is the Necrons' "fighty dreadnought type model" and IMO all it needs are more dramatic poses for the model.

I disagree with the entire notion that necrons would be bouncing around the battlefield like a bunch of retards. It's not their M.O. They phase. They teleport. They will themselves elsewhere. Jump Packs for Necrons?? Really?! The most technologically sophisticated army in the game hasn't discovered a better way to get around???

Better than them spending all of their time walking on foot...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Better than them spending all of their time walking on foot...

Not really.

The slow but inevitable advance is a Necron signature. IMO they should stay that way.

They have plenty of jetbike type units anyway to compensate for the infantry's lack of mobility.

Archonate wrote:The slow but inevitable advance is a Necron signature. IMO they should stay that way.

They have plenty of jetbike type units anyway to compensate for the infantry's lack of mobility.

Couldn't agree with you more. With the Monolith, various DS-ing units and the Veil of Darkness (which I'm amazed more folks don't complain about) we can get around the table fairly well. Add 4 (5 if you count Destroyer Lords) units that can move as jetbikes and we seem very mobile indeed.

Now, if they'd move some of those jet bikin' units to the Troops section we'd all be happy.

Random thought time :

Keep wraiths at their current size, maybe up to five in a unit, give them an extra wound, and upgrade to warscythes.

Make Flayed ones troops, give them power-weapons.

Make pariahs into the dreadnought type model (I'm willing to go ahead and purchase those again.)

Throw in a new vehicle, Obelisk works fine. Let it come in squads, and/or combine firepower much like the Eldar Fire Prism.

Give Necrons FNP for the individual, but then let them keep WBB in a different form. When the squad is removed, give them the option to come out of one of the Monoliths on the table. (On a 4+ the necrons that were phased out are repaired and returned to battle, or replaced by a waiting squad, reentering through a monolith on the table.)

Give them all stubborn, and relentless USRs.

Leave Gauss as is, with the exception of being AP1 vs vehicles only.

Disruption Field - Let it do same as gauss weaponry, though I wouldn't object to it being a 'rending' upgrade so that the army has some CC ability, and disruption field becomes usefull.

Make the Immortals weaponry AP3, since every army seems to have some.

Give heavy destroyers the option of a S10, AP1 single shot, or a S5, AP2 Heavy 3 (perhaps with an upgrade.) Same number of models in the unit.

Scarabs are fine, really the only additions I'd like to see (outside of the disruption field boost), is someway to move through terrain with more safety, or eternal warrior.

Wow that would make them damned near unstoppable. Some of the things sure but if all were used it would be a small army indeed as it would cost a ton of points per model. Just saying...

dancingcricket wrote:Random thought time :

Keep wraiths at their current size, maybe up to five in a unit, give them an extra wound, and upgrade to warscythes.

Make Flayed ones troops, give them power-weapons.

Make pariahs into the dreadnought type model (I'm willing to go ahead and purchase those again.)

Throw in a new vehicle, Obelisk works fine. Let it come in squads, and/or combine firepower much like the Eldar Fire Prism.

Give Necrons FNP for the individual, but then let them keep WBB in a different form. When the squad is removed, give them the option to come out of one of the Monoliths on the table. (On a 4+ the necrons that were phased out are repaired and returned to battle, or replaced by a waiting squad, reentering through a monolith on the table.)

Give them all stubborn, and relentless USRs.

Leave Gauss as is, with the exception of being AP1 vs vehicles only.

Disruption Field - Let it do same as gauss weaponry, though I wouldn't object to it being a 'rending' upgrade so that the army has some CC ability, and disruption field becomes usefull.

Make the Immortals weaponry AP3, since every army seems to have some.

Give heavy destroyers the option of a S10, AP1 single shot, or a S5, AP2 Heavy 3 (perhaps with an upgrade.) Same number of models in the unit.

Scarabs are fine, really the only additions I'd like to see (outside of the disruption field boost), is someway to move through terrain with more safety, or eternal warrior.

Point by point:
1) Wraiths: Yes to the unit size increase, but no to the warscythes. I still say give 'em power weapons, representing their claws phasing through armor. While the warscythes would be a big boost in power, they don't seem to fit in with the concept of the Wraith, ie, immaterial killer. How would the weapon phase with them?
2)FO's: Yes to making them troops, no to power weapons. Rending please; once again, it seems to suit the model and the background better, IMHO.
3)Pariahs: Hmmm...I'd really like to avoid any of our stuff being turned into the "Necron version of X". Instead make the Pariahs work as they are now. Maybe +1A and +1I?
4)New vehicles: See earlier in this thread.
5)FNP vs WBB: I've weighed in on this before and I still say keep WBB, just make the rules a little clearer for those who seem to have difficulty understanding them.
6)Subborn and Relentless: I don't know about Stubborn, but Relentless would be cool. The only thing it would really do is allow Warriors to shoot 24" whether they move or not. That seems to fit with the slowly advancing tide of metal terrors thing.
7)Gauss: No problems with the AP1 thing.
8)Disruption Fields: I never use 'em, but if these kind of changed were made I might start. Adding Rending would require a boost in points, though.
9)Gauss Blaster's AP3: Yes, Lord, please! I'd be willing to pay a few more points if I knew that I could take down MEQ with a little more regularity.
10)Heavy Destroyers: No problem with that suggestion. Makes them even more of a threat to enemy tanks, but would it also render the Destroyer obsolete?
11)Scarabs: I don't think they need any tinkering. Keeping them as is would be fine with me.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks for the excellant thoughts.

talthar wrote:9)Gauss Blaster's AP3: Yes, Lord, please! I'd be willing to pay a few more points if I knew that I could take down MEQ with a little more regularity.

That might fit fluff, but we all know it would annihilate game balance. No standard issue rifle should ever be better than AP5.

talthar wrote:1) Wraiths: Yes to the unit size increase, but no to the warscythes. I still say give 'em power weapons, representing their claws phasing through armor. While the warscythes would be a big boost in power, they don't seem to fit in with the concept of the Wraith, ie, immaterial killer. How would the weapon phase with them?

Warscythes ARE phase blades. It's probably the fluffiest weapon they could possibly have.

Why is the solution for any bad melee-unit giving it rending and call it a day. The Flayed ones seem perfect for a simple upping of the attacks, maybe A3 or A4. Do you really think they can carve up a battle tank with those claws?

Gauss Blasters AP3? No thanks, would make them too expensive pointswise. They are fine at the moment.

Heavy destroyers would better work with S10 Ap1 H1 or S5 AP2 H2, otherwise they interfere with destroyers as talthar said.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. Oh, and the jump infantry dreadnought idea is stupid.

It would be nice to get new troop choices....

Well, depending on your army, the Monolith can be the bane of your very existance. Ever tried fighting a game where the enemy has a 'lith and you're an all-CC Tyranid army? I didn't think so. Any army with a lascannon is spoiled in this regaurd. You really don't know how good you have it.

The monolith needs some kind of Nerfing. Sure, it would be nice to have all of those options, but as it stands now, a 'lith is waaay too inexpensive for how effective it is. Maybe have an option to tag on all of those extra goodies for a few more points each, and that way, you can have the 'lith with all of the things you're used to, it'll just cost more. And you can have a cheaper one if you so desire, as a basic beacon, or heavy fire support, or what have you.

I'd say it would be too bad if they took away the C'Tan as a 40k option. Hell, I'd like to see even more C'Tan, like the Outsider, brought into the fold.

Anyway, Necrons were never meant to have a good CC option, as I see it. Perhaps make Pariahs better (And I'd say as they are, I'd take flayed ones out of the game completely. They just don't seem to suit the army at all, to me), give the 'crons some sort of grenade-ish option, and that's about all you need. Necron strategy has never ever been reliant on CC, and I'd like it to stay that way (And hey, if you run into CC fielding a Necron army, at least they're not exactly ill-suited to it. Just very slow).

I love how every one with a brain agrees that Necrons need a boost to be even close to competitive, but people still cry because there ONE good thing gives them a challenge.

I generally like the changes that I see proposed.

But, I think things like Living Metal and We'll Be Back (WBB) need to be greatly simplified. Both rules have one or more paragraphs describing the rule, plus FAQ clairifications, and people still get confused.

Certain units need to be tweeked (flayed ones, Wraiths, etc.). But the only two units I want to see major changes to are the Pariahs and the C'Tan. The Pariahs need to be Necrons (WBB/FnP, teleport options, etc.) otherwise they don't snyc with the force and Immortals are a better alternative for the Elite choice. C'Tan should be removed from the codex and put into Apoc. They are living gods! They are supposed to be extremely powerful masters of real space that have no equal in the material realm. No more "my uB3r sW0rd of DetH juzt 'instant killed' yEr g0d!!!"

~Logic

I say leave the wraith attack type as is, with the following change....any unsaved wound causes Instant Death (provided you are not immune to it normally of course).

Perhaps my line of think is a bit off, but I can't help imagining that having a metal hand suddenly appear in your chest would be inherently fatal?

Any unsaved wound causes D3 extra wounds might be better maybe, instant death is so final and grand. Though they would make nasty character and elite killers.

Anyone having trouble with the Monolith should just ignore it and focus on phase out. Also, for 235 points, it had better be pretty indestructible.
And, GW, can it please deep strike like a drop pod. I'm tired of one corner being on impassable terrain and exploding.
Also, it would be cool if Wraiths had a wargear option that let them take power weapons. Like +10 points for power weapons, +25 for warscythes.
I had no idea the Spyder was such a hotly contested creature. Sure he's ugly, but it's what's on the inside that counts; and the inside is full of nurturing maternal instincts and scarabs.

gorgon wrote:

talthar wrote:1) Wraiths: Yes to the unit size increase, but no to the warscythes. I still say give 'em power weapons, representing their claws phasing through armor. While the warscythes would be a big boost in power, they don't seem to fit in with the concept of the Wraith, ie, immaterial killer. How would the weapon phase with them?

Warscythes ARE phase blades. It's probably the fluffiest weapon they could possibly have.

Yes, the scythe portion is a phase blade, but what about the long stick to which it's attached? I can see the Wraiths phasing through some woods, and there is a loud clatter when the poles hit the ground...

One good aspect of them carrying warscthyes would be to give them a Grim Reaper look, perhaps reflections of the Nightbringer. But I still like power weapon claws.

I think instead of WBB, they should allow other Necrons to repair dead ones, and Scarabs (and/or Spyders) within 6" gives you a +1 bonus. Like with Techmarines, see?

talthar wrote:One good aspect of them carrying warscthyes would be to give them a Grim Reaper look, perhaps reflections of the Nightbringer. But I still like power weapon claws.

If I ever play Necrons, I'm totally gonna convert my wraiths to have a scythe arm...

I think the big mistake they made with the Necrons was
to make metal units.Building a Necron army is an horrific
cost.What they should have done was release all units
in plastic.Immortals etc are just too expensive to build
up in reasonable unit sizes.

Slipstream wrote:I think the big mistake they made with the (40k) was
to make metal units. Building a (40k) army is an horrific
cost. What they should have done was release all units
in plastic. (Models) are just too expensive to build
up in reasonable unit sizes.

Broadened the spectrum a bit.

Slipstream wrote:I think the big mistake they made with the Necrons was to make metal units.

Building a Necron army is an horrific cost.

What they should have done was release all units in plastic.

Immortals etc are just too expensive to build
up in reasonable unit sizes.

Huh? If Necrons were plastic-only, they'd be Warriors, Destroyers, Scarabs, and Monoliths. Hardly a diverse range of models for an army.

Compared to what? Sisters of Battle which is nearly all-metal, but without the benefit of plastic Troops, and requiring more models overall? Imperial Guard using the old metal figures or FW DKoK? Necrons are supposed to be Warrior-heavy, and plastic Necrons give a good value in points per dollar.

It is only recently that GW has had the ability to produce an all-plastic line of models, and that is only reserved for their largest-selling line - Space Marines.

Immortals have never been cheap. But then, perhaps you don't recall the 2E Necrons which were all metal.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Slipstream wrote:
Immortals have never been cheap. But then, perhaps you don't recall the 2E Necrons which were all metal.

We do not speak of the dark days

This is all a long way off, as it has been confirmed the next three 40k releases are codex/supplement/codex. With sources on warseer saying imperial guard/planetfall (can't remember name) / space wolves. So the necrons are a while out still, so anything about the rules should be subject to change, although anything about models will be more accurate, as the development of plastic kits takes a long time.

talthar wrote:
Point by point:
1) Wraiths: Yes to the unit size increase, but no to the warscythes. I still say give 'em power weapons, representing their claws phasing through armor. While the warscythes would be a big boost in power, they don't seem to fit in with the concept of the Wraith, ie, immaterial killer. How would the weapon phase with them?
2)FO's: Yes to making them troops, no to power weapons. Rending please; once again, it seems to suit the model and the background better, IMHO.
3)Pariahs: Hmmm...I'd really like to avoid any of our stuff being turned into the "Necron version of X". Instead make the Pariahs work as they are now. Maybe +1A and +1I?
4)New vehicles: See earlier in this thread.
5)FNP vs WBB: I've weighed in on this before and I still say keep WBB, just make the rules a little clearer for those who seem to have difficulty understanding them.
6)Subborn and Relentless: I don't know about Stubborn, but Relentless would be cool. The only thing it would really do is allow Warriors to shoot 24" whether they move or not. That seems to fit with the slowly advancing tide of metal terrors thing.
7)Gauss: No problems with the AP1 thing.
8)Disruption Fields: I never use 'em, but if these kind of changed were made I might start. Adding Rending would require a boost in points, though.
9)Gauss Blaster's AP3: Yes, Lord, please! I'd be willing to pay a few more points if I knew that I could take down MEQ with a little more regularity.
10)Heavy Destroyers: No problem with that suggestion. Makes them even more of a threat to enemy tanks, but would it also render the Destroyer obsolete?
11)Scarabs: I don't think they need any tinkering. Keeping them as is would be fine with me.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks for the excellant thoughts.

1) Yeah, I'd say warscythes still. Not necessarily on long sticks, but with their claws having the same effect. They are phasing in and out all by themselves, and it seems to fit more. Ignoring invulnerable saves is nice, but not so overwhelming unless your fighting daemons. The 2d6 armor pen just means that you don't have to rely on disruption fields, and makes sense, since they can go out of phase, stick their hands into the engine, fuel, reactor, or ammo bins, and do mean things...

2) I'm ok with rending, so long as the rule about needing to role morale to assault/hit them on other than 6's changes to roll leadership instead, so all the fearless units out there don't ignore the one thing you have thats supposed to make you dangerous in CC. If rending were still all that, people wouldn't be talking about genestealers being nerfed, and my 60 daemonette army would have been much more viable.

3) Pariahs, I say a dreadnought type body. Partly to give the necrons another vehicle. Partly because it makes a bit more sense. The necrons really want to promote the psychic null ability of the necrons, and if you're keeping it as where they don't get the Necron ability, then putting them in something that's large, and heavily armored (and maybe enchances their psychic null ability), while keeping the biological parts that you need alive and supported, makes a lot of sense.

4) Which new vehicles are you looking at? I'm looking for something that adds a bit more offensive capability.

5) I like WBB myself, but it leaves a bunch of vulnerabilities. FNP and a 'orb' nearby that allows you to take it no matter what, gives you a much better chance when that bloodletter, spacewolf, or banshee squad, all bristling with higher init and powerweapons than you have, run into your line. A WBB ability on top of it, some way to have a chance to replace the squad, would really increase the survivability of the army, and help justify their cost.

6) Stubborn - well fearless makes sense, but so does stubborn. After several millenia, and with the ability to be repaired, I doubt that they're overly worried about being shot, stabbed, slammed, run over, or blown up. Relentless is a definite. But then, I figure Tau Firewarriors should get relentless as well, just so they can try to keep their distance while actually using their range.

7) Gauss - glad you like it.

8) Yeah, I never use them either. Between VoD and the monolith, on the rare occasion that I did get in CC with a dread (and I survive/don't get swept away), then I just take my WBB, Teleport out of CC, and rapid fire the dread to death.

9) AP3 is showing up in several places, seemed like something to set the Immortals apart.

10) Don't think it would render the Destroyer obsolete. Your still not looking at very many of them, they cost more, have a lower S on the weapon in multifire mode, if the Gauss suggestion I made is taken as well you're still getting more shots off and a decent chance of taking out tanks with a regular destroyer, and you're not taking a monolith with all the utility it has, or a tomb spyder with the utility we hope for. And if you make the multishot a upgrade, it'll cost even more.

11) Scarabs - I think they need something. Maybe just clarification so that they can get their movement into/through terrain. Nothing as bad as powerweapons, we'll leave that to nurglings in an epedimius list. But there needs to be a little something, because I don't see them used too often. If you have the points for a few swarms, you definitely have the points for another warrior or two, which increases your phase out number, has ranged weaponry, WBB, gauss, and isn't vulnerable to blasts. Right now most people that use them at all, use them as speedbumps, provided they survive long enough to get to whatever you want to slow down. With a low toughness, and being vulnerable to blasts, swarms, in my experience, well, drop like flies (couldn't resist.) Eternal warrior would make it so they really bog things down, high str wouldn't automatically kill a base. A S6 small blast covering 3 swarm bases would kill 2 bases, not 6. And it would have a downside, since the swarm can't be teleported away from the CC, if it's a stalemate, you need to wade in to clear out the foe, which might be important if you need to claim that objective, or wipe them out in order to get a clear victory in a KP mission.

I agree about the tomb spider, when i got one i ended up breaking its legs by accident trying to make it look cooler... However if you go on forge world there this new necron model there ive forgotten wat its called but its looks awesome i think it will be the new tomb spider ITS STRONGER TOO