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Honest answer here is with GW it doesn't bother me so much, but with a company like Avatar of War, it is really bad as it could well drive them out of business. The smaller alternative companies are more likely to be badly hurt by this. Also theres a huge difference between reselling something and stuff for your own use.

skkipper wrote:no I have not made any models yet. The time/work involved with casting is more expensive then buying the GW figs.
200 sisters are around $500-$600
I could just go to work on a saturday and bring home more.
scratchbuilding a copy of a model and selling it is the same as casting one and selling it.
since GW is "cool" with scratchbuilding copies for personal use, they then by befault are cool with somebody making copies of their models for personal use.
there is no legal difference between scratchbuilding a copy and casting a copy. a copy is a copy.

...

Actually there is a difference between the two activities.

As a copyholder, GW are entitled to grant exceptions to their copyrights. They are fully entitled to allow you to make a scratchbuild copy out of greenstuff, which is so time-consuming that no-one would bother, while denying you the right to make a cast copy, which is relatively easy and enables you to produce lots of copies once your mould is done.

if I started selling squads of space marines I sculpted on e-bay. GW would shut me down.

why consider it?
well there are models you just can't buy anymore in quanities to build an army out of.
making recasts for yourself is the same as scratchbuild copies.
try to sell scratchbuilt titans as a business GW will shut you down. why? because the scratchbuilt is infringing their IP. am i wrong. Several companies have been shut down for selling "titans" though they were scratchbuilt

yes, and them being hard to find is called tough luck.
i plan on making a stealer cult soon, i wont be re-casting everything, i will be doing what everyone else does and buy them (mainly from ebay)
that does not justify a reason to break C.

yes, but this is about basic models, you added titans into the discussion.
they are very different from casting basic GW models.


and once again, scratch builds and re-casts are nothing alike, one if a close design made from scratch, re-casting is stealing a models design.


so which is it?
you defend re-casting models.
but you wouldnt buy a re-cast model.

skkipper wrote:why consider it?
well there are models you just can't buy anymore in quanities to build an army out of.
making recasts for yourself is the same as scratchbuild copies.
try to sell scratchbuilt titans as a business GW will shut you down. why? because the scratchbuilt is infringing their IP. am i wrong. Several companies have been shut down for selling "titans" though they were scratchbuilt

And there is the rub.

The companies were shutdown for selling knock off Titans. Note the word SELLING.

Now, if GW have ever sold something, whether it is still available or not is largely immaterial. The real deal is out there. If you cannot afford it, or cannot find it, you can convert it up or scratch build it. At this point, as long as you have not cast up any part from an existing GW model, you have created your own work of art. The IP there is yours.

But, if one simply recasts, whether for profit or purely private use, you have infringed on GW's copyright. Hence my suggestion of the morally netural approach of buying GW models, and melting them down to pour into your desired mold. You get the model you were after, GW still get their money. It's still illegal, but if push came to shove, and assuming one could prove it, I don't see legal things going any further.

Designing and sculpting or converting your own model is 100% Legal however. Why can't you see this, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

Alright lets go on to topic of personal use.

The purpose of "personal use" to recast is masking the simple fact of " but but but GW is soooooo expensive~ *whine" ( unless you are recasting your OWN designs )
but if you are recasting GW designs then ^

What is GW? its a stupid hobby, not a necessity . Too expensive? dont get into it , simple as that.

To try to justify recasting minis because of price issues,
seriousely how sad is that.

And having a store copy of rule book for everyone to handle / share publicly is NOT the same as say distributing the photocopies to every so they dont need an original rule book to own.
Its just a convenience so everyone dont have to drag and carry a book to store they play at.
But this is done assuming everyone already have an existing copy at home.

skkipper, if you sold them as scratch built space marines then the chances are it would be fine, if you made them yourself with GS or another agent then there shouldnt be a problem.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Designing and sculpting or converting your own model is 100% Legal however. Why can't you see this, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

this is not true. if you add GW symbols or other trademarked items to your scratchbuild you are infringing on GW's IP. if you scratchbuild a model from greenstuff then add a blood angels symbol to its shoulder pad, you can not sell them

You guys all should know and remember "
http://www.sciborminiatures.com/ right?

Now he is above all of you recasters. He even sculpted
what he started with then recasted to sale.

He is still taken down. why? well think about it yourself.

Centurian99 wrote:

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

We're talking about apples and oranges here. If you come over to my house and take my paperback book and copy all the words in it onto notepaper that you take with you, you haven't stolen my book. If you take a picture of my 40k collection, that's not stealing my 40k collection. If you see my 40k collection and you make your own copies of it, that's not stealing other.

STEALING requires that you deprive someone of what was theirs. I think music downloads and what the RIAA has done (and the beating that they are suffering in court now) is hilarious. Downloading an mp3 isn't stealing. There's an argument for copyright infringement, but it is NOT stealing. You're not depriving someone of their copy of the music anymore than you would be stealing to go into an art museum and take a picture of a painting.

You're familiar with generics right? Providing the same or a similar product for less money? If someone sees my squad of Stormboyz and says, "OMG...you paid $100 for 20 plastic toyz?!?" and then goes out and makes similar or identical models that don't say Games Workshop on them, that's competition. If they turn around and sell their competing product to potential gamers as "generic ork toys" or something, who then use them in Warhammer 40k or another game...that's competition.

If they put the Games Workshop tag on it, that's trouble. But if you think you can make a competing product to someone else, and do so cheaper without infringing on Games Workshop's copyrights, that's good business. You can make a model that looks like Ghazghkull Thraka and call him Orky McOrk.

Again - its neither my business nor anyone else here how GW pursues its patents / copyrights, nor does it matter where the person across the table from me got their models. I'm not trying to have a competition of who has designer made army men, I'm trying to play a game and have fun.

which is why you build models for personal use rather than to sell

so scratch building a whole army is fine.


re-casting it is a direct copy of it, so no.

skkipper wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Designing and sculpting or converting your own model is 100% Legal however. Why can't you see this, or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

this is not true. if you add GW symbols or other trademarked items to your scratchbuild you are infringing on GW's IP. if you scratchbuild a model from greenstuff then add a blood angels symbol to its shoulder pad, you can not sell them

Why on earth would adding GW symbol to scratch builds used in warhammer game settings be infringing?

from scibor minatures:

Scibor Monstrous Miniatures company manufactures miniatures and bases for different kinds of war games, role playing games as well as for collectors
We also take painting and sculpting commissions. Moreover we take commissions for sculpting miniatures patterns for a production. We don not accept any commissions for conversions or custom sculpts based on Games Workshop Ltd. IP rights

Dashofpepper wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

We're talking about apples and oranges here. If you come over to my house and take my paperback book and copy all the words in it onto notepaper that you take with you, you haven't stolen my book. If you take a picture of my 40k collection, that's not stealing my 40k collection. If you see my 40k collection and you make your own copies of it, that's not stealing other.

STEALING requires that you deprive someone of what was theirs. I think music downloads and what the RIAA has done (and the beating that they are suffering in court now) is hilarious. Downloading an mp3 isn't stealing. There's an argument for copyright infringement, but it is NOT stealing. You're not depriving someone of their copy of the music anymore than you would be stealing to go into an art museum and take a picture of a painting.

You're familiar with generics right? Providing the same or a similar product for less money? If someone sees my squad of Stormboyz and says, "OMG...you paid $100 for 20 plastic toyz?!?" and then goes out and makes similar or identical models that don't say Games Workshop on them, that's competition. If they turn around and sell their competing product to potential gamers as "generic ork toys" or something, who then use them in Warhammer 40k or another game...that's competition.

If they put the Games Workshop tag on it, that's trouble. But if you think you can make a competing product to someone else, and do so cheaper without infringing on Games Workshop's copyrights, that's good business. You can make a model that looks like Ghazghkull Thraka and call him Orky McOrk.

Again - its neither my business nor anyone else here how GW pursues its patents / copyrights, nor does it matter where the person across the table from me got their models. I'm not trying to have a competition of who has designer made army men, I'm trying to play a game and have fun.

Stealing count as depriving something that belongs to others right?
You know, for someone as educated ( compared to my awful english and generally considered stupid in this forum )
i can atleast tell you this.

What did we steal by counterfeiting? You steal the artist's time that designed the miniature , and sculpted the miniature.
You stole something that GW has built and have reputations up from .

Everything has a value, you just arnt acknowledging them , or maybe you are turning a blind eye on it. I dont know.

skkipper wrote:from scibor minatures:

Scibor Monstrous Miniatures company manufactures miniatures and bases for different kinds of war games, role playing games as well as for collectors
We also take painting and sculpting commissions. Moreover we take commissions for sculpting miniatures patterns for a production. We don not accept any commissions for conversions or custom sculpts based on Games Workshop Ltd. IP rights

EXACTLY and what made you think scribor end up in this state not able to touch GW items?

you do know in the past, they make the BEST space marine lines right? GW will never have that type of
quality done any time soon.

LunaHound wrote:
Alright lets go on to topic of personal use.

The purpose of "personal use" to recast is masking the simple fact of " but but but GW is soooooo expensive~ *whine" ( unless you are recasting your OWN designs )
but if you are recasting GW designs then ^

What is GW? its a stupid hobby, not a necessity . Too expensive? dont get into it , simple as that.

To try to justify recasting minis because of price issues,
seriousely how sad is that.

And having a store copy of rule book for everyone to handle / share publicly is NOT the same as say distributing the photocopies to every so they dont need an original rule book to own.
Its just a convenience so everyone dont have to drag and carry a book to store they play at.
But this is done assuming everyone already have an existing copy at home.

Oh man you sure showed them! Little kids who likes the game but can't afford it? GTFO LITTLE KID GO PLAY YOUR CHEAPER PLAYSTATIONS! We warhams players are a fine, cultured, and most of all exclusive lot. We stroke our noble neckbeards, dusting our cheeto-incrused fingers before sipping Mountain Dew from a fine glass. We look down upon the lesser nerds who simply cannot afford our fine hobby of playing with toy soldiers.

I hope you pay full price and not buy from internet discounters.

stonefox wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
Alright lets go on to topic of personal use.

The purpose of "personal use" to recast is masking the simple fact of " but but but GW is soooooo expensive~ *whine" ( unless you are recasting your OWN designs )
but if you are recasting GW designs then ^

What is GW? its a stupid hobby, not a necessity . Too expensive? dont get into it , simple as that.

To try to justify recasting minis because of price issues,
seriousely how sad is that.

And having a store copy of rule book for everyone to handle / share publicly is NOT the same as say distributing the photocopies to every so they dont need an original rule book to own.
Its just a convenience so everyone dont have to drag and carry a book to store they play at.
But this is done assuming everyone already have an existing copy at home.

Oh man you sure showed them! Little kids who likes the game but can't afford it? GTFO LITTLE KID GO PLAY YOUR CHEAPER PLAYSTATIONS! We warhams players are a fine, cultured, and most of all exclusive lot. We stroke our noble neckbeards, dusting our cheeto-incrused fingers before sipping Mountain Dew from a fine glass. We look down upon the lesser nerds who simply cannot afford our fine hobby of playing with toy soldiers.

Wow, i cant believe what im reading. But you know what? If i cant afford the miniature and i must play , i 'll use shoe box for tanks
i'll use cotton balls for my units.

Ew, i'll even use piece of paper with the units writte on it ( easier done for fantasy battles)

I dont look down on people that cant afford to play. I look down on excuses for example, yours.

stone, are you allways this much of an idiot?
luna said nothing like that.
your now twisting it into your own wording.


and it is pretty bloody simple, if you cant afford something, then you dont buy it!


i cant afford a ferrari!
but i dont whine and moan about it, i get on with life.

In legal terminology, stealing and theft are deprivation of physical property.

Copyright violation is not theft, it is a civil offence. That doesn't make it right.

ok, once again since you ignored it:


what would happen if i photocopied the mona lisa painting and tried to sell it as the origional product?

what would happen if i painted my own pic of the mona lisa then sold it as my own work?

Kilkrazy wrote:In legal terminology, stealing and theft are deprivation of physical property.

Copyright violation is not theft, it is a civil offence. That doesn't make it right.

Thank you!
like i said im stupid! I dont know the legal terms and such,
but i know right from wrong!

Dashofpepper wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

We're talking about apples and oranges here. If you come over to my house and take my paperback book and copy all the words in it onto notepaper that you take with you, you haven't stolen my book. If you take a picture of my 40k collection, that's not stealing my 40k collection. If you see my 40k collection and you make your own copies of it, that's not stealing other.

STEALING requires that you deprive someone of what was theirs. I think music downloads and what the RIAA has done (and the beating that they are suffering in court now) is hilarious. Downloading an mp3 isn't stealing. There's an argument for copyright infringement, but it is NOT stealing. You're not depriving someone of their copy of the music anymore than you would be stealing to go into an art museum and take a picture of a painting.

You're familiar with generics right? Providing the same or a similar product for less money? If someone sees my squad of Stormboyz and says, "OMG...you paid $100 for 20 plastic toyz?!?" and then goes out and makes similar or identical models that don't say Games Workshop on them, that's competition. If they turn around and sell their competing product to potential gamers as "generic ork toys" or something, who then use them in Warhammer 40k or another game...that's competition.

If they put the Games Workshop tag on it, that's trouble. But if you think you can make a competing product to someone else, and do so cheaper without infringing on Games Workshop's copyrights, that's good business. You can make a model that looks like Ghazghkull Thraka and call him Orky McOrk.

Again - its neither my business nor anyone else here how GW pursues its patents / copyrights, nor does it matter where the person across the table from me got their models. I'm not trying to have a competition of who has designer made army men, I'm trying to play a game and have fun.

Generics are drugs or other inventions which have run out of their patent lifetime. Once a patent has expired, it is completely legal to copy the invention in the patent. Hence you can buy Aspirin made by Bayer (who invented it in about 1896) or generic Aspirin which is much cheaper.

Patents are a different form of intellectual property to copyrighted works.

You can't make a model that looks like Ghazghkrull Thraka and sell him in legal competition with GW unless you make enough changes to the design of your model that it no longer counts as a derivative work.

JD21290 wrote:ok, once again since you ignored it:


what would happen if i photocopied the mona lisa painting and tried to sell it as the origional product?

what would happen if i painted my own pic of the mona lisa then sold it as my own work?

Or the example i gave earlier people in this hobby can relate do.

What if i bought golden demon winning miniature and use paint duplicating machine
to make 1000s of copies to resell for $100

instead of the original for $500?
Am i justified? because im bringing Nicely painted stuff for everyone
when normally have 0 way ot accessing it?

If I build my squat imperial guard army. I will be casting a lot guys. do i feel bad about it? nope. would I buy recasts from somebody else? nope.

its pretty simple:


cant afford it? dont play it.

cant find enough of the models you need? scratch build or keep looking.

skkipper wrote:If I build my squat imperial guard army. I will be casting a lot guys. do i feel bad about it? nope. would I buy recasts from somebody else? nope.

And when you play in public, would you be ok with letting everyone know they are recasts?

If I build my squat imperial guard army. I will be casting a lot guys. do i feel bad about it? nope. would I buy recasts from somebody else? nope.

so you will be casting products, hence your defence towards the re-casting.

so you buy a few models and re-cast them to save money? that would be breaking the law to start with.
your making an exact model based on someone elses work rather than your own.

if your building a squat army, keep looking on ebay like everyone else does.


however, use WHFB dwarf and convert them, that is fine (and should be bloody cheap)

LunaHound wrote:

skkipper wrote:If I build my squat imperial guard army. I will be casting a lot guys. do i feel bad about it? nope. would I buy recasts from somebody else? nope.

And when you play in public, would you be ok with letting everyone know they are recasts?

not everyone. it's kind of like letting everyone know you have a concealed weapons permit and that you are carring. it could only lead to grief.

and it would only lead to grief, why?

JD21290 wrote:stone, are you allways this much of an idiot?

If it serves a funny purpose, yes. I got 2 responses for that one.


edit: I'm loving the leading questions and statements. This is hilarious.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and doing my best to discourage elitism.

I do NOT approve or endorse infringing on GW's products. If you make a counterfeit model and stamp GW on it and try passing it off on e-bay like something you're not going to use anymore, you need to die horribly in a fire.

However, if someone has counterfeit models, or are proxying models, and they show up for a game....and you subsequently snub them for not having pockets as deep as yours, you also need to die horribly in a fire. You might justify it in other means; that they're not supporting the hobby, or that they're not playing in the spirit of the game, or that they don't have as much personal vestment in the hobby, but it results in the same: an elitist attitude that you're more worthy than others.

I don't care about counterfeiting models, or what other people do for their enjoyment. I'm not that elitist. If you want to bring counterfeited pseudo space marines to the table that were made by James Kirkshop and cost half as much as the models made by Games Workshop, good for you. I'm going to have fun either way.