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Indeed.

Now, if someone is foolish enough to seek out Counterfeit stuff just to reduce the price, that is their business, and they can deal with the crap they get without whinging,

But, when someone is selling them as the real deal...that is NOT on.

LunaHound wrote:

Its class and integrity. If anyone think wearing fake Rolex makes them high roller, they are
only lying to themselves.

That's my point. Its not my business whether you wear a fake Rolex or not. I'm not going to condemn you for wearing one if you do either. if I choose to wear a real one, that's my business - but it is egregious elitism to frown on someone else for what they choose to do with their money.

Your only input to a gamer is whether you enjoy playing with them or not. That's what I'm saying.

Dashofpepper wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Its class and integrity. If anyone think wearing fake Rolex makes them high roller, they are
only lying to themselves.

That's my point. Its not my business whether you wear a fake Rolex or not. I'm not going to condemn you for wearing one if you do either. if I choose to wear a real one, that's my business - but it is egregious elitism to frown on someone else for what they choose to do with their money.

Your only input to a gamer is whether you enjoy playing with them or not. That's what I'm saying.

Yes but in this case it actually hurts the company ( even if its alittle atm )
Counterfeiting rings catches on pretty fast.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But, when someone is selling them as the real deal...that is NOT on.

Well yes, fair enough. That's not just copyright infringement but deception as well. But if someone was selling the and openly acknowledging them as copies, then they're not really deceiving anyone.

BYE

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Indeed.

Now, if someone is foolish enough to seek out Counterfeit stuff just to reduce the price, that is their business, and they can deal with the crap they get without whinging,

But, when someone is selling them as the real deal...that is NOT on.

That's better.

Early in the thread there was talk about outrage that someone would dare use counterfeit models, and how to spot them...and it really made me feel...uneasy I guess is the word. I've bought a LOT of stuff from GW. I've also supplemented my army via E-bay (I got 60 1st or 2nd edition Gretchin a couple weeks ago). I don't think that they're counterfeit, but I wouldn't care if they were. GW charges $1.50 per gretchin. A 3 point model costs $1.50 for half an ounce of formed plastic. 60 gretchin gives me two full troop choices of them, and buying them straight from GW...way too much money. So I got them online, and they cost me about $0.40 apiece. They aren't primed, and I also got two trukks along with them (in the box and on the sprue) so I suspect that they were legitimate.

But if models were readily available to me that were counterfeit and were substantially cheaper than GW stuff, AND looked about the same....I'd probably buy them. Not because I'm unethical, but because I *KNOW* how much models cost, and how much markup there is by the time it gets to me. There's profit, and then there's greed, and GW prices are far beyond profit and into the range of unadulterated abusive greed.

I 'know someone' who may have recieved a counterfiet hellblade from b-town last year. 'He' didn't give it a second thought until 'he' bought a second one from forgeworld direct and the resin was a differant color. The first one also came in a bag without the forgeworld symbols and had photocopied assembly instructions. Being new to forgeworld models 'he' didn't give any of this a second thought until 'he' recieved the second model. Funny thing was the forgeworld one was warped while the possibly counterfiet one was straight as an arrow, great detail, minor mold lines. Who knows???

thalor

Go have a look at GW's Investor Relations.

See their annual turnover, and then the profit margin.

Then, suitably informed, come back here and make the same statement hand on heart....

I agree.

counterfit models are bad and Games Workshop should be the only proper place to get minitures from

I get rid of bulk duplicates every few months (I tend to scour the 2nd hand stuff at tourneys for bargains, and end up with gems, and a lot of scurf).

In the last year, I've given away 7 (identica)l Steel legion figures, 8 attillan rough rider torsos (identical) and a handful of catachan metals (also identical). All were unpainted and "unwanted" (by me) leftovers from the bits collections. The bags were relatively cheap (came in a bag of bits for $30 including a 2nd ed metal sentinel, Vindicare assassin, steel legion, rough riders, catachans and 2nd ed metal IG heavy weapon (autocannon) carriages+crew.)

All were of the higher tin content 2nd ed period (shiny). All had one set of mold lines and all of the flash (gates/vents, etc) and the original tab intact. Am I to assume that because of the high quantity of duplicates, and the cheapness, that they were necessarily fakes?
All were part of lines that had a limited poses (for regular infantry). Players with these older models in their armies tended to have large numbers of identical figures as a result (they were a random pack - either blister pack or blister box). 2nd ed armies (even marine ones) tended to look like clone armies.

If they were recasts (which is possible) then they were very good ones (but having worked in non-ferric casting, it isn't that difficult for a skilled person to do this.).

I gave them away as they had no value to me (I didn't want them or need them), not because they were possible recasts that I wanted to fob off on others. If they had been something I could use, but others were willing to buy, I probably would've sold them - and probably run the risk of being called a purveyor of fakeries.

Just saying is all. Just because there's a lot of duplicates and they're cheap doesn't necessarily follow that they are fakes. If it's a "newer" model (only in plastic) in metal or resin (in that case, and not a FW piece) they are probably fakes. Otherwise, it ain't necessarily so.

Mad Dok:

I haven't analyzed GW's figures and profit margins or business practices. All I know is this:

A box of 5 Stormboyz costs $25.

A bag of 25 3" army-men costs $0.99.

I'm willing to put forth money on a wager that the army men that the dollar store over here sells has the same amount of plastic that the Stormboyz do. Not only that, but I don't have to assemble or paint the army men. That's a bonus to me. =p

How about this: A battlewagon costs $50. I can go to Walmart, and for $39.99, I can get the freakin' Batmobile from the newest movie. Its as large as a Battlewagon, is already painted, is a remote-controlled car, and fires little nerf missiles at the press of a button.

So tell me again how GW products aren't wildly over-priced. When I was in my FLGS talking about gretchin and wanting to know if they were any good, I mentioned going over and buying a bag of army men to proxy in and try it out - they poo-pooed my idea; no one outright said it, but it was a "Don't be cheap, buy the real thing." Well, at $15 for a pack of 10, when I want to know if two squads of 30 gretchin belong on the field, sinking $90 into an experiment is asking a little much when the store two doors down can give me just as much for $2. Does having "more detail" on the models justify it costing FOUR THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT more? Yeah...4,500% more. 45x more.

I doubt it.

And Battlefoam is coming out with new cases to go along with the foam. Here's a great example. How is it that a competitor is able to make vastly superior products for less money? Either GW is ridiculously overcharging, or they are terribly mismanaged as a company such that their overhead is extreme.

My point is: This is all the reason WHY there is a counterfeit market. There is a vast margin being made here, regardless of what you see on their investor relations page. So if someone else wants to participate in the hobby, and they're not willing to spend $25 to get 5 models that make up 1/4 of a single troop choice, that's their call.

Personally, you can show up at a gaming table with me and use counterfeit models, army men, or little squares of paper. As long as you have a good attitude and we have fun you're alright in my book.



*EDIT* I'm not condoning selling counterfeits or using them - I'm just saying that I'm not going to crucify someone for doing it.

I do not support counterfeiting. I agree with Grotsnick in that a person should be rewarded for their work. However, Matt Varnish worries me. If my kid had some models that were "fakes", and some guy at a GW store destroyed them; I would completely lose the plot. You go trashing someone elses belongings, fakes or not, you are in for a rude awakening.

I was reading the GW page concerning counterfeits and I came across this gem:

In most, if not all, cases the villains do not know that we are watching them.

I just love this sentence out of context.

I can never resist a challenge. From the GW Investor Relations Page....

In the 6 months to 30th November 2008...

Revenue was £61.2million
Operating profit was £3.3million.

So, unless my mental arithmetic is way off, thats what, a 5% profit margin?

Why so low? Well, the companies making your precious Green Soldiers your banging on about is likely based in China. GW are based in the UK, where we have a minimum wage of around £5.85. Now, allowing a 40 hour week (average working hours) and over a year, thats £12,168 per full time employee over the age of 23 (minimum wage is lower for younger people).

Also, said Green Soldier company does not have it's own retail chain. Indeed, very very few manufacturers do. So, Manager, Full Timer and a Part Timer..£30,000 per store per annum, just in wages. And with.....340 Hobby Stores in the company....that's an annual wage bill, not including additional Store Level Management and resultant costs of a fairly whopping £10,200,000 just on wages. Then of course, you have the bills to pay, like Business Rates to the local councils, Store Leases, Insurance, Distribution, support infrastructure, and you can probably double that right there and then.

Sorry to piss on your chips, but the facts...they don't lie.

And if you need additional convincing.....how old are the molds being used for the Green Army Men? I'm willing to bet I can pick up a pack tomorrow, and recognise the same sculpts I had when I was a kid, almost 25 years ago. GW constantly produce new kits, year on year. Plus the literature etc. They own their own foundry, and every machine in it, to the best of my knowledge, all those Machines are bought and paid for, rather than leased.

Add in that the plastic used for the Green Army Men is that bizarre bendy one, and it's a cheaper product to begin with.

I would support counterfeiting if i could just find it.

I've looked all over ebay and just can't find anything that i could definitely say was fake.

Daggermaw wrote:I would support counterfeiting if i could just find it.

I've looked all over ebay and just can't find anything that i could definitely say was fake.

Go troll somewhere else 1/10

*PS i still remember you from another thread.

1/10?

1 for the troll's effort. Have to admire his effort following from past thread to this one.

Actually good quality recasts are almost impossible to tell from the real thing...especially after they have been cleaned, painted, and based. Note I said "good qaulity". Some of the more notorious defunct Ebay recasters lacked in model quality. "Mac-Ace" was the worst of these. His work apparently came from from individual "drop casts" rather than a spin caster. His work would be hard to pass off as original to anyone paying attention. The notorious "Goblins-Goodies" on the other hand, judging on his lot sizes, probably worked with a professional grade centrafuge casting machine and 12 inch round molds, just like many miniature companies use. His work was actually quite good and once painted would be an example of almost undetectable recasts.

Honestly, even bad recasts will often pass the test. How many of you know how to spot a recast? Now how many of those actually examine every model in an oppent's army, test it's weight, etc, to catch such counterfiets? Very few.

Moreover, there is a bit of mis-information on this and other threads about how to actually catch a recaster. For example...

Plastic Models cast in Metal.

Honestly you would have to be insane to do that as it's way too obvious. I do know one guy who does this on occasion, but he keeps those models for personal use and does not take them play with in public. I've never seen an example of a comercial recaster selling plastic models cast in metal.

Older models cast in White Metal (for example, Squats and Rogue Trader era were cast in Lead, the White Metal switchover came during 2nd Edition)

Actually you are incorrect there.
Why that statement is largely true, you have to keep in mind the archive service. Prior to about 2000 or so, pretty much any model in the Citadel range was available for direct sale from GW. You just called them up with the original catalog number and you get pretty much whatever you wanted cast up. (I certainly wish they still did that) Thus you will occasionally find old models from the "lead era" that are 100% legit product that are cast in lead-free alloy. Do a search of the "Citadel Minatures Collector's Yahoo group" for examples of discussions on this issue.
The opposite is not true of course. If you find a recent model cast up in a lead alloy, that's certain to be a recast.

Secondary Mold Lines

Once again, while largely true, that's not a 100% sure thing. You see due to the high tempatures involved, rubber molds wear out over time and have to be refurbished or replaced. At times, the model used to create the new mold that replaces the worn out one is not an original master, but a casting. The result is occasionally you will see a legit figure that has two sets of mold lines. I have myself pulled a figure (an old Jes Goodwin Eldar model before the 3rd ed. range was released) out of a store bought GW blister that had two sets of mold lines.

If someone wants more of a particularly rare model, for example, Trenchraider and his Space Slaan, there is the morally netural approach of making your mold, and melting down existing GW models. GW get their cut, you get the models you are after.

Actually that's not what occured.
My recaster friend uses 25$ bags of shotgun pellets as his main casting material. We only occasionally throw old unwanted figures in the crucible...and most often these are miscasts that he cast in the first place.

Finally...

However, Matt Varnish worries me. If my kid had some models that were "fakes", and some guy at a GW store destroyed them; I would completely lose the plot. You go trashing someone elses belongings, fakes or not, you are in for a rude awakening.

Quoted for truth.
Trashing someone elses property is never a good idea on a couple of different levels. But you hear that kind of crap all the time. "I would take his models outside and hit them with a hammer" sort of trash talk always pops up in the "Nazi themed army" threads for example. It's just another aspect of the "internet tought guy complex" and is not to be taken seriously.

TR

Mad Dok...

As I said, I don't follow GW PR or investor news.

But like I said: When a box of 5 plastic army men cost $25, and you need 4 of those boxes to get a full complement of troops...and that complement makes up 1 part of an army which is full of similarly priced plastic army men, well...that's too much money.

A lot of folks start hobby stores and become retailers simply to save themselves 40% off the cost of buying GW stuff.

I've spent a good share of money on GW stuff, but I've got enough at this point that I'm trying to compete in tournaments and win store credit to expand my army. I won an RTT yesterday and got $70 worth of store credit that got me two boxes of stormboyz and a box of ork boyz. Not bad for a $5 entry fee and 8 hours worth of playing a game.

But again...we're talking about counterfeiters. $100 for a single troops choice (when you're going to end up with 4-5 of them) is excessive for a lot of people. If they can't afford it, I'm not going to frown at them for being fiscally prudent, I'm going to be thankful that my life and productivity allow me to get the actual GW stuff.

Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

Dr. grot: really, it's not that they should at all. After all, it IS wrong. However, it's also about defending what's yours. GW wants to claim their IP rights? Fine, I don't really have a problem with it at all in theory. I htink their execution may be a bit heavy handed, but no two people are going to agree on everything. But, are they willing to defend those rights against all comers? No. Not worth it. So the people recasting either try to slide by under the radar, or keep their numbers down far enough to make prosecution a non-profitable option for GW. Because sometimes it's just not a battle worth fighting.

Right? Wrong? On both sides it a lot less about this. It comes down to the money, and how to get it.

If I were making an army with heavily converted models that are usually in abundance, I would definetly consider recasting the models in order to save time and sanity. However, in a situation like that, it would be nice to at least buy GW plastic for the moldings.

...just saying...

Centurian99 wrote:Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

"Theft" is a very harsh word.
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I regard non-comercial recasts (that is to say recasts done for personal use only, or those given away to others...in other words not sold for financial gain in any way) as a very minor offence that is akin to illegally dubbing a copy of a VHS tape in it's severity.
I'm sure I'm not alone.

In any event in the real world it's an offense that is almost impossible catch. The laws and rules against it are almost unenforceable. I could play an army that consisted 100% of counterfeit miniatures in a GW store and no one would be the wiser. That's not a judgement of the right or wrong of the act. It's just a statement of fact.

TR

Centurian99 wrote:Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

Law =/= Good

I can't really say it any more plain than that. Morality at its core is ultimately very much in the realm of opinion and personal ethics.

Though for what it's worth I do believe selling duplicates as the genuine article is wrong. I have a problem with duplicity. Duplicating an overpriced, scarce, and/or unavailable product; that I have no moral qualms about and I consider more than fair.

Trench-Raider wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

"Theft" is a very harsh word.
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I regard non-comercial recasts (that is to say recasts done for personal use only, or those given away to others...in other words not sold for financial gain in any way) as a very minor offence that is akin to illegally dubbing a copy of a VHS tape in it's severity.
I'm sure I'm not alone.

Yep, its a harsh word. Yep, I chose it deliberately. And I also consider unauthorized dubbing of videos, unauthorized downloading of MP3s etc., to be theft. As someone who's done and continues to do creative-type work, when you do work that's creative in nature, you expect to getting paid for it. And if you want to keep get paid for doing creative work, you have to vigorously defend your IP and ownership rights.

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

One may carry more legal penalties, but neither is what I would consider acceptable behavior.

Let's not beat around the bush here...if you recast models, you're stealing from GW. May not seem like much, but the principle remains the same. I guess you can try to argue that certain kinds of theft are okay, when other kinds aren't, but to be honest, unless you're stealing to keep your family fed because you have absolutely no other options, I can't think of a whole lot of ethically defensible theft.

And let's continue not beat around the bush here...if you're stealing from GW, then you're stealing from all the individuals whose labor went into producing the game, sculpting the models, promoting the models, manufacturing the models, etc.

I'm a huge IP law hippie. I support shorter copyright terms, greatly expanded fair use protections, a reworking of the patent system, and weaker trademark laws. But I nevertheless hate the typical internet justifications for piracy that are popping up in this thread. Unless you beleive copyright terms should be shorter than they have ever been in the last two centuries, it's impossible to defend selling (or giving away) recasts of GW miniatures.

Perhaps I'm being overly simplistic (and if so, call me on it!) but I think that everyone who has thought about IP policy supports the existence of copyright protections lasting for at least a quarter century, meaning that virtually everything Games Workshop has ever made is entitled to protection. They've spent a lot of time and money devising models, paints, fluff, rules, etc, and it's unlikely that they would have been able to create such a rich game system if they had no legal protections.

Overly harsh or restrictive laws can be bad for society, but that doesn't mean the solution is to abolish law.

And, coming at the other side:

Centurian99 wrote:Yep, its a harsh word. Yep, I chose it deliberately. And I also consider unauthorized dubbing of videos, unauthorized downloading of MP3s etc., to be theft.

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

I strongly disagree with the use of the word "theft." We're talking about non-rivalrous goods here; you're not taking my paperback, but photocopying it and leaving me with the original. This is the heart of the difference between intellectual property and real property, and the language we use should reflect that distinction. I'll readily concede that commercial recasting is both illegal and immoral, but "theft" brings in a lot of real property analogies that I don't believe should be brought into the discussion. (Actually, I think the very term "intellectual property" creates a lot of bad analogies, but the term is common enough that it's a lot easier to accept it and move on.)

Centurian99 wrote:Let's not beat around the bush here...if you recast models, you're stealing from GW. May not seem like much, but the principle remains the same. I guess you can try to argue that certain kinds of theft are okay, when other kinds aren't, but to be honest, unless you're stealing to keep your family fed because you have absolutely no other options, I can't think of a whole lot of ethically defensible theft.

Well, to follow your metaphor, if you use cardboard counters to represent units (which is totally doable in Fantasy, and is not impossible in a 40k setting) you're also "stealing" revenue from GW. This illustrates the problem with that metaphor. It's not about giving GW a certain amount of money, it's about respecting their IP. I would love to play against a 40k army made entirely out of green stuff, but I would not be happy playing against a 40k army made out of suspiciously light Tyranids.

Centurian99 wrote:And let's continue not beat around the bush here...if you're stealing from GW, then you're stealing from all the individuals whose labor went into producing the game, sculpting the models, promoting the models, manufacturing the models, etc.

"Stealing" metaphor aside, I completely agree with you here. The "GW hobby" is a sort of community you form with Games Workshop and your fellow players. GW is actually a very liberal company with regards to their intelectual property; they not only allow you to mess with their IP but they actually encourage it, showcasing conversions, homemade rules and fluff, etc. I'm not going to go around condemning miniatures people cast to play with in their basements, but if they want to take that stuff out and bring it to a pick-up game at my store, I'm going to be upset.

If you want to get all Kantian, you can only support a practice if it could safely be engaged in by everyone. If everyone cast their own miniatures, GW would collpase, and I would never have a new IG Codex. That's why we need to respect IP law. :-)

Centurian99 wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Gotta love all the people here that think theft is a good idea or even defensible.

"Theft" is a very harsh word.
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I regard non-comercial recasts (that is to say recasts done for personal use only, or those given away to others...in other words not sold for financial gain in any way) as a very minor offence that is akin to illegally dubbing a copy of a VHS tape in it's severity.
I'm sure I'm not alone.

Yep, its a harsh word. Yep, I chose it deliberately. And I also consider unauthorized dubbing of videos, unauthorized downloading of MP3s etc., to be theft. As someone who's done and continues to do creative-type work, when you do work that's creative in nature, you expect to getting paid for it. And if you want to keep get paid for doing creative work, you have to vigorously defend your IP and ownership rights.

I'm talking about a qualitative difference, not a quantitative one. Theft is theft. If I came over to your house and took a paperback book from you without your permission, that's theft. If I take your computer or your entire 40K collection, that's also theft.

One may carry more legal penalties, but neither is what I would consider acceptable behavior.

Let's not beat around the bush here...if you recast models, you're stealing from GW. May not seem like much, but the principle remains the same. I guess you can try to argue that certain kinds of theft are okay, when other kinds aren't, but to be honest, unless you're stealing to keep your family fed because you have absolutely no other options, I can't think of a whole lot of ethically defensible theft.

And let's continue not beat around the bush here...if you're stealing from GW, then you're stealing from all the individuals whose labor went into producing the game, sculpting the models, promoting the models, manufacturing the models, etc.

And who made you the judge of that? Get off your high horse and get a reality check.

In almost every civilized country there is a separation in the law between copyright crimes and theft/stealing. So no, unless you are sitting in the suprme court making a new ruling copyright crimes isnt theft, theft actually requires you to take something from someone.
The only thing thats similar is that both actions are illegal, but copyright crimes unless done on an industrial scale carries very low(if any punishment). Seeing someone spew out so blantant falsness really ticks me off.

GW is a toy company. There is no moral obligation on them to make their products available for ‘affordable’ prices.

It is self-serving to use the perceived high price of GW figures as an excuse to justify buying counterfeits. There are many cheaper alternatives from reputable companies. If you buy counterfeits, you are not only depriving GW of revenue, you also deprive the competing companies of revenue.

People should reserve their moral outrage for the high price of anti-retroviral drugs.

It's not just big companies like GW, but smaller ones too. GW might be able to absorb the costs of counterfeiters and be able to chase them up legally, but what of smaller munufacturers?

I was quite concerned to see that Hasslefree have had people ripping them off on eBay and actually selling their models for more than RRP! It takes trade away from them and it introduces poor quality versions of their models into the marketplace, a small company can do without the negative feedback on their products that could create.

Hasslefree link - http://forum-of-doom.com/index.php?topic=9276.0

I think I have a few recasts in my collection. Not because I was looking to buy recasts but because stuff was bought cheap and in bulk at wargames shows and bring and buy sections. It's a bit of lucky dip anyway. Also some of the much older GW figures can look a bit pulpy and are soft with lead. I think I have gathered a couple though because on further inspection the detail is poor and there's suggestion of two mould lines. But I can't be sure and I bought them in good faith - they are relatively rare and OOP meaning they aren't available at all from GW, so I will paint them up for my collection and would use them in a game if the need arose. I'm certainly not going to obliterate them, I have no intention of passing them on but now I have them they might as well be put to use instead of being discarded. Seems a fair approach to me.