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Slackermagee wrote:For whoever is saying Tau don't need a new codex: we are generic. Bland. Options and interesting accessories have been removed or toned down. The importance of PG/MP jump, shoot, jump vaporized when cover saves became so freaking universal.

It's not as needed as Necrons, DE, or Inquisition... but there are a whole lot more players for Tau than probably those three combined (dwarfed again themselves by SM of course).

GW seems to be releasing things in order of what sells well. Why would they release DE when there is NO guarantee that people would pony up the money for them? Ditto for Necrons... to a point.

Go go Tau: marketable, mostly plastic already, and needing a freshening up.

Well,I think just about anybody with an army that isn't 'nids,SW,IG,SM,or Orks will say that they need a new 'dex in the near future,but it just isn't realistic.

BA are definately next,and after them DH/WH,DE,and 'crons are the the only armies still running off a 3rd edition codex. Those armies are all woefully outdated,and should be the first in line for new 'dexes. If GW gets those 3 done,then they'll at least have all the armies operating on codexes written within the last two rules editions,instead of having them spanning from 3rd-5th like they do now.

Inquistion,DE,and Necrons are going to get redone at some point,because GW has been working on new figs for all of those lines. I think you can argue that maybe GW should've just cut those armies support entirely and focused on more popular armies,but that's not what GW decided to do. Those armies will come eventually. They're not getting dropped,at least not before they get redo's. One of the huge problems in doing DH or WH is the fact that even your base troops are all metal,so they at least deserve a shot with plastic mini's to see if they're viable or not. Necrons are still a stock army,so they at least sell well enough for a redo. DE...well,IMO DE should've probably just been dropped completely. They failed despite having plastic base units AND being including in the 3rd edition starter box. However,GW seems dedicated to giving DE another go,and if they're going to keep them,they need redone badly.

Those three armies NEED redone,either from a mini's standpoint,a rules standpoint,or probably both. When you start to get into the 4th ed codexes,DA need a new 'dex desperately,far worse than any of the other 4th ed 'dexes. Then,you get to the armies that are still playable,but could use a buff like Tau and BT. However,in my mind,there's at least 4 other books that need done(Inquisition,Necrons,Dark Eldar,Dark Angels) before GW gets to that point. If it's true that the Inquisition is the next in line,then that gets one(actually 2) of the armies that need a redo the most out of the way.

As an impartial observer(I play SM and Nids), I would definitely rate the need scale as this, from an army perspective:

Inquisition books - breaks competitive balance when teamed up with the newer codices...specifically guard
Necrons - pretty bad across the board
Dark Angels - poor guys
Dark Eldar - 1 good build, and a whole bunch of garbage
Black Templar - Not as bad as people think...although a very bland army atm
Tau - Quite good still, despite popular opinion...but could be such a better entry with an update
Eldar- still very good, stop whining pointy-ears(not directed at anyone on the forum...moreso my gf )

As far as model lineups, I see it this way:

(crappiest)Dark Eldar
(crappier)Inquisition
(crappy)Necrons
(alright)Tau
(good)Eldar
(Space Marines)Dark Angels
(Space Marines)Black Templar

And as far as which would sell the best with new models:

Inquisition(Tons of support for, but very let down by current model range, and current ruleset.)
Dark Angels(Models aren't the problem with DA, but a new book would sprout a good amount of sales...as they're Space Marines, eg SW)
Tau(More popular than many think)
Black Templar(See Dark Angels, except their book isn't as bad)
Necrons(No selection, and way too much metal to be successful right now)
Eldar(range is pretty great already, but Eldar players are pretty fanatical, and will buy a decent amount anyway)
Dark Eldar(The red-headed step-child of the lineup)


Guess which list GW cares about most?

Ostrakon wrote:
I don't really think a joint tri-Ordo codex makes much sense though. How many times in the fluff have Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and the Sisters taken the field together? And Inquisitors are well-known to be rarely friendly toward each other.

The internet's double lash prince leading khorne berserkers nurgle plague marines would like a word with you.


I love the idea of a new Inquisition codex. I will be starting a new army if and when it does come out. There is something just so awesome about grey knights that is translated so poorly currently.

The thing I don't get is why GW needs to turn things into a massive release for every new codex. For big, popular armies, sure, more models are great. But for fringe armies like crons, DE, DH and WH, a simple rules update codex would suffice, with maybe a few new models for each one (one or two new metal SCs, one new plastic unit). We all know the books don't take much to produce, and releasing 3-4 new models per release instead of like 8 new different kinds of sprues would greatly decrease their investment risk.

Of course there'd be a lot of bitching about "BUT MEQS GOT MORE MODELS WAH" but in reality, most of the underplayed armies would be pretty happy. And hey, if they release a powerful codex (as GW is fond of doing), the army might get more popular, allowing them to comfortably develop new ones in the future.

In any case, I think Necrons or Tau will be the next Xeno codex. The way they were briefly mentioned in the 'nid codex seemed kind of random to just throw out for no reason. And since it portrayed Tau as being total morons I'm going to bet on 'crons.

(Yes, this is obviously wishful thinking)

Theres also the Tie in for the Tau in the nids dex. Rather than the joke lines about the necron invasion and the avoidance of tomb worlds not much is mentioned

For the Tau an entire hive fleet goes after them along with the mention of a huge war against the Imperium right after that.

Does this mean anything? Not really no, but it could be GW's idea of being subtle on the otherhand.

Ostrakon wrote:The thing I don't get is why GW needs to turn things into a massive release for every new codex. For big, popular armies, sure, more models are great. But for fringe armies like crons, DE, DH and WH, a simple rules update codex would suffice, with maybe a few new models for each one (one or two new metal SCs, one new plastic unit). We all know the books don't take much to produce, and releasing 3-4 new models per release instead of like 8 new different kinds of sprues would greatly decrease their investment risk.

Of course there'd be a lot of bitching about "BUT MEQS GOT MORE MODELS WAH" but in reality, most of the underplayed armies would be pretty happy. And hey, if they release a powerful codex (as GW is fond of doing), the army might get more popular, allowing them to comfortably develop new ones in the future.

In any case, I think Necrons or Tau will be the next Xeno codex. The way they were briefly mentioned in the 'nid codex seemed kind of random to just throw out for no reason. And since it portrayed Tau as being total morons I'm going to bet on 'crons.

(Yes, this is obviously wishful thinking)

The spartan releases for "fringe armies" is a double-edged sword,though. Yes,it lowers GW's investment risk,but it also decreases sales for those army releases. In fact,probably one of the big reasons Tau outsold Necrons is the fact that the Necron codex is extremely spartan with very little variety. I mean,3 HQ's(two of which are special characters),3 Elite,1 Troop,2 Fast Attack,and 3 Heavy Support is an army list severely lacking in options and variety. If GW redid Necrons with 3-4 new kits,logically,those kits would be plastic Pariahs,Immortals,Flayed Ones,and Tomb Spiders,with maybe an added plastic sprue to the Destroyer kits to give the option to build a Heavy Destroyer. That's not going to spark a lot of sales for that army. Similarly,so much of the DH and WH lines need to be redone in plastic,it's not even funny. GK Troop Squads,GK Termies,Inquisitorial Stormtroopers,Battle Sister Squads,Seraphim,Arco-Flagellents,Excorcist Launchers,maybe even Penitant Engines and Sisters Repentia could do with plastics. Once they get done redoing everything that needs to be redone,there's going to be no room for new additions.

As a DH and WH player,I can say I'd be relatively happy with a new 'dex. At the same time,I know I wouldn't buy a whole lot for either army unless there's some sweet new mini's and/or some new weapon options for existing units that I need the new kits to make. GW stays in buisness by getting me to spend money on their products,not by simply making me happy.

Ostrakon wrote:The thing I don't get is why GW needs to turn things into a massive release for every new codex. For big, popular armies, sure, more models are great. But for fringe armies like crons, DE, DH and WH, a simple rules update codex would suffice, with maybe a few new models for each one (one or two new metal SCs, one new plastic unit).

On the alternative take, Orks were a fringe army who were given a massive release for their new Codex.

For Tau, they are the only army with a third/fourth (not counting `4.5' books) that I have not heard even the faintest peep about. I would almost guarantee they have not begun work on Tau, which would put them off to 2012.

Should also add that the Dark Eldar (as of late December) were almost, if not completely done, so expect them later this year, either pre or post Tau.

My hope was DE after BA, but the studio sources kept saying Tau post BA at the end of last year.

Whatever1 wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:The thing I don't get is why GW needs to turn things into a massive release for every new codex. For big, popular armies, sure, more models are great. But for fringe armies like crons, DE, DH and WH, a simple rules update codex would suffice, with maybe a few new models for each one (one or two new metal SCs, one new plastic unit). We all know the books don't take much to produce, and releasing 3-4 new models per release instead of like 8 new different kinds of sprues would greatly decrease their investment risk.

Of course there'd be a lot of bitching about "BUT MEQS GOT MORE MODELS WAH" but in reality, most of the underplayed armies would be pretty happy. And hey, if they release a powerful codex (as GW is fond of doing), the army might get more popular, allowing them to comfortably develop new ones in the future.

In any case, I think Necrons or Tau will be the next Xeno codex. The way they were briefly mentioned in the 'nid codex seemed kind of random to just throw out for no reason. And since it portrayed Tau as being total morons I'm going to bet on 'crons.

(Yes, this is obviously wishful thinking)

The spartan releases for "fringe armies" is a double-edged sword,though. Yes,it lowers GW's investment risk,but it also decreases sales for those army releases. In fact,probably one of the big reasons Tau outsold Necrons is the fact that the Necron codex is extremely spartan with very little variety. I mean,3 HQ's(two of which are special characters),3 Elite,1 Troop,2 Fast Attack,and 3 Heavy Support is an army list severely lacking in options and variety. If GW redid Necrons with 3-4 new kits,logically,those kits would be plastic Pariahs,Immortals,Flayed Ones,and Tomb Spiders,with maybe an added plastic sprue to the Destroyer kits to give the option to build a Heavy Destroyer. That's not going to spark a lot of sales for that army. Similarly,so much of the DH and WH lines need to be redone in plastic,it's not even funny. GK Troop Squads,GK Termies,Inquisitorial Stormtroopers,Battle Sister Squads,Seraphim,Arco-Flagellents,Excorcist Launchers,maybe even Penitant Engines and Sisters Repentia could do with plastics. Once they get done redoing everything that needs to be redone,there's going to be no room for new additions.

As a DH and WH player,I can say I'd be relatively happy with a new 'dex. At the same time,I know I wouldn't buy a whole lot for either army unless there's some sweet new mini's and/or some new weapon options for existing units that I need the new kits to make. GW stays in buisness by getting me to spend money on their products,not by simply making me happy.

Yeah, I guess the problem with all of these old armies is that they're just too metal.

Tomb Spyders and Wraiths could stay metal, however. They're usually not needed in particularly high numbers. Destroyers should have a cheaper box (like 3 for 40) because 20 each for not a lot of plastic is ridiculous when you're forced to run so many now.

I think a proper 'cron release would look something like:

-Plastic Immortals
-Plastic Flayed Ones
-Plastic Pariahs
-New Destroyer Box with plastic Heavy options

-New metal HQ unit - "Hierophant"
-New C'Tan - Void Dragon
-New plastic infantry unit
-New vehicle - "Sarcophagus" troop carrier

And that sounds like a little too much for a supposedly unpopular army. I mean, space wolves and nids both got a lot but nothing like that list. And there'd have to be a lot of codex powerup if people are even really going to consider Flayed Ones or Pariahs anyway.

Double post. oops

Perhaps with the next Necron codex release they would use more of a "combinded" model approch to create multiable troop types with a single box, like they have been doing with the space wolves and some of the tyranid items.

A good example that could greatly use this would be necrons. several units in the necron range could be combinded into the same boxes to greatly save up on selve space / blister space.

Necron Warriors/Necron Immortals - They are basicly the same model just armed with different weapons.
Necron Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers - Same as before, perhaps a slightly different choice with the arms.
Necron lord kit - Would include both of the metal Necron lord options (Res orb, Warscythe) but also a option for a destroyer body. Would greatly simpliy things with needing only 1 box. If the necron lord comes with awesomeness like the chaos terminator lord kit, then i might even pick one up for it's looks alone.

Grey knights would be Extremely good choice imho for the combinded kits.

Grey Knight Sqaud Box of 5, would have the options to create the following:

-Standard Grey Knights (Including options for a justica, Nemisis Force weapons (Both spears and swords), a pyscannon, and a Incinerator)
-Grey Knight Teleport Sqaud (teleport packs instead of standard backpacks perhaps? would also be useful for blood raven fans)
-Grey Knight Puragion Sqaud (Sadly you would need a second box for the added special weapons)

Sadly... i'm dreaming right here in front of my PC.

Best they do make those type of kits however, more space for other models in the shops, so more display

GW is getting rid of hybrid kits (plastic SM backpacks notwithstanding), so I wouldn't expect a new hybrid metal lord/plastic destroyer kit.

A Necron re-release is likely to involve a plastic Heavy Destroyer (much like Tau will get a plastic Broadside), some new tank, some new units in metal, and then either plastic Immortals, Flayed Ones or Pariahs - pick one.

And then loads of Special Characters.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And then loads of Special Characters.

Necron Lord Convention
Convention Leader: "Lord 011101010100, meet Lord 01110101010111."
And I'd continue, but I don't feel like typing a big Lord convention conversation...

Necrons would also get a couple new units.

'Untouchables'

'Nigel No Friends'

Now what if GW totally Wild-cards everyone and releases Codex Chaos Space Marines after BA?

Whatever happen to all the rumours about the Chaos Legion/cult books? I havent heard a rumour about a World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperors Children or Thousand Son book for several months now. Was that a legit rumour or was all that of just wishful thinking born from the lack of legion builds in the current CSM codex? The idea of it seems sounds, being that there is a "core/vanilla SM book" and then a bunch of spin offs (BA,DA, SW, BT). Wouldnt the CSM book be considered the Chaos vanilla, and (WE, DG, EC, and TS) be the spin offs? Granted the time line for the releases on these would take a while unless GW decided to do a whole year of chaos releases.

LiberatedObject wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:And then loads of Special Characters.

Necron Lord Convention
Convention Leader: "Lord 011101010100, meet Lord 01110101010111."
And I'd continue, but I don't feel like typing a big Lord convention conversation...

They're not androids, dude. They're more akin to mummies or liches: remnant mortal souls trapped (possibly unwillingly) in immortal bodies.

And if Tyranids can have SCs there's no reason why 'crons can't have them. It matters more how other races would label a particularly badass Lord or pariah or whatever, than what the Necrons themselves would "call" him.

Ostrakon wrote:

LiberatedObject wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:And then loads of Special Characters.

Necron Lord Convention
Convention Leader: "Lord 011101010100, meet Lord 01110101010111."
And I'd continue, but I don't feel like typing a big Lord convention conversation...

They're not androids, dude. They're more akin to mummies or liches: remnant mortal souls trapped (possibly unwillingly) in immortal bodies.

And if Tyranids can have SCs there's no reason why 'crons can't have them. It matters more how other races would label a particularly badass Lord or pariah or whatever, than what the Necrons themselves would "call" him.

True, but it is kind of funny how they beep in DoW...

Chamleoneyes wrote:Whatever happen to all the rumours about the Chaos Legion/cult books?

The official response to that last year was `we may do that, but it is not currently on the cards'. Everything else they were asked about (eg Space Hulk, Space Wolves) they were typically evasive around, but just that one they made things clear on.

Superscope wrote:Necron Warriors/Necron Immortals - They are basicly the same model just armed with different weapons.

Necron Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers - Same as before, perhaps a slightly different choice with the arms.

Necron lord kit - Would include both of the metal Necron lord options (Res orb, Warscythe) but also a option for a destroyer body. Would greatly simpliy things with needing only 1 box.

I can see the Necron Lord kit, with extra options added above and beyond the current option list.

Necron Destroyer will likely be a whole bunch of weapon options, kind of like the redone Landspeeder / Sentinel. Probably, the rules will allow bigger units as well.

Necron Immortals should be plastic, and distinct with bigger, bulkier, badder bodies. Hopefully, GW does these as a 2-in-1 weapon options like Fire Warriors.

Ostrakon wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:The thing I don't get is why GW needs to turn things into a massive release for every new codex. For big, popular armies, sure, more models are great. But for fringe armies like crons, DE, DH and WH, a simple rules update codex would suffice, with maybe a few new models for each one (one or two new metal SCs, one new plastic unit). We all know the books don't take much to produce, and releasing 3-4 new models per release instead of like 8 new different kinds of sprues would greatly decrease their investment risk.

Of course there'd be a lot of bitching about "BUT MEQS GOT MORE MODELS WAH" but in reality, most of the underplayed armies would be pretty happy. And hey, if they release a powerful codex (as GW is fond of doing), the army might get more popular, allowing them to comfortably develop new ones in the future.

In any case, I think Necrons or Tau will be the next Xeno codex. The way they were briefly mentioned in the 'nid codex seemed kind of random to just throw out for no reason. And since it portrayed Tau as being total morons I'm going to bet on 'crons.

(Yes, this is obviously wishful thinking)

The spartan releases for "fringe armies" is a double-edged sword,though. Yes,it lowers GW's investment risk,but it also decreases sales for those army releases. In fact,probably one of the big reasons Tau outsold Necrons is the fact that the Necron codex is extremely spartan with very little variety. I mean,3 HQ's(two of which are special characters),3 Elite,1 Troop,2 Fast Attack,and 3 Heavy Support is an army list severely lacking in options and variety. If GW redid Necrons with 3-4 new kits,logically,those kits would be plastic Pariahs,Immortals,Flayed Ones,and Tomb Spiders,with maybe an added plastic sprue to the Destroyer kits to give the option to build a Heavy Destroyer. That's not going to spark a lot of sales for that army. Similarly,so much of the DH and WH lines need to be redone in plastic,it's not even funny. GK Troop Squads,GK Termies,Inquisitorial Stormtroopers,Battle Sister Squads,Seraphim,Arco-Flagellents,Excorcist Launchers,maybe even Penitant Engines and Sisters Repentia could do with plastics. Once they get done redoing everything that needs to be redone,there's going to be no room for new additions.

As a DH and WH player,I can say I'd be relatively happy with a new 'dex. At the same time,I know I wouldn't buy a whole lot for either army unless there's some sweet new mini's and/or some new weapon options for existing units that I need the new kits to make. GW stays in buisness by getting me to spend money on their products,not by simply making me happy.

Yeah, I guess the problem with all of these old armies is that they're just too metal.

Tomb Spyders and Wraiths could stay metal, however. They're usually not needed in particularly high numbers. Destroyers should have a cheaper box (like 3 for 40) because 20 each for not a lot of plastic is ridiculous when you're forced to run so many now.

I think a proper 'cron release would look something like:

-Plastic Immortals
-Plastic Flayed Ones
-Plastic Pariahs
-New Destroyer Box with plastic Heavy options

-New metal HQ unit - "Hierophant"
-New C'Tan - Void Dragon
-New plastic infantry unit
-New vehicle - "Sarcophagus" troop carrier

And that sounds like a little too much for a supposedly unpopular army. I mean, space wolves and nids both got a lot but nothing like that list. And there'd have to be a lot of codex powerup if people are even really going to consider Flayed Ones or Pariahs anyway.

Personally,the Flayed Ones would need to be buffed so much,it isn't even funny. I've never seen anybody use them. They would actually probably do better by making Flayed Ones a Troops choice to give the Necrons some (relatively) cheap tie-up CC units. They should actually probably put the Scarab Swarms as Troops,as well,then concentrate on giving them some cool HQ's,Elites,FA,and HS. I heard that they were suppossedley working on a giant,scorpion looking thing,perhaps similar to the DE Talos,but I don't know how reliable the source is.

Pariahs,I think Necron players would actually field. However,they have to be fielded in maxed-out squads of 10 because their initiative is so low so they can absorb casualties and then hit back with their ignore armor/invulnerable weapons. They don't have the Necron special rule,however,so they don't count towards Phase Out,and it's a huge chunk of points to put into that unit. I don't believe they can be transported by the Monolith,either,so they're pure foot sloggers. In fact,Phase Out probably needs to go entirely,give the Guass weapons rending instead of their current glances or wounds on a 6,and replace We'll be back with FNP.

CrazyThang wrote:True, but it is kind of funny how they beep in DoW...

Which is rather stupid, since they are quite capable of talking as seen when you attack a stronghold
I guess Lords can't be arsed to talk in general because it takes computing power away from their eternal game of minesweeper.

The order, as I guess would be :
2010

Blood Angels
Tau
Dark Eldar

2011 (As hinted by Developer talks last year at conventions)

Eldar
Necrons
Black Templars

2012
Eldar
Inquisition
Demiurg (Dev's said no new races until everything has been updated and that GreyKnights/Sisters would be the last books before 6th edition)

Defiler wrote:The order, as I guess would be :
2010

Blood Angels
Tau
Dark Eldar

2011 (As hinted by Developer talks last year at conventions)

Eldar
Necrons
Black Templars

2012
Eldar
Inquisition
Demiurg (Dev's said no new races until everything has been updated and that GreyKnights/Sisters would be the last books before 6th edition)

Just wondering about the double Eldar entries and the lack of DA.

Oopsie. That list was just a guess of mine, the last Eldar should be Dark Angels.

Dark Angels, Eldar and Black Templar all got "sorta" 5th edition codex's so I suspect they will be closer to the end of the cycle, but there was also talk of doing "opposing armies back to back", so I figured Eldar would follow Dark Eldar.

@Defiler: IMO, if you switch Inquisition and Dark Eldar above, you're probably more in line with what's actually happening on the ground. I sorely doubt we'll see Dark Eldar until 2012, close to the release of 40k 6th.

Vhalyar wrote:

CrazyThang wrote:True, but it is kind of funny how they beep in DoW...

Which is rather stupid, since they are quite capable of talking as seen when you attack a stronghold
I guess Lords can't be arsed to talk in general because it takes computing power away from their eternal game of minesweeper.

Do they all beep though? If I remember right, it's only tomb spyders and builder scarabs (the actual "robots") that beep.

And the only talking Necron in the game is the Pariah because he's half-human anyway. Presumably -and this is assuming the game is canon - the C'Tan selected him as a herald. Although since the 'crons insist on killing everyone anyway, one would wonder why they would need one except for dramatic license.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Defiler: IMO, if you switch Inquisition and Dark Eldar above, you're probably more in line with what's actually happening on the ground. I sorely doubt we'll see Dark Eldar until 2012, close to the release of 40k 6th.

Wherein they will be promptly obsoleted by new rules!

Actually, I was considering trying out DE. I kinda like the models.

Off topic but you have Necrons and would like to expand to Dark Eldar?

You must like to live without updated codicies.

If they made both of them cool AND competitive I'm sure more players would start the armies. (DE /'Crons)

Noobtodagame wrote:Off topic but you have Necrons and would like to expand to Dark Eldar?

You must like to live without updated codicies.

If they made both of them cool AND competitive I'm sure more players would start the armies. (DE /'Crons)

Eh, I'm a dabbler. There are actually only a few armies I'm NOT interested in playing.

My next army will most certainly be BA though.

Defiler wrote:Dark Angels, Eldar and Black Templar all got "sorta" 5th edition codex's...

No they didn't. The Black Templars aren't even in the current (nonsensical) style of Codex. The Templars were a 4th Codex through and through.

The only 5th Ed Codex to come out in 4th was Codexaemons, and you could stretch that a bit for Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Defiler: IMO, if you switch Inquisition and Dark Eldar above, you're probably more in line with what's actually happening on the ground. I sorely doubt we'll see Dark Eldar until 2012, close to the release of 40k 6th.

You just can't help yourself can you?