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Lord-Loss wrote:I don't see the point in picking on someone straight away, when you got no evidence of them being suspicous.

This is called the random voting stage, and I believe you understand it.

As far as Stynier 'pushing too hard' on Drk_O or 'calling for an early lynch' of Drk_O. I will first off note that Drk_O only has two votes on him (though I'm still begging for 1-2 other people to vote for him already) and second off, could you please go and quote exactly where Stynier was too vicious? I do not see it at all and still don't understand where this pressure of yours is coming from. Show me the quote where Stynier crossed the line or please drop this topic as I see it currently going nowhere.

Lord-Loss, since you're at least here and responding - I've asked people to add 1-2 votes to both BishopGore and Drk_O or to explain why they feel their current vote is better. Why do you feel better about your current vote then either a Drk_O or BishopGore vote? (and if you answer with "I feel there isn't enough evidence yet" or a "I feel it's just as good" then please move you vote because if it's all equal then you might as well humor me at this stage)

Thor I don't entirely agree with your scenarios there is a possible last one which is that an imposter counter claims thus fooling the rest into lynching me and saving their night kill for someone else. Like the last day phase when everyone becomes the Inquisitor for some reason.

There's also no other way to prove that I actually am without breaking the rules or simply dieing. But, I supose if people believe my first investigation and it turns out to be true that would be enough evidence, although it's simply easier said than done

At any rate I'll have those steallers confused long enough for a decent counter plan to trap them. And this will be enough for any future Inquisitors to build up tactics from as this, which is that it is probably a good thing to never reveal if you're the Inquisitor.

n0t_u wrote:Thor I don't entirely agree with your scenarios there is a possible last one which is that an imposter counter claims thus fooling the rest into lynching me and saving their night kill for someone else. Like the last day phase when everyone becomes the Inquisitor for some reason.

A Genestealer fake counter-claim against you on Day 2 would be something I'd be quite happy with and feel would help town. On Day 2 if someone counter claims we lynch either them or you and will catch the Genestealer either then or by Day 3 - which is good for town. That's why I said I would call for counter-claims Day 2. If a counter claim shows up Day 3 or later we lynch that person first because they'll be obv scum at that point.

@Gornall, I unvoted Thor on Page 2

Thor665 wrote: Also, we've already got at least one more valuable information lynch to look at in the BishopGore potential lynch as well as the player who is (in my opinion) the only one who has thus far done anything that I would call an actual scumtell, and that's Drk_O.

Thor, instead of just stating your opinion, can you explain why your opinion is why it is?

BrotherStynier wrote:This is all assuming that others jump in on Drk_O,something that might not happen assuming he responds to the suspicion leveled at him. Though once more I state that losing his odd posts would not be a bad thing.

I think I tried to respond to Thor's suspicion (and, yours, by extention) on page 2 here

BrotherStynier wrote:Your statements to the fact of me "wanting a lynch". I do think Drk_O being removed could be helpful regardless of his role, and I wanted to let you all know that I firmly believed that. But your statements could easily make me look rather scummy, more so than I would already appear by simply stating he is valuable to us dead.

He post first post was odd enough, it was evidence enough that he would fill this thread in babble that would be more harmful than good. (No offense Drk_O, sometime I find your antics amusing but after several loses I think its time the town wins one) Because I feel this way, and at least partially have the support of one other on the matter I voted. Of course it doesn't mean I want to remove him with out getting anything out of day one other than a lynch.

I'd like to think a simple "Hey, cut it out" would have been ok. I never realised I was bothering or hindering anyone (as I stated before (see link))

I promise to focus alittle more, then maybe try to balance out, but that's a ways of.

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:

Thor665 wrote: Also, we've already got at least one more valuable information lynch to look at in the BishopGore potential lynch as well as the player who is (in my opinion) the only one who has thus far done anything that I would call an actual scumtell, and that's Drk_O.

Thor, instead of just stating your opinion, can you explain why your opinion is why it is?

Sure...though in your next post I'd like to see you actually try to offer any opinion on anyone as opposed to, once again, simply appearing helpful without any schumhunting.

I consider BishopGore a good 'information' lynch because of his relationship with Vulkan. The 'I didn't see that' thing is odd, and Bishop's defense of it was that he 'wanted information the town didn't have'. Since the purpose here is for town to catch Genestealers this is *very* scummy. Therefore I think there's a reasonable chance that BishopGore is a Genestealer and would like to see him lynched to see which way he flips. If he flips scum I would then be very suspicious of Vulkan and if he flips town he would finish clearing Vulkan as town. Also, with the way some players hopped on BG/Vulkan fairly early and quickly over this it would give me more information to assess whether they were scum or town (one of the reasons I was trying to get other players to express their opinions about BG and Vulkan)

I consider you [Drk_O] the scummiest player here because of the reasons noted up at the top of this post. You have on multiple occasions had me note that you're trying to look busy without actually doing anything to help scumhunting. You then always apologize and say you'll work harder at scumhunting...without actually *ever* doing so. This makes you an information black hole and suggests you are trying to appease me while still flying under the radar and not giving anything away - which looks very scummy to me. Also, though it's a minor point to the scum case on you, you voted me in RVS after I had voted you. This is known as OMGUS (oh my gawd, you suck) and is a minor potential scumtell because it suggests you're trying to ward people off of voting for you by showing that you'll vote for them if they do. It's not much, but paired with the previous evidence (which is a solid scum tell) it helps paint the picture more. Therefore I want you lynched because I think you are a likely Genestealer

If there's anything there you don't understand feel free to ask for clarification.

Current Vote Count:

0- Thor
0- DDRE
0- Lord-Loss
1- Mekboy..............(Lord Loss)
1- Fifty...................(Arheiner)
0- Vulkan_Hestan
0- Arheiner
2- BishopGore.........(DDRE, n0t_U)
0- Brother Stynier
2- Drk_Oblit............(Thor, Brother Stynier)
1- Shas O'vera........(Fifty)
0- Ferret
1- Not U.................(Vulkan)

With 13 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

BrotherStynier wrote:Looks as though Drk_O will be going his similar route, which means he'll probably make people go, "Is he or isn't he?"

He could tell this after one post? Maybe after two or three but I think his was just making assumptions here.

VOTE: Dark_O should he be a stealer well hey that's great, if he's not a least the suspect list is shorter.

This isn't a RVS vote and shows it's not a pressure vote either, Stynier already decided he wants to lynch Derek. If he just wanted to put pressure on Derek to make him act sensibly but he doesn't.

Lord-Loss wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:VOTE: Dark_O should he be a stealer well hey that's great, if he's not a least the suspect list is shorter.

This isn't a RVS vote and shows it's not a pressure vote either, Stynier already decided he wants to lynch Derek. If he just wanted to put pressure on Derek to make him act sensibly but he doesn't.

I submit the RVS part was based on him making the early claim of 'Drk_O is going to be distracting and hard to read' and that is perfectly a logical RVS to make after one post by the target. (@LL - do you think Drk_O has proven Stynier wrong thus far? If no, then this makes sense - make an accusation on what evidence is available [one post] and maintain it if nothing changes. Do you think Stynier's prediction/accusation has been proven wrong, if not what is the issue with the RVS logic?)

As far as pressure - if a pressure vote isn't put on with a willingness to actually see the person you're pressuring be lynched, then it's not a pressure vote. I support this vote for the pressure it puts (and want 1-2 more, as I've been saying - and am frustrated that no one is responding to this, even insomuch as the decency to tell me to stuff it.)

Also, in my last post responding to you I asked you about your Mekboy vote and whether or not you would change it to Drk_O or BishopGore. I would still love that answer. I'll re-ask it;

Lord-Loss, since you're at least here and responding - I've asked people to add 1-2 votes to both BishopGore and Drk_O or to explain why they feel their current vote is better. Why do you feel better about your current vote then either a Drk_O or BishopGore vote? (and if you answer with "I feel there isn't enough evidence yet" or a "I feel it's just as good" then please move you vote because if it's all equal then you might as well humor me at this stage)

Thor, I think you've misunderstood one thing. You heavily imply that I am doing so on purpose. Also, you seem to also have missed or ignored this post, where I did offer oppinions on Bishop and n0t_u. Even speculating that Bishop may be a NLA.

I didn't think about the whole OMGUS thing, it was a random vote though. I voted for you because I was going to vote for someone, and you jumped out at me as someone to vote for. If anything, it was that you said something about me than the vote.

I think I know what role you are, through random vibes, and something I thought about something you said. But you'll have to read my mind to figure it out. Or you could ask, but I don't want to come out and say it, and neither does the town.

Besides n0t_u and Bishop, I don't really have oppinions on anyone else, though I'm 100% sure Vulkan is a civillian, but everyone knows that. I don't really have anything new to add.

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Besides n0t_u and Bishop, I don't really have oppinions on anyone else, though I'm 100% sure Vulkan is a civillian, but everyone knows that. I don't really have anything new to add.

I guardedly agree about Vulkan, and at the very least support a Bishop lynch prior to a Vulkan lynch. I disagree with any movement to vote n0t_u during this Phase. I will note in the post you linked you expressed opinions about Stynier but have now apparently dropped thos opinions. Is this simply fear of being accused of targeting him because he's targeting you, or have you changed your attitude towards him?

Since you are not voting anyone, and you have expressed suspicion of BishopGore - is there a reason not to vote for him? Shouldn't you be at least voting one of your suspects? It's not like there's a risk of a quick lynch at this stage. The sooner we get out more votes (and hopefully get a wagon or two rolling) the sooner we will have more evidence to talk about. Everyone going quiet and not voting does not help our goal to move discussion and the Day along.

Oh, and because I feel I'm being too active in a desperate attempt to get all of you active I am also making a vow. I will not post again in this thread until at least three players who are not LL, Drk_O, or Brother Stynier come in and make a legitimate comment.

I would also like to see more vote consolidation - all of you who have a single vote on someone you should either defend why you are on that vote and try to get other people to vote that way, or you should consolidate onto another vote that seems more likely to be scum.

Thorr. All your hype is doing is making me feel like we should knock you off first. And I say this in the most loving way. People who make hype for discussion's sake (I must say my first time I was guilty of this) end up clouding the issue. Let people make their own decisions instead of starting an ultimatum vote choice.

Thor665 wrote:

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Besides n0t_u and Bishop, I don't really have oppinions on anyone else, though I'm 100% sure Vulkan is a civillian, but everyone knows that. I don't really have anything new to add.

I guardedly agree about Vulkan, and at the very least support a Bishop lynch prior to a Vulkan lynch. I disagree with any movement to vote n0t_u during this Phase. I will note in the post you linked you expressed opinions about Stynier but have now apparently dropped thos opinions. Is this simply fear of being accused of targeting him because he's targeting you, or have you changed your attitude towards him?

Since you are not voting anyone, and you have expressed suspicion of BishopGore - is there a reason not to vote for him? Shouldn't you be at least voting one of your suspects? It's not like there's a risk of a quick lynch at this stage. The sooner we get out more votes (and hopefully get a wagon or two rolling) the sooner we will have more evidence to talk about. Everyone going quiet and not voting does not help our goal to move discussion and the Day along.

I never mentioned voting for n0t_u, as I strongly beleive that he is, or at least deserves a voting free period for badassery.

I said in my post that I was pretty sure my suspicions were a knee jerk reaction I wasn't going to act on, and I didn't feel the need to hold onto them.

You're definately right that I should be voting, it more or less slipped my mind. But I'll sleep on it, as it's 1:09am, and I feel I should wait alittle longer, to avoid voting so close to someone asking me why I wasn't voting.

@the_ferrettt, I have to disagree with you about Thor, at least a little. If only one or two people are posting, there really is no issue to cloud.

damn, this may be my second game but im still a bit of a noob at this, sorry about not saying anything that helps anyone in any way.

I think the best course of action I could undertake is to state a list of people I find suspicious and why...

1.Vulkan, although his strange entry might just be a bit of a fumble on his part, I find it quite strange. He then voted for BishopGore, claiming that he had done so using a random name generator. I find this to be either:

A)Badly crafted excuse to try and quell fears that he and Bishop voted for each other because they are stealers.

or

B)Rather dangerous dis-interest in what is going on. While this dis-interest might not be overly scummy it hampers us in many a way. As if all of us aren't committed to putting time and effort into finding the genestealers, they will surely succeed in their attempts to secure victory.

2.BishopGore, his early,"I'll pretend I didn't see that." Comment along with him then claiming that he pretended as such because he wanted to keep the information to himself, are highly suspect.

3.Shaso, simply because I can't get a read off him. His coments are few and far between and when they are added, add nothing to conversation as such(not so far atleast).

Sorry if this is one of those,"talk a lot say nothing," posts. I just felt I had to attempt to keep conversation going.

Gornall, have you prodded Mekboy yet?

Edited to fix spelling.

I just got the impression that BishopGore was trying to play within the rules and figure things out the way it is intended, not that he was attempting to give up an advantage.

I do not see that post by BishopGore as being scummy. Nothing else he has done has jumped out at me.

For the most part he is at the bottom of my suspect list(the above list was done in no particular order). I was merely hoping to entice some sort of reaction from him, as he still hasn't answered me as to who he finds suspicious.

the_ferrett wrote:Thorr. All your hype is doing is making me feel like we should knock you off first. And I say this in the most loving way. People who make hype for discussion's sake (I must say my first time I was guilty of this) end up clouding the issue. Let people make their own decisions instead of starting an ultimatum vote choice.

I have requested people to either defend their vote or shift their vote and have included where I feel those votes would be best used. This more then leaves the door open enough for them to come to their own conclusion if they want to defend their vote. I'll also add, you were guilty your first time because you claimed you had a plan when you did not - you were not under suspicion for being too active. Also, being too active is not a scum tell unless you can attach some other guilt to it (also look at the other two Genestealer games I've played on this site - one I was town and one I was scum and I was highly active in both).

Voting a single person, having no one else vote that person, and then remaining quiet DOES NOT HELP. If you disagree, then show me how it does or show me where I'm trying to prevent people from expressing their own opinions.

shas'o vera wrote:damn, this may be my second game but im still a bit of a noob at this, sorry about not saying anything that helps anyone in any way.

I have offered up possible avenues for people who do not have clear ideas of how to help. If you're at a total loss on how to help find scum you should at least be willing to guess at who you think might be town and then follow their lead. At the very absolute least you ought to be trying to offer some of your opinions on how people are acting - we've had this conversation before.

Fifty wrote:I do not see that post by BishopGore as being scummy. Nothing else he has done has jumped out at me.

I'll agree with you as far as he hasn't done anything else scummy besides that Vulkan oddity - but even BishopGore agrees his actions right then were potentially scummy. It might be he was just focused on 'playing within the rules' but he specifically stated this wasn't the case and claimed he was excited to perhaps have information the rest of the town did not. You're defending him by making up concepts he himself has denied and that's really odd. Explanation?

Mekboy has been notified and if I don't hear from him today or before noon tomorrow, he's gone.

BishopGore wrote:Heh, yeah, that was a stupid thing to say. I can't talk about other games, so it's possibly because at some point he was in a situation where he's about to be lynched and I didn't want him modkilled in this one too.

What are you talking about - he was trying to avoid the guy getting modkilled. That is pretty much what I was saying - by saying he hadn't seen anything, he hoped to allow modkill to be avoided.

@Drk_O much of what Thor has said regarding your actions is pretty much how I feel.

On the matter of you not doing your talk a lot and say nothing consciously, I have a hard time believing that. You've done this every game you have been in so far.

How ever, looking back I do feel that Bishop and Vulkan have been acting strange and that it may be worth prioritizing one of them and then coming back to Drk_O at a later time, perhaps day two should Bishop or Vulkan role over as a loyalist.

So Thor wants me to die in a bid for information. Fair enough.

DDRE, I can't remember if I replied here yet, I'm feeling very bowled over so far by the sheer force and aggression of the logic flying around. I have strong skills in logic when faced with a logical framework (I'm a computer programmer), but outside of that my mind is far too free roaming to settle and home in on something with such force. It's really unnerving.

I can see the_ferrett's point of Thor being a little overbearing, but he stated he would be and it seems more like I'm lashing out at my main attacker.

If there were 3 stealers in this game I would say n0t_u is one of them, as it is safe for them to gamble one of their number on such a crazy claim with the hope of drawing out the real inquisitor, but with only 2 (as Gornall has said) the risk would be way too high, so I reckon n0t_u has to be a pro-towner.

Vulkan and Shas are acting as towners with no reason to enjoy the game, so I don't see either of them as suspects.

I have no clue about Drk, as he's not someone I've really interacted with yet.

Hope this helps a little.

BishopGore wrote:I have no clue about Drk, as he's not someone I've really interacted with yet.

Why is that? You're my number one suspect? I used a whole paragraph speculating that you're either a Genestealer or a NLA, and I still stand by some of it.

vote:BishopGore

So lets force interaction

Vote: Thor
Because his guidance, if just guidance is a little overbearing, and if he's a genestealer he's got control over who's lynched.

Fifty wrote:What are you talking about - he was trying to avoid the guy getting modkilled. That is pretty much what I was saying - by saying he hadn't seen anything, he hoped to allow modkill to be avoided.

And if you'd kept reading where I was pressuring BishopGore on his choice you would have found this (em);

BishopGore wrote:If I had been the only one to see Vulkan's slip up (if it WAS a slip up) then firstly it seemed unfair of me to call attention to it (I like the underdog) and secondly I guess I liked the idea of being the only one to know. Which is horribly suspicious. I'm not doing well so far today.

That's what I'm talking about and that's why I'm questioning your read there.

BishopGore wrote:So Thor wants me to die in a bid for information. Fair enough.

I will note, I consider you my 2nd to 3rd suspect. I feel Drk_O is a superior lynch because he's actually done something scummy. You *may* have done something scummy, but your lynch has some advantages on a pure informational scale to Drk_O's (at least at the moment)

I can see the_ferrett's point of Thor being a little overbearing, but he stated he would be and it seems more like I'm lashing out at my main attacker.

You can lash out at your main attacker though personally I would presume for you it would be one of the people voting for you as opposed to me, again, I have listed you as a secondary reasonable lynch candidate and also a wagon I want to see more voters on, I have not said I believe you are scummy, though I do believe you have done some scummy things (if you can follow that logic). I certainly wouldn't find you attacking me at this stage inherently scummy, though I'll probably have an axe to grind with you if you use ferret's logic as a basis; as I find it terrible. But don't be afraid to call someone out if you find them scummy even if they are attacking you - after all, if they're scum they're attacking you for bad reasons anyway and need to be caught/stopped.

I am also a touch overbearing (I prefer to think of it as pleasantly insightful, fyi) because as probably one of the more experienced players on this site I feel it is helpful for me to be loud about my methods and allow other players to see how I work them (so we can have less players like shas'o who are struggling with even *how* to scumhunt, much less doing it well). I do not claim my methods are perfect, but they do work for me, and the message about posting analysis of player's and actions (however you form that analysis) is indeed a universally agreed upon aspect of Mafia strategy - and might be about the only one at that. To catch scum you need information about how other players feel towards each other - ergo, you need analysis conversation. I support many different varieties of scumhunting as long as scumhunting is actually happening. I do not support silence and "waiting for a mistake" as that is known as lurking and is only a really solid strategy for scum to use, thus town shouldn't.

the_ferrett wrote:Because his guidance, if just guidance is a little overbearing, and if he's a genestealer he's got control over who's lynched.

I've only got 'control' if the rest of the town sits there in odd silence waiting for me to declare who they should scumhunt on. I am in absolute favor for more people to scumhunt more. Is there more to your accusation then that I am actively working for a lynch (which we do need to do) and most everyone else is being relatively quiet (which I am arguing loudly against)?

I am satisfied with where my vote currently sits.

Current Vote Count:

1- Thor..................(Ferret)
0- DDRE
0- Lord-Loss
1- Mekboy..............(Lord Loss)
1- Fifty...................(Arheiner)
0- Vulkan_Hestan
0- Arheiner
3- BishopGore.........(DDRE, n0t_U, Dark_O)
0- Brother Stynier
2- Drk_Oblit............(Thor, Brother Stynier)
1- Shas O'vera........(Fifty)
0- Ferret
1- Not U.................(Vulkan)

With 13 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Thor665 wrote:A Genestealer fake counter-claim against you on Day 2 would be something I'd be quite happy with and feel would help town. On Day 2 if someone counter claims we lynch either them or you and will catch the Genestealer either then or by Day 3 - which is good for town. That's why I said I would call for counter-claims Day 2. If a counter claim shows up Day 3 or later we lynch that person first because they'll be obv scum at that point.

Well then I guess I will be the least useless Inquisitor I've seen
As long as there's a Psyker around to allow me to do at least one investigation though.

Okay, I guess what Bishop Gore said there was potentially scummy. If he liked "being the only one" as a player of the game, it is definitely a scumtell. If he liked it as a real-world person, it just makes him a poor player... Either way, it doesn't look good.

The genestealers only get to talk during the Night Phase, so they won't have been able to discuss their tactics yet anyway. (Unless they have not read the first post thoroughly... *sigh*)