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Here's my thoughts on matchups against the new GK dex.

MC based tyranids are fethed. The ability to throw out so much ID and the fact that Tyranids have no Eternal Warrior means that any 6 (or 5+ with some hammerhand lovin') to wound means that a monsterous creature is being taken off the table. Hord nids might stand a chance, but the Purifier's cleansing flame is going to do horrible things to them, and massed Halberds makes Genestealers much less scary than they used to be. Tyranids lacking low AP ranged options also hurts them a lot in this matchup.

Massed Halberds and roided out Rifleman Dreadnoughts also present a big problem for Dark Eldar, but the massed low AP firepower should keep this matchup fairly even. Dark Eldar should be very careful in close combat though. Halberds will ruin their day. That's not to say that they can't win in CC against the Grey Knights, just expect to take more losses. Incubi will get eaten alive, but Wytches should be fine so long as you keep them cheap (since they will die).
Dark Eldar are probably the most mobile army in the game. They really need to abuse that if they want to beat GK.

Eldar are in a similar position to Dark Eldar, except more shooty. Banshees will decimate most of this army in close quarters (just be weary around any unit containing a model with Psychostroke Grenades, but that should be a rule of thumb for every army looking to fight Grey Knights up close), but actually getting there against all that excellent S4/5/7 and rending firepower will be another issue. Once you've gotten rid of the interceptors, the goal of the Eldar should be to wipe out any Rifleman Dreadnoughts and then use their superior mobility to kite and keep killing them off with bright lances and other low AP weapons (will starcannons make a comeback?). Getting a within 24 inches of a psycannon will be scary for any Eldar vehicle, but it's only 24 inches.

Gaurd should be fine. Leafblower lists and gunlines should have very little trouble getting enough massed firepower to wipe out whatever GK throw at them with either torrent of fire or high strength, low AP templates. Mech vet gaurd loaded up on plasma and melta don't have too much to fear first. Just take out anything that is scary to your transports first (Rifleman Dreads are the devil!).

Orkz are in trouble. Nobz are utterly hopeless. Burnas and massed hordes could be an appropriate solution, but purifiers with cleansing flame and paladins with holocaust are a serious issue for the boyz. Paladins, especially with an apothecary (against orkz is one of the few situations where I would earnestly recommend an apothecary), are also exceptionally scary for orkz, since they lack the high strength/low AP firepower that most armies can use to easily deal with Paladins.

Space Wolves could also be in trouble. Long Fangs are awesome, but if a GK player gets first turn and decent rolls on The Grand Strategy, Interceptor Squads could effectively neuter the puppies before they even get to play. TWC is also in trouble, with massed instant death capable of killing the wolves en masse, and if they take halberds, before the wolves even get to attack. Kitted out Wolf-Lords will still be very threatening, but they'll get torn apart on their own. Never take a Space Wolf deathstar against a Grey Knight deathstar, the wolves will lose.
Thankfully though, well balanced wolf lists should do fine. Once again, just be weary of close combat. Both armies excell at mid-range combat. This'll be a close matchup. Land Raiders may be very useful, but a pissed off Vindicare or Inquisitional Retinue loaded up on Melta could spell the end for one very quickly.

Normal smurfs are in trouble, but TH/SS terminators will still be very scary. Loading up on high Strength, low AP weaponry should be standard by now, by and large, they just won't be able to win in close quarters. Proper target selection tactics will win the day here. Once again, Land Raiders are threatening, just be weary of the anti-tank measures your opponent has made. Lydander could be very useful here.

Blood Angels are kind of in a bind. Feel no Pain is useless in close combat against these guys, so BA will need to rely on firefights to do a lot of damage before swooping in for the kill. What's more, Halberds striking at I6 makes furious charge a lot less scary, cutting down the Blood Angels before they even get to attack. This'll be a tough matchup, since BA lose a lot of the advantages that they have over normal marines against Grey Knights. Mephiston's I7 still makes him very threatening, just don't run him up against a Grand Master (the two will undoubtly kill one another) or Draigo (who will bend Mephiston over and feth him in ways Lysander could only imagine).

Dark Angels are fethed. Deathwing's got nothing on GK, and when's the last time you saw a competetive Ravenwing army?

Black Templar are in a similar situation to Dark Angels. They can try to horde the Grey Knights, but they're only as durable as Orkz when you account for the fact that every Grey Knight has a power weapon. Best to leave these boys at home.

Necrons are crap anyway, nothing to see here. Interceptor scouts will see to it that Necrons phase out even faster.

Tau are once again, interesting. Short of Paladins (who should be eating concentrated railgun fire every single turn), GKs still die like normal marines. Concentrated firepower will still be useful here. But Interceptors will be able to shut down tau heavy firepower absurdly quickly.

shealyr wrote:No limit on number of Temple assassins, so you CAN SPAM 3 VINDICARES. Shame that the Callidus got nerfed. Eversor doesn't even have Infiltrate, ftw? It's like Ward was determined that no assassin other than the sniper would be taken...

Oh well. I'm definitely taking 3 Vindicares now.

Look again. Assassins are unique.

Vindicares are going to be brutal even if there's only 1. Stick him in some decent cover and it's going to be like getting rid of herpes. Except this herpes wounds on 2+, penetrates on 4d6, or removes inv save wargear.

Is there a cream for that?

There is, it's called KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Stavkat wrote:
Heh, I've been talking about that with people from 3++ for quite awhile. You could be crazy and throw in a Stormraven too, but that ups the points quite a bit. Remember, the rules as written now allowing teleporting during the Scout move, so it is even crazier than you wrote. The dreadknights, with scout, can assault stuff first turn....

Scouting units aren't allowed to move within 12", so no alpha-strike Dreadknights (unless it somehow can move more than 6 inches, does the teleporter make it move like jump inf?)

The big decision for a grey knight army will be how you want to fill out your troops section. Despite their elite status, since they really aren’t any more survivable than a normal marine you really need to fill out your squads to get as many warm bodies as you can on the table. To that end I think there will be 3 basic options.

1. 10xGrey Knight Strike Squad in a Rhino /w 2xPsycannons (260 points)
2. 8xPurifier squads in a rhino /w 2xPsycannons and 4xHalbards (260 points)
3. 5xTerminators /w 1xpsycannon and Brotherhood banner (250 points)

Once you pick your option you multiply that by 3-4 and that’s the start of your army. Don't forget to add the additional tax of a 150 points and a HQ slot for the purifiers. Honestly, the 150 points kind of sucks, but it's the loss of a useful HQ that really gimps their options. The good news is that no matter which option you chose your troops will be providing a good amount of firepower and can outperform many armies specilist units. Just don't let their power weapons fool you....Grey Knights are NOT a close combat oriented army.

As was noted earlier, unless you are taking some terminators getting any cool grey knight characters will be a challenge since they are all in Terminator armor and don't really have options for artificer armor. It's fluffy and all, but that really does leave us in a pickle on what to do with them. If you don't want them meched up but don't want to invest in a land raider one of the options I see is the Inquisitor death squad becoming popular. Consider;
7xCC Henchmen (Assassin/Crusader/ArcoFlaggent mix to taste), Inquisitor, Chimera = 185 points.

It does take up an HQ slot, but you get a deadly counter assault unit out of the deal and an additional vehicle to play with.

Here's my thoughts on matchups against the new GK dex.

MC based tyranids are fethed. The ability to throw out so much ID and the fact that Tyranids have no Eternal Warrior means that any 6 (or 5+ with some hammerhand lovin') to wound means that a monsterous creature is being taken off the table. Hord nids might stand a chance, but the Purifier's cleansing flame is going to do horrible things to them, and massed Halberds makes Genestealers much less scary than they used to be. Tyranids lacking low AP ranged options also hurts them a lot in this matchup.

Tyranids have had some trouble with the newer codices, but they should have the model count to do some damage. Keep in mind most big creatures have Shadow of the Warp, so making those LD9 psy tests isn't a guarantee.

Massed Halberds and roided out Rifleman Dreadnoughts also present a big problem for Dark Eldar, but the massed low AP firepower should keep this matchup fairly even. Dark Eldar should be very careful in close combat though. Halberds will ruin their day. That's not to say that they can't win in CC against the Grey Knights, just expect to take more losses. Incubi will get eaten alive, but Wytches should be fine so long as you keep them cheap (since they will die).
Dark Eldar are probably the most mobile army in the game. They really need to abuse that if they want to beat GK.

This should be interesting as well. Dark Eldar will have the model count and speed to hurt them. If DE go first they should be able to pop transports (and GK will have less than normal Marines).

Eldar are in a similar position to Dark Eldar, except more shooty. Banshees will decimate most of this army in close quarters (just be weary around any unit containing a model with Psychostroke Grenades, but that should be a rule of thumb for every army looking to fight Grey Knights up close), but actually getting there against all that excellent S4/5/7 and rending firepower will be another issue. Once you've gotten rid of the interceptors, the goal of the Eldar should be to wipe out any Rifleman Dreadnoughts and then use their superior mobility to kite and keep killing them off with bright lances and other low AP weapons (will starcannons make a comeback?). Getting a within 24 inches of a psycannon will be scary for any Eldar vehicle, but it's only 24 inches.

Runes of Warding essentially shuts down all psychic powers. Still, Eldar aren't incredibly competitive as is. I actually think GK will have some issues here. The st 7 rending is almost meaningless against Wave Serpents.

Gaurd should be fine. Leafblower lists and gunlines should have very little trouble getting enough massed firepower to wipe out whatever GK throw at them with either torrent of fire or high strength, low AP templates. Mech vet gaurd loaded up on plasma and melta don't have too much to fear first. Just take out anything that is scary to your transports first (Rifleman Dreads are the devil!).

Guard should be fine. They have the high ap stuff and GK are only more survivable in CC; shooting still rocks them.

Orkz are in trouble. Nobz are utterly hopeless. Burnas and massed hordes could be an appropriate solution, but purifiers with cleansing flame and paladins with holocaust are a serious issue for the boyz. Paladins, especially with an apothecary (against orkz is one of the few situations where I would earnestly recommend an apothecary), are also exceptionally scary for orkz, since they lack the high strength/low AP firepower that most armies can use to easily deal with Paladins.

I can see Orks hurting lots as well. Purifiers will be horrible to massive squads of Orks. Still, they have to pop battlewagons most of the time. That isn't always easy with only st 7 rending.

Space Wolves could also be in trouble. Long Fangs are awesome, but if a GK player gets first turn and decent rolls on The Grand Strategy, Interceptor Squads could effectively neuter the puppies before they even get to play. TWC is also in trouble, with massed instant death capable of killing the wolves en masse, and if they take halberds, before the wolves even get to attack. Kitted out Wolf-Lords will still be very threatening, but they'll get torn apart on their own. Never take a Space Wolf deathstar against a Grey Knight deathstar, the wolves will lose.
Thankfully though, well balanced wolf lists should do fine. Once again, just be weary of close combat. Both armies excell at mid-range combat. This'll be a close matchup. Land Raiders may be very useful, but a pissed off Vindicare or Inquisitional Retinue loaded up on Melta could spell the end for one very quickly.

Space Wolves are still a better list IMO. Rune Priests will be enough to shut down the powers of GK. The undercosted nature of Space Wolves will also help them to slightly outnumber GK.

Normal smurfs are in trouble, but TH/SS terminators will still be very scary. Loading up on high Strength, low AP weaponry should be standard by now, by and large, they just won't be able to win in close quarters. Proper target selection tactics will win the day here. Once again, Land Raiders are threatening, just be weary of the anti-tank measures your opponent has made. Lydander could be very useful here.

This should be tough. Still, most normal SM players are Vulcan players. They should be packing the specials and SS TH to beat GK.

Blood Angels are kind of in a bind. Feel no Pain is useless in close combat against these guys, so BA will need to rely on firefights to do a lot of damage before swooping in for the kill. What's more, Halberds striking at I6 makes furious charge a lot less scary, cutting down the Blood Angels before they even get to attack. This'll be a tough matchup, since BA lose a lot of the advantages that they have over normal marines against Grey Knights. Mephiston's I7 still makes him very threatening, just don't run him up against a Grand Master (the two will undoubtly kill one another) or Draigo (who will bend Mephiston over and feth him in ways Lysander could only imagine).

Blood Angels have the speed and firepower to win with Razorspam. Meph will not be very good though.

Dark Angels are fethed. Deathwing's got nothing on GK, and when's the last time you saw a competetive Ravenwing army?

Black Templar are in a similar situation to Dark Angels. They can try to horde the Grey Knights, but they're only as durable as Orkz when you account for the fact that every Grey Knight has a power weapon. Best to leave these boys at home.

Necrons are crap anyway, nothing to see here. Interceptor scouts will see to it that Necrons phase out even faster.

Tau are once again, interesting. Short of Paladins (who should be eating concentrated railgun fire every single turn), GKs still die like normal marines. Concentrated firepower will still be useful here. But Interceptors will be able to shut down tau heavy firepower absurdly quickly.

These armies aren't incredibly great to begin with. Deathwing is a fun gimmick. Ravenwing is done better in C:SM. Templar is also a gimmick. Crons and Tau are awful.

Overall, I still don't think GK will crack the top 3 and maybe even top 5 codices. They have some good stuff, but make a list and playtest them. They really don't get much....

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Stavkat wrote:
Heh, I've been talking about that with people from 3++ for quite awhile. You could be crazy and throw in a Stormraven too, but that ups the points quite a bit. Remember, the rules as written now allowing teleporting during the Scout move, so it is even crazier than you wrote. The dreadknights, with scout, can assault stuff first turn....

Scouting units aren't allowed to move within 12", so no alpha-strike Dreadknights (unless it somehow can move more than 6 inches, does the teleporter make it move like jump inf?)

Yes so it can.

Found a wierd problem with the grey knights codex. warrior acolytes have the option for 3 to take combi weapons... but right under that they can take the full version by replacing either their pistol or chainsword. ABOVE that the can replace either their pistol or chainsword for a bolter..... so they can have both for 6 point or trade in 1 for 10 and only have a one use special weapon.

I am confused how that is a "weird problem". It's unusual that anyone would pay more points to have a combi and a pistol then just having a bolter and a special, but they don't function exactly the same, so having the option to do so is not in itself a problem.

no, they'd function exactly the same that's the problem. Exchanging one negates the +1a bonus for pistol as you don't have a second CCW. you are litterally paying more for a crappier loadout.

Um... where's the issue? Combis and specials cost the same. You either take a combi for X pts, or take the special and bolter for X+Y pts.

Crappier is your opinion; they do not function the same, as having a pistol will let you shoot 1 shot at 12 and assault, and counts as a ccw in assault. If you trade both out, you have no CCW and can't shoot (besides your melta/flamer) before assaulting.
Again, is that a good choice to make? no; but since when do they only put good options in a codex?

Magister187 wrote:Crappier is your opinion; they do not function the same, as having a pistol will let you shoot 1 shot at 12 and assault, and counts as a ccw in assault. If you trade both out, you have no CCW and can't shoot (besides your melta/flamer) before assaulting.
Again, is that a good choice to make? no; but since when do they only put good options in a codex?

um you can shoot with a melta gun and a flamer before charging..... and those are infinately better than a single str 3 laspistol... besides what are you doing charging with warrior acolytes anyway?

I'm just glad pure Inquisition is still an option.

I was looking into doing 3 different list:

1st was Crowe with 6 10 man purifier squads w razorbacks 4 psycannons with the up rade that makes them strength 8
96 strength 8 shots a turn with 30 grey knights rolliing up to finish you off.

2nd 3 Storm ravens filled with death cult assasins
pick your fire base the are plenty to choose from

3rd Lots terminators

Alll 3 will be tough.

psy cannons can't be upgraded to str 8. They already have the psy ammunition.

Honestly looks like GW wanted to up their sales for everything...terminators, IG, Dreads, Rhino chasis, LR, StormRavens, Chimeras.

They made the codex so everyone can play whatever they want in a competative way.

2nd 3 Storm ravens filled with death cult assasins
pick your fire base the are plenty to choose from

Look at death cult assasins again...no frag gernades. That makes them significantly less worth it because if they arn't going first then they have a very high likelyhood of just outright dieing. Try crusader filled with death cult assasins.

Storm Raven with a mixed unit of crusaders and death cultists is probably smarter

Quick question, as I don't have a copy of the dex here.

Can a lascannon dread take psybolt ammo? If so, I have a new vehicle sniper

It doesn't work on lascannons...but sure!

Curses! Ah well, S9 still hurts, lots.

I actually had to do a double take with NFW. Proper, honest to god FORCE weapons. I can take the loss of True Grit with the addition of force weapons for everyone.

losing S6 sucks hardcore though...

Ah, well. Gotta take the rough with the smooth.

Mhmm...and we got S10 Knights...so I guess it evens out...

But what we need to get rid of now is the bandwagon...it won't be long before these GKs noobs start losing and back away from our army.

I won't mention that I'm actually starting the army with this new codex If it's any consolation, I've been wanting to start them for a while.

Hahaha...no worries...it's going to happen.

GKs were my first army.

I had to learn the game and learn fast...I have been with the army so long I have won tournaments with PAGK GKs...something that was until recently taboo all across warhammer.

So...while you're looking into this army my advice is this. Grey Knights are a water army...and that hasn't changed with this new dex...your army is going to have to be a reactionary force...that's why Grand Strategy is going to be the GKs greatest ally. We are those who can take any opponent and adapt to them pre-game without changing an army list.

Treat every man like it is his last turn. You don't have the option of think of anything with a 3+ armor save as expendable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a link to the old school way of approaching GKs...

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214

I agree with most everything except using the Land Raiders...too expensive for me.

I disagree Ductvader. I see it as a very aggressive army now. You have the ability to make your opponent react to you. I've never lost to a "water-warrior" style GK list. Why? Because I could dictate the pace of the game.

Oh well. I think the new GK's will be able to be played in a ridiculous number of ways. I'm really looking forward to it.