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gendoikari87 wrote:

Magister187 wrote:Crappier is your opinion; they do not function the same, as having a pistol will let you shoot 1 shot at 12 and assault, and counts as a ccw in assault. If you trade both out, you have no CCW and can't shoot (besides your melta/flamer) before assaulting.
Again, is that a good choice to make? no; but since when do they only put good options in a codex?

um you can shoot with a melta gun and a flamer before charging..... and those are infinately better than a single str 3 laspistol... besides what are you doing charging with warrior acolytes anyway?

Could you at least read what I am posting when you quote it, or something. I literally mention flamers and melta guns in that paragraph.
The point I'm trying to make for you is that while it may be a horrible use of points, completely worthless to any competitive 40k player, having the ability to take a special weapon AND a bolter does not make the option of taking a combi-weapon a "weird problem". All it is is a different choice. Maybe for WYSWYG purposes, maybe for fluff reasons, who knows.

Does anyone know if the Razorbacks and Land Raiders can take/upgrade/buy psycannons?

Cerebrium wrote:Quick question, as I don't have a copy of the dex here.

Can a lascannon dread take psybolt ammo? If so, I have a new vehicle sniper

Just saying, as a Black Templar player who can take tank hunter on a dread, it isn't as good as it sounds. While it IS S10, it's only 1 shot, and not AP2 like railguns. Although that might just be me rolling waaaaay too many 1's on the vehicle damage chart...

whill4 wrote:Does anyone know if the Razorbacks and Land Raiders can take/upgrade/buy psycannons?

No, but an Assault Cannon upgraded with Psybolt Ammunition has the exact same profile.

Honestly, your best bet with Razorback spam is to just give them Psybolts. Rockin' the S6 Heavy Bolters actually isn't bad AT against a lot of armies...

Thanks for the reply.

I kind of agree that this new codex changes the momentum for the GKs. I also am an old-school GK player, and the hardest thing I always had to deal with was that the extra points on them were largely for taking on Daemons, and only Daemons. I also think that the gentleman who took them as his first army is either out of his gourd, or has solid brass ones! (Probably the latter, if he is winning tournaments!)
The new flavor allows the GKs to have nearly the same mobility with or with out transports, which is valuable because you can spend those extra points putting as many in as you can.
I also like the idea that many of the Daemon-killing factors, while still definitely present, have become optional, or more points-neutral. GKs are still going to be outnumbered as hell, but at least by less of a margin if you build your army right.
I also have to say, though, Razor Spam is something I'm going to avoid like the PLAGUE. As a theme player, I just can't get around the pure vanillization that puts on this army. Do that with normal Astartes; let the GKs do the cool stuff.
(And yes, I know that is a potent list, right now, but why play GKs if all you are going to do is cut/print what the normies are doing?)

Being a no-nonsense quick thread, comfirmation please on whether Karamazov is in the codex and opinions on any new rules. (This is based on seeing him on the product line and I already have him)

He's in the codex, I doubt he'll be incredibly competetive, but he looks pretty fun. He'd be great to deter enemies from assaulting your units, especially with elite units. Get assaulted by an enemy? Just survive until you're next shooting phase and then drop a big template on what's left.

Not great, but fun.

Vindicares look FUN.

Just as a small note to what the OP had originally posted, don't dismiss the GK's simply with a laugh. The GK's update looks to make them one of the most dangerous armies out there, very small and concentrated at that but nothing to laugh at. I don't want you, the OP, to be reading this and thinking I'm being snobby or anything but I'm just saying it as it is.

GK definitely got hit by the nerfbat here. Its ridiculous, let me name a few.

- halberd cost increased
- falchions no longer reroll to wound
- Warding staves only work in combat
- swords dont grant 1+ inv save to models without an original inv save.
- DK is t6 str 6.
- Mordracks terminators have lost a LOT of options, have had a absolute pricehike points wise, making them almost a bad choice to take.

Massed Halberds and roided out Rifleman Dreadnoughts also present a big problem for Dark Eldar, but the massed low AP firepower should keep this matchup fairly even. Dark Eldar should be very careful in close combat though. Halberds will ruin their day. That's not to say that they can't win in CC against the Grey Knights, just expect to take more losses. Incubi will get eaten alive, but Wytches should be fine so long as you keep them cheap (since they will die).
Dark Eldar are probably the most mobile army in the game. They really need to abuse that if they want to beat GK.

Hmm, how come. I see a massive uphill battle for GK against DE. The lance spam will mean no dreads will ever survive and all the DE army needs to do is stay back and lance spam or choose charge points with their superior speed.
A competent DE player will never allow the first deepstriking GK squads to survive the turn they enter.

Eldar are in a similar position to Dark Eldar, except more shooty. Banshees will decimate most of this army in close quarters (just be weary around any unit containing a model with Psychostroke Grenades, but that should be a rule of thumb for every army looking to fight Grey Knights up close), but actually getting there against all that excellent S4/5/7 and rending firepower will be another issue. Once you've gotten rid of the interceptors, the goal of the Eldar should be to wipe out any Rifleman Dreadnoughts and then use their superior mobility to kite and keep killing them off with bright lances and other low AP weapons (will starcannons make a comeback?). Getting a within 24 inches of a psycannon will be scary for any Eldar vehicle, but it's only 24 inches.

Then again I see lots of eldar armies with rune farseers flying around hiding in holo serpents.

How on earth are GK armies ever going to take on eldar with psychic tests being made at 3D6 and the source of this is a 15p eldar wargear that can be hidden in a nearly invincible out of reach skimmer?

Orkz are in trouble. Nobz are utterly hopeless. Burnas and massed hordes could be an appropriate solution, but purifiers with cleansing flame and paladins with holocaust are a serious issue for the boyz. Paladins, especially with an apothecary (against orkz is one of the few situations where I would earnestly recommend an apothecary), are also exceptionally scary for orkz, since they lack the high strength/low AP firepower that most armies can use to easily deal with Paladins.

I really wonder how GWs dev team thought this matchup up. Orks stand absolutely no chance in hell vs GK armies.

Normal smurfs are in trouble, but TH/SS terminators will still be very scary. Loading up on high Strength, low AP weaponry should be standard by now, by and large, they just won't be able to win in close quarters. Proper target selection tactics will win the day here. Once again, Land Raiders are threatening, just be weary of the anti-tank measures your opponent has made. Lydander could be very useful here.

I see a bright future for my Vulkan Salamanders. TH/SS squads will be the absolute bane of the GKs. A combination of plain devastator squads and hammer terminators is nearly unbeatable for GK.
Those army build are one of my favorite ones and now will become even more powerful, hmm, mixed feelings about that one since I like my GKs as well.

Gaurd should be fine. Leafblower lists and gunlines should have very little trouble getting enough massed firepower to wipe out whatever GK throw at them with either torrent of fire or high strength, low AP templates. Mech vet gaurd loaded up on plasma and melta don't have too much to fear first. Just take out anything that is scary to your transports first (Rifleman Dreads are the devil!).

As for guard the tanks are really only the worrysome things. GK have access to relatively cheap (for what they so) S6 AP4 large pie spam that can be use indisciminately GK terminators dont care about.

One of the GK builds I will be experimenting with myself are all terminatorm, all deepstrike armies with psycannons, servo skulls and multiple techmarines with 3 large blast pies each each turn.

The build I would really like to try out is an all terminator (all can deepstrike):

Libby
3 X techhie with orbitals
5 X Termie squad - psycannon
2X rifle dreads
-Roughly 1850

Everything strikes close to or amongst the enemy lines, preferably into 3+ cover terrain with libby in the middle for a 2+ shrouding save and dread summoning and then proceed to either stand back and shoot or wade right in amongst the enemy not caring for assaults, charges or anything fragile or hordy with 9 big infantry and light transport killing blasts per turn that cant hurt themselves.

It´ll probably just be a fun army but I see potential in it if tweaked enough.

Dark Angels are fethed. Deathwing's got nothing on GK, and when's the last time you saw a competetive Ravenwing army?

I dont agree. Deathwing have access to better long range antitank shooting and stormshields for peanut cost negating all the shooting weaknesses GK will suffer from and also making for possibility of better assault units then GK.

Same goes for Loganwing armies. They might be "fun" armies but they both have strong shooting, not as good mobility but far far superior resilence vs shooting.

Overall, I still don't think GK will crack the top 3 and maybe even top 5 codices. They have some good stuff, but make a list and playtest them. They really don't get much....

I agree. The GK codex is at the bottom of the tier pile of newer codexes, codex creep just got debunked hard!

It pisses me of to no end though since pure GKs were utter pieces of crap for years and years now and when they finally got their codex they are still heavy underdogs, not being able to truly compete with the top number of codexes. Thanks ward.
The only saving grace is the sheer amount of fun and different builds this codex offers but as said, pretty much none are truly competitive unless you start to water down the army with non GK models.

Just as a small note to what the OP had originally posted, don't dismiss the GK's simply with a laugh. The GK's update looks to make them one of the most dangerous armies out there, very small and concentrated at that but nothing to laugh at. I don't want you, the OP, to be reading this and thinking I'm being snobby or anything but I'm just saying it as it is.

Please explain. I fail to see the competitiveness of the new (pure) GK.

Jaon wrote:GK definitely got hit by the nerfbat here. Its ridiculous, let me name a few.

- halberd cost increased
- falchions no longer reroll to wound
- Warding staves only work in combat
- swords dont grant 1+ inv save to models without an original inv save.
- DK is t6 str 6.
- Mordracks terminators have lost a LOT of options, have had a absolute pricehike points wise, making them almost a bad choice to take.

Halberd cost increased? Wat
But now they grant +1 attack
They only ever worked in close combat
The swords never worked like you think
The DK nerf sucks, but they were OP
The mordrak nerf hurts a lot. It made me sad.


Legitimately almost nothing you said was true. Anything else you'd like to share?

Anyone figured out a good use of mordrak?
He is useless in tournament settings as far as I can see.

Parts of the leaked codex were OP sure but why did they have to overnerf so much?

Take Mordrak for a turn one deathstar deepstrike. Other then that, he does nothing that a normal Grand Master will do better.

Mordrak can drop a librarian turn 1 to Warp Rift anything you want, potentially multiple vehicles from the right angle. Other than Mordrak+Librarian shenanigans, which is fairly eggs-in-one-basket, I see no use for him :(

I havn't had a chance to look at the new GK codex, so I apologize for the question if its basic....but does anyone know if GK can still use SM or IG troops like in the last codex? or is it all GK all the way this time for the codex? I know that in the transport and heavy support areas you can use some IG and SM ones, but just wondering about the troops. thanks for the input.

Only Grey Knights, Inquisitors, Assassins, and Inquisitional Retinues.

ph34r wrote:

Jaon wrote:GK definitely got hit by the nerfbat here. Its ridiculous, let me name a few.

- halberd cost increased
- falchions no longer reroll to wound
- Warding staves only work in combat
- swords dont grant 1+ inv save to models without an original inv save.
- DK is t6 str 6.
- Mordracks terminators have lost a LOT of options, have had a absolute pricehike points wise, making them almost a bad choice to take.

Halberd cost increased? Wat
But now they grant +1 attack
They only ever worked in close combat
The swords never worked like you think
The DK nerf sucks, but they were OP
The mordrak nerf hurts a lot. It made me sad.


Legitimately almost nothing you said was true. Anything else you'd like to share?

Now please point out a single untrue thing in my post please? I was, as many were, under the impression those things originally were in, but no where have I stated an untrue statement in my above post.

You even AGREED on the DK and mordrack, must you be purposely bitter and insult people like that? Even when you AGREE with them?

Jaon wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Jaon wrote:GK definitely got hit by the nerfbat here. Its ridiculous, let me name a few.

- halberd cost increased
- falchions no longer reroll to wound
- Warding staves only work in combat
- swords dont grant 1+ inv save to models without an original inv save.
- DK is t6 str 6.
- Mordracks terminators have lost a LOT of options, have had a absolute pricehike points wise, making them almost a bad choice to take.

Halberd cost increased? Wat
But now they grant +1 attack
They only ever worked in close combat
The swords never worked like you think
The DK nerf sucks, but they were OP
The mordrak nerf hurts a lot. It made me sad.


Legitimately almost nothing you said was true. Anything else you'd like to share?

Now please point out a single untrue thing in my post please? I was, as many were, under the impression those things originally were in, but no where have I stated an untrue statement in my above post.

You even AGREED on the DK and mordrack, must you be purposely bitter and insult people like that? Even when you AGREE with them?

Me bitter? You are raging against the world for things that never happened, so I dunno what to tell ya. You would think the fact that I agreed with you on some points might be enough to tip you off that I am not being irrational or bitter

Untrue things in your post (because they were always this way):
- halberd cost increased
- Warding staves only work in combat
- swords dont grant 1+ inv save to models without an original inv save.

Halberd cost is the same...the other things are definitely true.

Early rumours did not indicate whether the warding staves gave a 2++ outside of combat or not, and they didn't indicate whether swords gave their bonus to models without invulnerable saves in the first place either.

And that was before we had a wargear section.

ductvader wrote:Halberd cost is the same...the other things are definitely true.

Err, sorry, that must have been confusing. The statements he made were untrue because the rules he is complaining about being changed, were never anything but the rules we have now. Except the falchions, which got changed slightly.

ph34r wrote:Mordrak can drop a librarian turn 1 to Warp Rift anything you want, potentially multiple vehicles from the right angle. Other than Mordrak+Librarian shenanigans, which is fairly eggs-in-one-basket, I see no use for him :(

I see Mordrak being interesting in shunt lists like:

Mordrak, 4 knights - 360
Lib, 3 powers, 1 skull - 170

Strike Squad, PC
Strike Squad, PC

10 Interceptors, 2 PC - 280
10 Interceptors, 2 PC - 280
10 Interceptors, 2 PC - 280

Dreadknight, teleporter - 205
Dreadknight, teleporter - 205

Mordrak gives 1-3 units scout. Either the interceptors or the DKs, depending one which one you want assaulting on turn 1. Hopefully you go first, but either way shunt the scouts 13-18" from the enemy. Everything else except Mordrak deploys somewhere in cover. The strike squads either sit on objectives or wait in reserve to DS in later.

Turn one, whether you go first or not Mordrak drops in and everything that didn't scout shunts 13"-18" inches away from the enemy (so you can't be charged by regular infantry and stuff, but can still charge the next turn). Whatever scouted now jumps forward, your whole army shoots, and whatever scouted assaults the most dangerous enemy units, with the Quicksilver or Might of Titan buff as needed. Your targets should be whatever will do the most shooting damage to you next turn. Turn 2 the rest of your army charges and hopefully you win, lol.

Anyway, thats one list i've been thinking about, and the main use i see for Mordrak.

Jaon wrote:DK is t6 str 6.

And the Nemesis Doomfists are DCCWs. While they, from a strict RAW perspective, don't do anything to non-walkers, anyone playing you saying you don't get S10 attacks can go burn IMO.

Take Mordrak for a turn one deathstar deepstrike. Other then that, he does nothing that a normal Grand Master will do better.

What deathstar, the guy can only take 5 nekkid terminators ffs.
Ward nerfed the only fun HQ to uselessness...along with the other named HQs as well.
This crap codex has NO named HQs worth taking if you plan on doing anything close to a competitive build.
Well Crowe can be used but he´s pure crap and only an evil necessity in order to take the one good squad choice in the codex.

SM codex is full of useful and fun named characters as is the SW one etc but why on earth did Ward decide to make a useless named HQ section for the GK codex?

Mordrak can drop a librarian turn 1 to Warp Rift anything you want, potentially multiple vehicles from the right angle. Other than Mordrak+Librarian shenanigans, which is fairly eggs-in-one-basket, I see no use for him :(

Yeah, that´s what I thought, the one decent thing he does is far to case specific to be ever used in a tournament.

I see Mordrak being interesting in shunt lists like:

Mordrak, 4 knights - 360
Lib, 3 powers, 1 skull - 170

Strike Squad, PC
Strike Squad, PC

10 Interceptors, 2 PC - 280
10 Interceptors, 2 PC - 280
10 Interceptors, 2 PC - 280

Dreadknight, teleporter - 205
Dreadknight, teleporter - 205

Mordrak gives 1-3 units scout. Either the interceptors or the DKs, depending one which one you want assaulting on turn 1. Hopefully you go first, but either way shunt the scouts 13-18" from the enemy. Everything else except Mordrak deploys somewhere in cover. The strike squads either sit on objectives or wait in reserve to DS in later.

Turn one, whether you go first or not Mordrak drops in and everything that didn't scout shunts 13"-18" inches away from the enemy (so you can't be charged by regular infantry and stuff, but can still charge the next turn). Whatever scouted now jumps forward, your whole army shoots, and whatever scouted assaults the most dangerous enemy units, with the Quicksilver or Might of Titan buff as needed. Your targets should be whatever will do the most shooting damage to you next turn. Turn 2 the rest of your army charges and hopefully you win, lol.

Anyway, thats one list i've been thinking about, and the main use i see for Mordrak.

Nice idea but do give the libby a homing beacon as well if you plan on DSing everything.

How will this deal with dark eldar, you strike near them piecemeal, blow up a banana boat or two and then get assaulter to death by the whole army.

And the Nemesis Doomfists are DCCWs. While they, from a strict RAW perspective, don't do anything to non-walkers, anyone playing you saying you don't get S10 attacks can go burn IMO.

Only way to ever take the dreadknights is in pure melee forms, all the shooty weapons are so overpriced its sad. I mean god forbid if they actually include a powerful unit in the codex with no strings attached.


Here is a challenge:
Anyone that can come up with a reason to e v e are take psilencers wins a beer.

There is nothng, nothng that psilencers do that psycannons can do better.
Psycannons wound more or close to the same vs infantry.
Psycannons can shoot and move.
Psycannons can take out vehicles.

The one and only thing I see psilencers do better is IF you face a T7-8 deamon AND you want to stand still then you can do slightly more wounds on it then with a psycannon.

What exactly is the point of psilencers again, what did the dev team smoke up when they created a pointless weapon that nobody will ever take?
I mean I´m amazed about the amounts of stupidity in this codex, on one hand there is a feeling lots of time and effort and thinking went into some things like the whole nemesis weapon things and teleport synnergy but on the other hand there are things that look like they have been made last second during a coffe break by someone who utterly hates the GKs.
Completely overnerfed HQs, important wargear being totally useless etc etc.

Pyriel- wrote:

Take Mordrak for a turn one deathstar deepstrike. Other then that, he does nothing that a normal Grand Master will do better.

What deathstar, the guy can only take 5 nekkid terminators ffs.
Ward nerfed the only fun HQ to uselessness...along with the other named HQs as well.

I was going to say that you forgo the ghost terminators (let's face it, they suck when you're not getting them for free anyway) and put him with a normal unit, but then I saw that he lost the Independant Character rule. Yeah, he's useless.

This crap codex has NO named HQs worth taking if you plan on doing anything close to a competitive build.

Coteaz will probably allow for the most competitive build in the entire codex (hell, him and his droogs could end up dominating the entire freaking metagame). Likewise, it's not like you NEED to have great named characters when there are some very solid unnamed ones. The Grand Master is freaking awesome, and the Librarian's not too shabby either.

Well Crowe can be used but he´s pure crap and only an evil necessity in order to take the one good squad choice in the codex.

You're overreacting. It's fairly obvious that Purifiers are arguably one of the best units in the codex (Inquisitional Retinues with Coteaz will end up being more competetive, in my opinion), but they're not the only good unit. The codex has plenty of great units.

SM codex is full of useful and fun named characters as is the SW one etc but why on earth did Ward decide to make a useless named HQ section for the GK codex?

The SM codex is full of useful and fun named characters because it ended up getting rid of the much more flavourful and fun chapter traits system from fourth edition. Forcing players to take certain special characters to represent their chapters was a step back from what the previous codex offered. I'd say that unnamed characters like the Grand Master are a step in the right direction.

I agree Fafnir that Purifiers are super good. Crowe as an HQ in 500, 1000, even 1500 I could see as being viable. But in 1850 or 2000 point games, where you need two HQ, and you almost certainly want one of them to be some sort of Grandmaster, I don't know if Crowe really makes the cut.

I think paladin troops might be able to compete with purifier troops. The main question is, who is more useless: Crowe who can't join units and sucks a fair amount in close combat, or "I must break you" Draigo who costs more than a land raider and is only useful in close combat.

By their own merits? Draigo by miles. He gets Grand Strategy, can join units, is a much more well rounded combatant (better saves, storm bolter, S5, it's all good), and Eternal Warrior lets him tank some really scary stuff for units of Paladins (lascannons making your Paladins cower with fear and despair? Never fear! Draigo's hear!), which gives him a fair bit of synergy with his unit of choice. You could argue that he's overcosted, but he's still fairly good.

Crowe unlocks purifiers, but doesn't offer anything of value aside from that. He doesn't synergize with anything (other than Karamazov, but that's only because Karamazov is awesome in ways that Karamazov can be awesome) because he cant join units and offers nothing to support his allies.
The most you can use him for is as something to bait enemies with and then pound away with a combined assault afterwords, but most decent opponents should be able to see that coming from a mile away anyway. That's really all he has going for himself. It might be useful once or twice, but after that, your opponents will catch on and learn to leave him alone. Or... y'know, just fire a lascannon or three at him and watch him explode from the other side of the table.