Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

i have no problem with Female IG or female anything else, with the exception of Female Space Marines.-

the issue i have with Female Marines is that it goes COMPLETELY against the established fluff i have come to love(which has all other organizations having female fighters, except orks for obvious reasons)


if they changed such a foundational fluff bit it would basically change the game's background copmpletely, and for what? just so the game doesn't appear sexist?

I would have a problem with male sisters(brothers?) of battle because the fluff is that the Ecclesiarchy was forbidden from maintaining Men at Arms. the Ecclesiarchy cleverly got around this by having an all female force.



GW has written some very nice fluff. if they alter it because of a percieved gender bias then it's clear that the game has lost integrity. the integrity of staying true to the core of the established fluff.

the Fluff is fine at it's very base and doesn't need an overhaul of this magnitude.

Just thought I'd point out that, besides from the fact that GW is BS-ing us with fake science, I really doubt that a woman in power armor would look different. It's a giant suit of armor; it's not form fitting for the men in the suits (I don't think genetic enhancements create giant shoulders), so why would it be for a woman in it? (answer: GW panders to immature perverts).
It wouldn't be that hard to make fem marine models; you'd just need one or two un-helmeted heads, and then rewrite one paragraph at most of the current fluff. Big whoop.

Is that little piece of trivia really that important? With all the things that GW has retconned and rewrote, does it really matter if the person behind the helmet has 2 X chromosomes?

Grey Templar wrote:iGW has written some very nice fluff. if they alter it because of a percieved gender bias then it's clear that the game has lost integrity. the integrity of staying true to the core of the established fluff.

the Fluff is fine at it's very base and doesn't need an overhaul of this magnitude.

Well, I respect your opinion, but I disagree with you. I think they've shown their wllingness to tinker with core concepts from the first book would preclude a ironbound fluff based argument, but that's, just, like my opinion, man. Deep striking land raiders, orange apes, space vampires, entire factions added and removed...

to be fair, the orange apes have been around since the beginning and a Thunderhawk Transporter hot dropping a LR isn't beyond belife(we paradrop tanks nowdays)

But still, there is no "holy book" enshrined at GW's headquarters that says "This is the fluff, and it shall not be changed. Let this be the stone foundation of many a great story".

GW frequently rewrites and adds or subtracts ridiculous things at their whims. There is no sacred text, no enshrined Rouge Trader book that cannot be changed.

Grey Templar wrote:i have no problem with Female IG or female anything else, with the exception of Female Space Marines.-

the issue i have with Female Marines is that it goes COMPLETELY against the established fluff i have come to love(which has all other organizations having female fighters, except orks for obvious reasons)


if they changed such a foundational fluff bit it would basically change the game's background copmpletely, and for what? just so the game doesn't appear sexist?

I would have a problem with male sisters(brothers?) of battle because the fluff is that the Ecclesiarchy was forbidden from maintaining Men at Arms. the Ecclesiarchy cleverly got around this by having an all female force.



GW has written some very nice fluff. if they alter it because of a percieved gender bias then it's clear that the game has lost integrity. the integrity of staying true to the core of the established fluff.

the Fluff is fine at it's very base and doesn't need an overhaul of this magnitude.

Um, Grey Templar, in what way has GW stayed true to established fluff? Are Space Marines still criminals serving a life sentence to serve a living Emperor with Imperial Gaurdsmen serving aside their beastmen colleges? What ever happened to all those funny short abhumans with beards that built the Imperium's Titans and other extremely large vehicles such as the Leviathan command vehicle?

Has anyone seen a Zoat lately?

I hate to say it, but GW totally tosses out their fluff every time they write a new codex. Look at Blood Angels. Or Grey Knights. Or even IG with it's vanishing and reappearing vehicles. "Vanquishers don't exist!' 'No, wait, they do!' 'No, wait, they don't!' 'No, wait, yes they do again because we want to make a plastic kit!'

Or how about that IG hovertank or the hoverbike commissar?


Never mind that the geneseed is a biological impossibility that could only function if it was powered by the warp. How does it grow just fine in admech tankgrown slaves regardless of gender, but not in space marine candidates regardless of gender?

Grey Templar wrote:to be fair, the orange apes have been around since the beginning

So has the imperium recruiting females.

From Rogue Trader:

I never said the imperium ever had a point where the army was exclusivly male.



it is true that GW hasn't always had the same fluff. there was a reason for that, the fluff was kinda awful in parts and abit Cliche.


GW moved away from the "Fantesy in space" feeling because it was the right thing to do.

hence they axed the Squats and had the Zoats become extinct.


the result is a Sci-fi that is unique and has a very deep and engaging fluff.

The guard recruit females all the time in the fluff, they just don't have models often. Part of this being due to the guard plastics being old and limited in options, we might see a mixed regiment when there is a new plastic regiment in a few years.

Which i think would be an amazing thing to see.

Grey Templar wrote:it is true that GW hasn't always had the same fluff. there was a reason for that, the fluff was kinda awful in parts and abit Cliche.

So you don't have a problem with the fluff evolving over time? You also consider it to be malleable with evolving social tastes and norms?

You see where this is going, right?

I think fluff should change if it's horrible to begin with.

not because it's trying to be politically correct.



besides, SM usually recruit from Feral worlds which 95% of the time will not have females be the warrior class. it would be kinda odd to have SM show up and take a daughter to be a warrior from a society that doesn't do that sort of thing.

yeah, they could retcon that too, but again it's more changes to a perfectly good system.



fortunantly i see no evidence of GW changing the fluff to allow for Female marines any time soon.


just because it happens on 4chan doesn't mean its a good idea.


I didn't vote in the above poll because my position wasn't accounted for.

Grey Templar wrote:hence they axed the Squats and had the Zoats become extinct.

The Zoats became Hive Fleet Colossus.

Colossus consisted of several large nomadic fleets that displayed many similarities to other Tyranid Hive Fleets. Their vessels were conch-like crafts apparently grown from stone. The centauroid creatures of Colossus were able to make use of Tyranid weapon-symbiotes, although it appeared to be a painful process for them to equip themselves with the bio-weapons. The creatures of Colossus had the ability to communicate telepathically and were known to communicate with other races. The creatures claimed they were slaves escaping from an unnamed oppressor.1, 2

The centaur-like description of the creatures of Colossus and the claim they were slaves has lead many fans to speculate the creatures of Colossus are actually Zoats, a species of centaur slaves to the Tyranids introduced in Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader, although this has never been officially stated.

While the Hive Fleet was 'destroyed', it's not like there could never be more.

No - The chances of it being handled with anything remotely resembling tact, good taste or even basic respect is less than great.

Gimme some boobies! Hell ya, well should really get some more female models. The weird thing is so far, all of the ones they've made are ugly, so I think its about time we got some hot chicks in there.

TheMuffinMan98 wrote:Gimme some boobies! Hell ya, well should really get some more female models. The weird thing is so far, all of the ones they've made are ugly, so I think its about time we got some hot chicks in there.

Lelith is a really nice model. Body shape of a more athletic woman, not with huge boobs poking out the front, but it's a really good female miniature.

I have to say no, after the discussion in another thread about the difficulty of making quality female models that have to share arms and legs with male models.

I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

As previously stated, for those of you who are concerned about the juvenile anti-female approach to space marines by GW, power armor would not need to be retrofited for female superwarriors (who would look like the juiced up body builder women of the real world). A few simple headswaps will grant you female marines.

But for those of us who enjoy the current fluff, it doesn't make a lit of sense. And our opinoins about that are not mysogynous or juvenile, we just like the background of a brotherhood of super warriors who take on traits of their primarch.

yeah, let us keep our Fraternities made up of buds n bros.



and lets face it, even IF GW made more female models it wouldn't bring more people in(specifically the female audience)


If a little 12 year old girl would play 40k at all she probably would have started up anyway. more female models or not. and there are SoB if an all girl army is needed.


heck, having more female models, especially PA ones, might actually drive people away due to the whole female fantesy warrior archtype. this could alse be the reason GW is moving away from it's existing female models being halfnaked(Wytches are wearing about 33% more then they used to and Deamonettes are no longer topless) although it remains to be seen if SoB go away from the metal Corset look and have a more practicle armor design.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

I agree that one major problem with adding female space marines would be that the Sisters would essentially have no more reason to exist in their current form. Not exactly what I am aiming for. I'd be happy with integrated Guard, or even...

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote: A few simple headswaps will grant you female marines.

An add-on pack of female heads and maybe arms would make me happy, yes, just as they sell jump packs and other conversion bits.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:But for those of us who enjoy the current fluff, it doesn't make a lit of sense. And our opinoins about that are not mysogynous or juvenile, we just like the background of a brotherhood of super warriors who take on traits of their primarch.

Sure, fair enough - but, about the Primarchs... two of whom are unknown, and could conceivably be female, yes? What about, instead of female space marines intermingled, per se, there were a chapter of solely female space marines?

it's unlikely that the 2 missing primarchs are female.


the basic desire to have symmetry would have mandated the Emperor creating 1/2 and 1/2 which he didn't.

besides, the Emperor basically cloned himself to make the Primarchs.


if 2 were female that would result in them having 2 identicle X chromosomes without significant alteration(not a problem with all the scientific alteration going on, but still an issue)

its simpler just to keep the primarchs male. one less step in the creation process as you don't have to off the bat fix certain problems.

You do realise that when you clone something it starts off female, right?

What?

Not as i understand it


cloning takes the genetic material of a unfertilized Egg cell(which is neither male nor female as it only has a single X) and replaces it with the complete genetic material of the doner(both Chromosomes)


the original genetic material never is a complete organisim. it's just a bag of biomatter.

add in the 2nd chromosome and it becomes a new life.

On the subject of female ork's. When they existed they had nothing more than a basic animal inteligence and wre in general kept at home just to push out sproggs. You can kind of see why they rewrote the fluff on Orks, so they could avoid accusations of Misogyny when they stated aiming the games more for kids.

The same happened to the Fimir in WHFB who were totally removed from the fact that they used to reproduce via kidknapping and rapeing women, which isn't really child friendly .

On fem-Marines I have nothing against people converting their own. I do find some do get really anal about fluff, but it is just a hobby and if a player wants to edit the existing fluff for their view of the 40K universe. Unless there is vast majority of people who want to have fem-maines then GW as a whole should keep it how it is. Im toally againt 'thought' police coming around looking at the range of models and saying 'theres not enough woman in those armies, make some so we don't offend some one' there has been too much of this thing over the last few years in other areas.

'What?

Not as i understand it '

Should have been more specific. Need more Caffiene

Parthenogenesis will always result in a female.


Other cloning: depends on the method/science involved. Direct copying your dna to grow a minime might wind up with you getting an exact copy, but it might not if your process is imperfect, or there are recessive/defective genes in your makeup that could trigger under certain cirumstances.

You'd also have to be very certain that you removed all trace of the previous DNA to prevent unexpected combinations.

I'm all for female options for Guard and Tau and Eldar and that stuff, but I find bewb marines ridiculous and GW shouldn't have to go out of their way for a niche market.

Obsidian wrote:On the subject of female ork's. When they existed they had nothing more than a basic animal inteligence and wre in general kept at home just to push out sproggs. You can kind of see why they rewrote the fluff on Orks, so they could avoid accusations of Misogyny when they stated aiming the games more for kids.

The same happened to the Fimir in WHFB who were totally removed from the fact that they used to reproduce via kidknapping and rapeing women, which isn't really child friendly .

I think you are referring to fantasy orcs, AFAIK there were never female orks in 40K not even in RT days, it was always the spore thingy.

Several people have mentioned that they are systematically family-friendlyfying the fluff. GW is a business in a rather niche market whose main customer base acquire their disposable income from thier parents. In this age of political correctness and obsessive public prudishness (Heck, over in the UK we have even edited/stopped teaching some nursery rhymes in case we offend one minority or another, and it's taboo to breast-feed an infant in public) having fluff that openly admits a species reproduces via rape and multi-breasted. pierced-nippled sex-daemon miniatures is going to affect the sales somewhat. Imagine the scene:

'Hey Timmy, what you got there?'
'Hi mum, this is a fimir, it kidnaps women and rapes them to continue the species!'
concerned mum: *note to self, never allow child in GW store again...*

I think the main issue here is that female parts for the sensible kits would be an easy addition, but that does mean that GW has to bring out a new kit. As for conversion parts (think meltagun pack), then you are basically catering to a niche in a niche market. So another reason it hasn't been done is probably a purely business decision.


On the subject of SoB, if we change the iron corset thing they've got going on, then we have to do a lot of re-tooling of very well established imagery, and to be fair the imagery is pretty good at the moment, so lets not try to fix something thats not broken

On the subject of female marines. I've always thought the base concept of marines was that of a fraternity of warrior-monks, yes we could re-write the fluff and put females in there, but it would lose a lot of the base concept in the process, perhaps detracting from what makes space marines unique, and not just another generic sci-fi genetically modified super-solider.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I still have not heard why any of the female marine advocates are not complaining about no male models in the sisters of battle. Gender Inequality!!!! (that is 50% of the population being ignored)

I like that the sisters of battle are all female. But if we are so worried about gender inequality, why don't we push for men in the sisters of battle?

We're not interested in that. Why should we talk about it?

Anyway, I've got my "Monks Of Mayhem" army to keep me going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:it's unlikely that the 2 missing primarchs are female.


the basic desire to have symmetry would have mandated the Emperor creating 1/2 and 1/2 which he didn't.

besides, the Emperor basically cloned himself to make the Primarchs.


if 2 were female that would result in them having 2 identicle X chromosomes without significant alteration(not a problem with all the scientific alteration going on, but still an issue)

its simpler just to keep the primarchs male. one less step in the creation process as you don't have to off the bat fix certain problems.

How do you know the Emporer wasn't XXY?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requia wrote:I have to say no, after the discussion in another thread about the difficulty of making quality female models that have to share arms and legs with male models.

That would be easily solved by making quality female models that didn't have to share arms and legs with male models.

If GW are going to make a new sprue they can just stick female arms and legs on it.

Kilkrazy wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:it's unlikely that the 2 missing primarchs are female.


the basic desire to have symmetry would have mandated the Emperor creating 1/2 and 1/2 which he didn't.

besides, the Emperor basically cloned himself to make the Primarchs.


if 2 were female that would result in them having 2 identicle X chromosomes without significant alteration(not a problem with all the scientific alteration going on, but still an issue)

its simpler just to keep the primarchs male. one less step in the creation process as you don't have to off the bat fix certain problems.

How do you know the Emporer wasn't XXY?

because he was born as a normal human and thats what he was physically.


after his psychic powers reemerged he waas capable of altering his appearence, but i doubt he would give himself a genetic disorder.

Female necrons,




what?