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DEUS VULT wrote:I think you guys are overthinking and overanalyzing this quite a bit. The Imperial Guard is inconsistant, as proven by the fluff being inconsistant with itself.

Actually the Imperial Guard IS consistent. It has several consistent standards that ALL Imperial Guard regiments are provided with by the Munitorum on the day of their founding and allowed to requisition enough to supply all of their men with regardless of the role of their soldiers.

That, and the extra training, is what sets the Imperial Guard apart from the PDF. Sure, not all units use this equipment (such as the noted regiments who sometimes forego using commbeads). Some of them have extra equipment or have their own from their own planets (the vostroyan firstborn having their own excellently crafted lasguns for example). Some of them have special equipment given to them for the sake of their duties (such as the cameleoline cloaks used by the Tanith and other recon regiments).

But they still all have access to that same standard level of equipment, with how they use it being up to the regiment in question.

Vaktathi wrote:The Imperial Guard is much better related to feudal armies.

Personally, I'd point to two different sources as examples for most of the IG. For the regimental organization, I'd look to the method that the British use for putting together their own military units. Their military is largely composed of a number of regiments that are frequently (though not always) identified by the place of origin. Everyone used to do this, but most (if not all) other armies have foregone this in the modern era. The British, for whatever reason, have not. Regiments are usually combined to form divisions and corps, but everyone remembers the names of the regiments.

For the style of the army, I'd point to Communist Bloc militaries, particularly during the second half of World War 2 when the Soviets were throwing everything and the kitchen sink at their German opponents. You even have commisars!

(though that's not the reason why I'm put in mind of the Soviet WW2 era military)

As for communication, let me point out that those big vox casters carried by individual Guardsmen are known to be powerful enough to call up to ships in orbit. The personal level vox communicators are of a much, much smaller scale.

And yes, I would hold that the majority of the Guard IS fairly consistent...at least in terms of equipment. We just think that the organization as a whole is a whole lot more diverse than it actually is because the stories focus on the different ones. We don't get stories of generic Guard regiment #451 from generic civilized world #1291 because that story would be relatively boring as opposed to stories about the different more interesting regiments.

Melissia wrote:

DEUS VULT wrote:I think you guys are overthinking and overanalyzing this quite a bit. The Imperial Guard is inconsistant, as proven by the fluff being inconsistant with itself.

Actually the Imperial Guard IS consistent. It has several consistent standards that ALL Imperial Guard regiments are provided with by the Munitorum on the day of their founding and allowed to requisition enough to supply all of their men with regardless of the role of their soldiers.

Yeah...except they don't. Each planet is responsible for training and equipping their tithe. Hence why the IG from at planet will be almost identical to the PDF of that planet. If there's one thing about the make-up of the guard, it's that they are anything but standard. They're as diverse as much as the million worlds of the Imperium are diverse.

I would also imagine that the Imperial Guard Codex is a more reliable source than the IMM or the Uplifting Primer (which is basically a joke). The munitorium provides provisions and ammunition to keep the regiment running, but the Planet is responsible for equiping them.

But they still all have access to that same standard level of equipment, with how they use it being up to the regiment in question.

Of course, that explains the regiments that fight with spears/cross-bows/muskets.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yeah...except they don't.

You are correct about this, if you want to completely and utterly ignore the overwhelming majority of the lore of 40k's Imperial Guard faction and instead rely on flights of fancy and flanderization.

The entire purpose of the Departmento Munitorum is to raise and supply regiments. The regiments, as noted, CAN choose to supply and use their own weapons in place of the Munitorum's weapons. But the fact remains that the Munitorum does in fact provide for the regiments otherwise. They raise regiments, supply newly raised regiments, and provide for the transport of the various regiments. And they have standard equipment for the Guard units they raise, everything a basic soldier needs for war. In fact, this is the very reason that the lasgun is the most commonly used Imperial weapon-- it vastly simplifies the supply chain for the Departmento Munitorum.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

DEUS VULT wrote:I think you guys are overthinking and overanalyzing this quite a bit. The Imperial Guard is inconsistant, as proven by the fluff being inconsistant with itself.

Actually the Imperial Guard IS consistent. It has several consistent standards that ALL Imperial Guard regiments are provided with by the Munitorum on the day of their founding and allowed to requisition enough to supply all of their men with regardless of the role of their soldiers.

Yeah...except they don't. Each planet is responsible for training and equipping their tithe. Hence why the IG from at planet will be almost identical to the PDF of that planet. If there's one thing about the make-up of the guard, it's that they are anything but standard. They're as diverse as much as the million worlds of the Imperium are diverse.

I would also imagine that the Imperial Guard Codex is a more reliable source than the IMM or the Uplifting Primer (which is basically a joke). The munitorium provides provisions and ammunition to keep the regiment running, but the Planet is responsible for equiping them.

But they still all have access to that same standard level of equipment, with how they use it being up to the regiment in question.

Of course, that explains the regiments that fight with spears/cross-bows/muskets.

So if the munitorium provides ammunition, you're telling me that they provide arrows, crossbow bolts, musket balls, and black powder?

o.O

EVERYBODY gets a lasgun. It's specifically designed so that even the biggest technophobic idiot can figure out how to use it.

1.) Point barrel at enemy.
2.) Pull trigger.
3.) When light stops coming out of the end after trigger pulls, remove the power pack and leave it out in the sun for a few hours.
4.) Attach a spare power pack.
5.) Repeat

I would have to say regiments like the Elysian are closer to what Rangers would be. Rangers are commonly airborne units and will either drop in or air assault out of helos and have far more specific and specialized missions than just "Dude sit in that hole and watch this line" (although it can happen). Stormtroopers would also be closer to what rangers would be. Normal guardsmen are like US Army's 11B (infantrymen). Special Forces (what most people call green berrets) don't really exist in standard regiments. People like Marbo are about as close to SF as you're going to get. Irregulars just don't have a good fit in table top.

I'd like to imagine SF type troops in a 40k game. It'd go something like this.

(Side A = full army, side B = irregulars)

Side A deploys units. "Ok ready to go"
Side B stands there. "Cool, I'm deployed"
Side A: "Where?"
Side B: "Right there" *points to random spot*
Side A: "I don't see it. Well I guess we can start"
Side B: "Cool, you can go first."
Side A: "Uh... I guess I'll move. This looks a like like you holding in reserves, did you do that?"
Side B: "Well... kinda, you'll see."
Side A: "K I guess I'm done now."
Side B: "Awesome, me too."
Side A: "Wow that was fast. Ok I'm gunna move my... wait why can't my tanks move? And where's my HQ?"
Side B: *smirk*
Side A: "Crap my whole line is crippled! What did you do?"
Side B: "Stuff"
Side A: "Wow, that's a lot of dudes. What is that?"
Side B: "Oh that? That's just the indigenous people I trained to be soldiers while you weren't looking. They're taking their sector back. I can leave now. Cya!"
Side A: "Hey I can see your guys now. Wait you did all that with 4 models?"

Sothas: Weirdly enough, what you described is what the Ecclesiarchy does, not the Imperial Guard.

In specific, the Missionaria Galaxia.

IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Quite frankly, that's just marinewank there.

The Imperial Guard wins more battles in a decade than the Astartes have ever won in ten thousand years of service since the Horus Heresy, simply because of the fact that the Imperial Guard is everywhere in the Imperium.

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Imperial Guard in general are trained solders with good lidership and good equipment and balls of steel. Their job is to hold the line and conquer worlds in the Emperor's name. You want proof? Just see at Nimbosa how long 1 Regiment hold out and entire Tau strike force, or at Armageddon how brave Stell Legion is.
Guard should be respected and you should be afraid of her...

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yeah...except they don't.

You are correct about this, if you want to completely and utterly ignore the overwhelming majority of the lore of 40k's Imperial Guard faction and instead rely on flights of fancy and flanderization.

Okay, you're right, or you would be if your argument involved anything more than dismissing out of hand solid canon evidence and substituting it with dubious fluff of your own. Find a reliable source that shows that the Imperial Guard IS universally standardised, and give me a good reason why it should trump over the IG Codex.

The entire purpose of the Departmento Munitorum is to raise and supply regiments. The regiments, as noted, CAN choose to supply and use their own weapons in place of the Munitorum's weapons. But the fact remains that the Munitorum does in fact provide for the regiments otherwise.

Yeah, the munitorium provides for the regiment. In things like:
-Food
-Ammuntion
-Transport
-That's about it.

They don't dish out commbeads or flak armour. They sometimes don't even provide lasguns to those regiments that don't come equipped with them.

They raise regiments, supply newly raised regiments, and provide for the transport of the various regiments. And they have standard equipment for the Guard units they raise, everything a basic soldier needs for war. In fact, this is the very reason that the lasgun is the most commonly used Imperial weapon-- it vastly simplifies the supply chain for the Departmento Munitorum.

This is all done by the planet. It's specifically mentioned that the only piece of equipment that can be considered standard is the lasgun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eumerin wrote:
So if the munitorium provides ammunition, you're telling me that they provide arrows, crossbow bolts, musket balls, and black powder?

o.O

No, these regiments either clue in to how useful a lasgun is really quickly, or they make do without (and ussually die).

EDIT: Given the nature of the Munitorium, I wouldn't be surprised to see primitive regiments recieving several shipments of ammuntion for lasguns, even if don't even have the weapons to use the ammunition.

And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

If you had read my earlier posts you'll see I've been referencing the current IG codex, silly.

Brother Coa wrote:

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Imperial Guard in general are trained solders with good lidership and good equipment and balls of steel. Their job is to hold the line and conquer worlds in the Emperor's name. You want proof? Just see at Nimbosa how long 1 Regiment hold out and entire Tau strike force, or at Armageddon how brave Stell Legion is.
Guard should be respected and you should be afraid of her...

You really should know better. The IG was slaughtered on Nibrosa. Twice. It was the BT who finally took out the tau.

The IG is not an army of supper solders. (That's the SM's job) It's a good thing. The guard is a lot more cool when they use human wave tactics and old style trench warfare. If you try to paint them as the bad mothers of the IoM who take out armies over twice their size, they just turn into lame copies of the tau, or the SMs with out anything that makes SMs cool.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yeah...except they don't.

You are correct about this, if you want to completely and utterly ignore the overwhelming majority of the lore of 40k's Imperial Guard faction and instead rely on flights of fancy and flanderization.

Okay, you're right, or you would be if your argument involved anything more than dismissing out of hand solid canon evidence and substituting it with dubious fluff of your own. Find a reliable source that shows that the Imperial Guard IS universally standardised, and give me a good reason why it should trump over the IG Codex.

What else can I say about nonsensical uncited arguments which completely contradict every level of fluff that exists? It's like if someone tried to argue Space Marines don't use boltguns as standard weapons, but instead use gauss flayers and scatter lasers.

You're wrong. Your arguments are wrong, your arguments make no sense, your arguments contradict the IG codex, your arguments contradict the Ciaphas Cain series, your arguments contradict the Gaunt's Ghosts series, your arguments contradict the information in Dark Heresy and its suppplements, your arguments contradict the IIUP, your argument contradicts the IMM. You're really just making things up.

Melissia wrote:What else can I say about nonsensical uncited arguments which completely contradict every level of fluff that exists? It's like if someone tried to argue Space Marines don't use boltguns as standard weapons, but instead use gauss flayers and scatter lasers.

Wow, love you too.

You're wrong. Your arguments are wrong, your arguments make no sense, your arguments contradict the IG codex,

My arguments come directly from the IG Codex. If you want I can include more quotes from it.

your arguments contradict the Ciaphas Cain series,

Cain had a derisive opinion of the PDF, that's true, and he also admitted he was an unreliable source. He doesn't claim that the Valhallan's received their technology or equipment from the Munitorium when they were founded.

your arguments contradict the Gaunt's Ghosts series,

TheTanith First and Only were not equipped by the Munitorium when they were founded, but by the planet Tanith.

your arguments contradict the information in Dark Heresy and its suppplements,

Can't recall the passage that says all IG equipment is standardised from there either.

your arguments contradict the IIUP,

The Uplifting Primer is a joke. Are you going to start using it in threads about the Tau and their ineffective weaponry?
If anything, contradicting the IIUP gives water to my argument.

your argument contradicts the IMM.

The only source you've mentioned that I haven't read. Now can you tell me why it overrules the IG codex?

You're really just making things up.

Come on now, we can do this reasonably.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:A

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

Hang on, is the Munitorum on each Imperial Planet? Is it they who found new regiments?

How do they manage to standardise equipment then?

Emperors Faithful wrote:My arguments come directly from the IG Codex. If you want I can include more quotes from it.

No they don't. Your arguments come from an intentionally skewed interpretation of it.

Cain had a derisive opinion of the PDF, that's true, and he also admitted he was an unreliable source. He doesn't claim that the Valhallan's received their technology or equipment from the Munitorium when they were founded.

Except that he does, whenever he talks about the standard equipment that all Guard regiments are supposed to have, something which he would indeed know about because he's an Imperial commissar, trained in the Schola Progenium, by far the most prestigious school in the Imperium.

You know, because you're wrong and all.

TheTanith First and Only were not equipped by the Munitorium when they were founded, but by the planet Tanith.

Which is why it was mentioned that Larkin was specifically issued his sniper rifle from the munitorum because of his excellent aim, amongst other references, right?

Oh wait. No. You're wrong. It was, as with all Guard regiments, the local Munitorum department which had hte regiment supplied. And, if you paid attention to the novels, you'd notice that they used most of the various tools I listed previously in this thread as standard equipment, and other regiments when referenced had similar equipment.

Can't recall the passage that says all IG equipment is standardised from there either.

You mean aside from the fact that there's a standard list of infantry equipment in the Inquisitor's Handbook? And of course, that items like the Sunfury Plasma Gun is issued to Imperial Guard units facing heavily armored foes, and items like the Mars Pattern Laspistol being presented to officers when they obtain company command, or that the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun (the long one being the sniper rifle) is specifically stated to be "standard issue"?

The Departmento Munitorum deals with a bewildering variety of fighting styles and cultures, but it still supplies a standard set of equipment. The regiment can choose to utilize equipment from their homeworld instead, and many do-- such as preferring different styles of flak armor, or preferring to use a weapon other than the standard lasgun. The Munitorum has a set of regulation armor and weapons, but they are closer to loose guidelines provided that the regiment can still be effective using other armor and weapon styles.

The Uplifting Primer is a joke.

Only when dealing with xenos, because it is not proper for the average citizen to know anything about them. When talking about equipment, rules, and regulations it is very specific and serious, as it should be-- it needs to be in order to make sure the guardsmen that read it understand their duties and how to maintain their equipment.

The only source you've mentioned that I haven't read. Now can you tell me why it overrules the IG codex?

It doesn't, it only supplements it. The fact that your argument relies on a skewed interpretation of C:IG doesn't mean it contradicts C:IG.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Hang on, is the Munitorum on each Imperial Planet? Is it they who found new regiments?

How do they manage to standardise equipment then?

1: Yes
2: Yes
3: Because the Imperium produces massive amounts of standard equipment-- such as the aformentioned Mars Pattern Short Lasgun. In fact, being given the right to produce Mars Pattern Short Lasguns is quite an honor, and a blessing to one's profits because they KNOW that the munitorum will buy up a certain amount of them. The lasgun itself as well as Flak armor are both impressively easy to make, most worlds are capable of producing a few thousand sets of each for a new regiment with relative ease even if they are not a forge or hive wold.

nomotog wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Imperial Guard in general are trained solders with good lidership and good equipment and balls of steel. Their job is to hold the line and conquer worlds in the Emperor's name. You want proof? Just see at Nimbosa how long 1 Regiment hold out and entire Tau strike force, or at Armageddon how brave Stell Legion is.
Guard should be respected and you should be afraid of her...

You really should know better. The IG was slaughtered on Nibrosa. Twice. It was the BT who finally took out the tau.

The IG is not an army of supper solders. (That's the SM's job) It's a good thing. The guard is a lot more intruding when they use human wave tactics and old style trench warfare. If you try to paint them as the bad mothers of the IoM who take out armies over twice their size, they just turn into lame copies of the tau, or the SMs with out anything that makes SMs cool.

Except for the whole thing where a few tens of thousands are considered sufficient forces to take entire worlds, with the millions of entrenched defenders that go along with that. They're comprised entirely of the most skilled and physically capable troops recruited by their worlds PDF, after receiving as much training as modern US soldiers receive, and are then given a further half year of training, and then train constantly for the months it takes for them to actually get anywhere. Against Orks they're outnumbered dozens or hundreds to one, and against Tyranids they're outnumbered by the thousands, and yet prevail against both more often than not, despite being physically weaker than both.

Space Marines only show up for one in a hundred fights, and never in great enough numbers to actually do anything; Space Marines are canonically worth twelve Guardsmen each, leaving the strength of an entire company at drastically less than an infantry regiment, and even an entire chapter comes out to only two to four times that of a regiment by both codex and Black Library standards (the codex puts the normal upper limit of a regiment at around 6000, going off the 3-20 companies, each 3-6 platoons, each 2-5 ten man squads, and Black Library books generally put it around 3000 or so). Whenever Space Marines are described as victorious, one should read it as "happened to be present as the Guard carried the day, and took credit for it" and in the case of one Marneus Calgar "happened to be present and doing everything in his power to sabotage the Guard, but they triumphed nonetheless, which he then took credit for".

Hell, Space Marines only show up for one in a million fights, if that...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Imperial Guard in general are trained solders with good lidership and good equipment and balls of steel. Their job is to hold the line and conquer worlds in the Emperor's name. You want proof? Just see at Nimbosa how long 1 Regiment hold out and entire Tau strike force, or at Armageddon how brave Stell Legion is.
Guard should be respected and you should be afraid of her...

You really should know better. The IG was slaughtered on Nibrosa. Twice. It was the BT who finally took out the tau.

The IG is not an army of supper solders. (That's the SM's job) It's a good thing. The guard is a lot more intruding when they use human wave tactics and old style trench warfare. If you try to paint them as the bad mothers of the IoM who take out armies over twice their size, they just turn into lame copies of the tau, or the SMs with out anything that makes SMs cool.

Except for the whole thing where a few tens of thousands are considered sufficient forces to take entire worlds, with the millions of entrenched defenders that go along with that. They're comprised entirely of the most skilled and physically capable troops recruited by their worlds PDF, after receiving as much training as modern US soldiers receive, and are then given a further half year of training, and then train constantly for the months it takes for them to actually get anywhere. Against Orks they're outnumbered dozens or hundreds to one, and against Tyranids they're outnumbered by the thousands, and yet prevail against both more often than not, despite being physically weaker than both.

Space Marines only show up for one in a hundred fights, and never in great enough numbers to actually do anything; Space Marines are canonically worth twelve Guardsmen each, leaving the strength of an entire company at drastically less than an infantry regiment, and even an entire chapter comes out to only two to four times that of a regiment by both codex and Black Library standards (the codex puts the normal upper limit of a regiment at around 6000, going off the 3-20 companies, each 3-6 platoons, each 2-5 ten man squads, and Black Library books generally put it around 3000 or so). Whenever Space Marines are described as victorious, one should read it as "happened to be present as the Guard carried the day, and took credit for it" and in the case of one Marneus Calgar "happened to be present and doing everything in his power to sabotage the Guard, but they triumphed nonetheless, which he then took credit for".

I wasn't really arguing cannon. I corrected him about nimbrosa because he got that wrong, but the rest of it was just me describing in what form I like the guard the most. The way warhammer cannon works is varied. I am sure someone can find tons of examples of the guard beating up on people they honestly have no right beating, and you can find examples of the guard losing to a baby and a rattle. It's the way cannon works. I just like the guard better when they are half incompetent force that builds walls out of their dead. You can say that that aspect is overly flanderized, but I like that.

Side note, Is a SM really only worth 12 guard? That is awful. For the price of one SM you could get way more then 12 guard.

Perhaps, but then, you'd find it hard to drop pod 120 guardsmen into the middle of an enemy position and expect them to rapidly eliminate every threat. Marines have their uses, and they're damned good at those.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:My arguments come directly from the IG Codex. If you want I can include more quotes from it.

No they don't. Your arguments come from an intentionally skewed interpretation of it.

Cain had a derisive opinion of the PDF, that's true, and he also admitted he was an unreliable source. He doesn't claim that the Valhallan's received their technology or equipment from the Munitorium when they were founded.

Except that he does, whenever he talks about the standard equipment that all Guard regiments are supposed to have, something which he would indeed know about because he's an Imperial commissar, trained in the Schola Progenium, by far the most prestigious school in the Imperium.

You know, because you're wrong and all.

TheTanith First and Only were not equipped by the Munitorium when they were founded, but by the planet Tanith.

Which is why it was mentioned that Larkin was specifically issued his sniper rifle from the munitorum because of his excellent aim, amongst other references, right?

Oh wait. No. You're wrong. It was, as with all Guard regiments, the local Munitorum department which had hte regiment supplied. And, if you paid attention to the novels, you'd notice that they used most of the various tools I listed previously in this thread as standard equipment, and other regiments when referenced had similar equipment.

The Armour of Contempt (or was it the book after?) showed an IG regiment that didn't have any issued commbeads.

Can't recall the passage that says all IG equipment is standardised from there either.

You mean aside from the fact that there's a standard list of infantry equipment in the Inquisitor's Handbook? And of course, that items like the Sunfury Plasma Gun is issued to Imperial Guard units facing heavily armored foes, and items like the Mars Pattern Laspistol being presented to officers when they obtain company command, or that the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun (the long one being the sniper rifle) is specifically stated to be "standard issue"?

The Departmento Munitorum deals with a bewildering variety of fighting styles and cultures, but it still supplies a standard set of equipment. The regiment can choose to utilize equipment from their homeworld instead, and many do-- such as preferring different styles of flak armor, or preferring to use a weapon other than the standard lasgun. The Munitorum has a set of regulation armor and weapons, but they are closer to loose guidelines provided that the regiment can still be effective using other armor and weapon styles.

The Uplifting Primer is a joke.

Only when dealing with xenos, because it is not proper for the average citizen to know anything about them. When talking about equipment, rules, and regulations it is very specific and serious, as it should be-- it needs to be in order to make sure the guardsmen that read it understand their duties and how to maintain their equipment.

The only source you've mentioned that I haven't read. Now can you tell me why it overrules the IG codex?

It doesn't, it only supplements it. The fact that your argument relies on a skewed interpretation of C:IG doesn't mean it contradicts C:IG.

IG Codex Pg 7, last paragraph wrote:
When raising an army groupthe Departmento Munitorium is responsible for munitions, supplies, recruitment, training, medical and technical support. The methods by which forces accumulate are haphazard at best, many thousands of troops from doezens of regiments across several worlds are raised and directed to the appropriate war zone.

It takes a fairly skewed reading of that to argue that all equipment is provided to a regiment when it is founded. Especially when you look at this extract on the following page.

IG Codex Pg 8, last paragraph wrote:
Upon their raising, each regiment is equipped in the manner of their home world. The newly inducted Imperial Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniforms and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment is the lasgun. This weapon is cheap and easy to manufacture, extremely reliable and simple to maintain.

1: Yes

Okay, so don't they use what equipment is available on that planet when a regiment is founded?

2: Yes

IG codex states that it is the responsibility of the planetary governor to found the regiments. The Munitorum oversees this.

3: Because the Imperium produces massive amounts of standard equipment-- such as the aformentioned Mars Pattern Short Lasgun. In fact, being given the right to produce Mars Pattern Short Lasguns is quite an honor, and a blessing to one's profits because they KNOW that the munitorum will buy up a certain amount of them. The lasgun itself as well as Flak armor are both impressively easy to make, most worlds are capable of producing a few thousand sets of each for a new regiment with relative ease even if they are not a forge or hive wold.

Well yeah, flak armour and lasguns are so common because they are so easy to make. Things like comm-beads for each individual soldier aren't standard to every planet. Whether or not a regiment is equipped with them would depend largely on whether they were available on that planet.

Ah, there it is, found it. Near the beginning of the fourth book of Gaunt's Ghosts:

Most of that weight came from the modular webbing pouches filled with ammo, lamp packs, sheathed blades, waterproof microbead sets, coiled climbing rope, rolls of surgical tape, ferro-plastic binders, Founding-issue Imperial texts, door-spikes, flashbombs, and all the rest of the standard issue Imperial Guard kit.

40k's fluff in general is often quite vague, but here Dan Abnett directly states that there is a wide variety of equipment considered standard for Imperial Guardsmen. This supports what the rest of my sources state.

Melissia wrote:Perhaps, but then, you'd find it hard to drop pod 120 guardsmen into the middle of an enemy position and expect them to rapidly eliminate every threat. Marines have their uses, and they're damned good at those.

You got me there.

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

The Navy provides the transportation. Thats been canon since 2nd Ed to avoid another Heresy. The Ministorum requisitions the transport and coordinates.

EDIT: Mind you we're dealing with multiple dex fluff and BL nonsense. To make some sense out of it, one could posit:
-the Ministorum draws the levies.
-The levies are made up of locals and equipment. Often this is pretty standardizes but not always.
-The M then feeds and provides the logistical tail.
-If technology for the regiument is near a standard level the M supplies them with standard level equipment sourced from a variety of locations, hence some variance.
-If regiment technology is specialized the M may source as best as possible similar equipment, especially if those formations are highly prized.
-If regiment technology is less specialized or less high tech, the M will be much less likely to supply those armaments. The Baronian rock throwers will not be receiving new rocks from the M, but may have the option to upgrade to real guns as supplies permit (which they won't).

Frazzled wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

The Navy provides the transportation. Thats been canon since 2nd Ed to avoid another Heresy. The Ministorum requisitions the transport and coordinates.

The Navy doesn't 'provide the transportation'. They operate and crew the transports, which are Munitorum conveyers.

Then of course, the Navy also operates the warships.

Kanluwen wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

The Navy provides the transportation. Thats been canon since 2nd Ed to avoid another Heresy. The Ministorum requisitions the transport and coordinates.

The Navy doesn't 'provide the transportation'. They operate and crew the transports, which are Munitorum conveyers.

Then of course, the Navy also operates the warships.

I highly doubt the Munitorum owns the ships, but are the purview of the Navy or a Navy entity. If they are crewed by the Navy, they are Navy.

Frazzled wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

The Navy provides the transportation. Thats been canon since 2nd Ed to avoid another Heresy. The Ministorum requisitions the transport and coordinates.

The Navy doesn't 'provide the transportation'. They operate and crew the transports, which are Munitorum conveyers.

Then of course, the Navy also operates the warships.

I highly doubt the Munitorum owns the ships, but are the purview of the Navy or a Navy entity. If they are crewed by the Navy, they are Navy.

They're called "conveyance transports", and are staffed almost entirely by Munitorum--excepting the actual bridge crew and a security contingent, who are Navy.

They seemingly fall into a grey area where they're recognized as Munitorum in organizational charts, but since the Munitorum is part of the Guard--can't be entirely operated by the Munitorum.

Exactly, hence my point. The M (I can't type that to save my life) can't control both the Guard and its transport, as it violates the Post Heresy doctrine.

There should be no issue with the M being able to schedule transport of munitions and troops, as long as final control is the Imperium Navy.

This is based on:
*Post Heresy strictures that a regiment can't transport itself.
*Tangentially how the British operate (which is what this is really based on). The British merchant marine transports troops, nad falls lossely under the Navy in wartime (not sure if completely separate in peacetime).

At the end of the Day its a quibble point and is not relevant to the Guard themselves.