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Lobukia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Lobukia wrote:define powerful

Ability to crush an opponent with an army?
Power and control over others at their height?
Hand to hand combat?
Resources and influence?
Most dangerous to cross?

I'm going to go with questions 2,4,5 and say the biggest Pappa Smurf, RG.

He's outclassed by Horus on all accounts.

How do you figure? Might be able to make a close case on item 1 and 5 (I'd tip them slightly to Horus... maybe), I give you item 3 for Horus... other 2 are not close

At his height RG directly commanded more marines, guardsmen, and ships than Horus

Before his death RG would have conquered/commanded more planets than Horus

More people would have served under RG's rule and for longer than Horus

More weapons and arms would have been built under RG guidance than Horus

And it would be fair to say the RG's lasting influence is at least as significant as Horus...

If you take RG at Horus's death, sure... but RG lasts way longer and does way more after ole Black-armored Backstab dies... making him more Powerful

Horus commanded literally every military force in the entire Imperium at his height. I don't even want to speculate how many non-military forces he commanded.

Ya, Horus is greater than The Emperor....Sorta.

Ogryn wrote:Ya, Horus is greater than The Emperor....Sorta.

Nope. Forces controlled? The Emperor controlled literally everyone. Influence? He's the Emperor of Mankind. Resources? He controlled every aspect of the Imperium. Combat ability? Well, he beat a weakened C'tan, and has utterly destroyed Horus. The Emperor wins on all accounts.

iproxtaco wrote:

Ogryn wrote:Ya, Horus is greater than The Emperor....Sorta.

Nope. Forces controlled? The Emperor controlled literally everyone. Influence? He's the Emperor of Mankind. Resources? He controlled every aspect of the Imperium. Combat ability? Well, he beat a weakened C'tan, and has utterly destroyed Horus. The Emperor wins on all accounts.

The Emperor controlled everyone, that didnt fall to chaos, or are Eldars, or Necrons, or Nids, or Orks... The Emperor controlled every aspect of the Imperium, Horus had the backing of the entirety of the warp. Combat ability see as follows:

Life
noun
1. The condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.
Kill
1. To deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.

The Emperor killed Horus, and Horus killed the Emperor. Pretty even on the combat ability.

That's what I meant, really. The Imperium, the most powerful faction at the time, and still is, was under His control. Horus was beneath Him at His height.

That's a stupidly simplistic definition of 'life', and can't apply to the Emperor. His mind is alive, he's aware of the Imperium's struggles and his own existence. It's in some sort of Inquisition book, where the Emperor speaks to someone called Draco, I believe. In 40k, with the Warp, and psychic powers, 'life' is far harder to define.

That is the definition of life. If it cant apply to the Emperor because he was never a living being because his minds state was above that of "life" as we know, it as a being of the warp, then I could agree with that; however that does not change the fact that Horus killed the Emperors physical body.

Haven't read the story with Draco, and it is possible the Emperor realizes Man has become the authoritarian theocracy that he sought to destroy. That would suck, chalk that up as another win for the God-Emperor.

I could also see the virgin mary in my pancakes. Just as an alternative point of view to the Draco scenario. Not saying you aren't right on this. I believe the Age of Apostay had the Emperor communicate with someone (sisters?) as well. The mind can exist without life, in our world it may not be able to communicate without life; however this does not disprove its continued existence. Just ask anyone who believes in the soul and an afterlife. There are plenty of those folks around to make that argument. In 40k the mind can communicate through the warp. We might alter the definition of alive to include the continuation of the mind after the physical has failed, but that is an alteration that must be expressed.

Either way, it is 40k, fluff is, in the best cases, only slightly different. If we are lucky. Other times, it is completely contradictory. This we must always remember.

The Emperor was a bit stronger than Horus, and held back the majority of the fight. Stated in several places, and detailed in Visions of Heresy.

Still dead. Weaker opponents win everyday with better strategy. Horus just had a built in, I'm your favorite son tactic. Its like cheating, but... Chaos.

You can't ignore context.

But you're right, at that point, Horus did beat the Emperor in terms of ruthlessness.

My two favorite Loyalist Primarchs have 0 votes, and my absolute favorite having 1. I'm so hipster...

KilroyKiljoy wrote:My two favorite Loyalist Primarchs have 0 votes. I'm so hipster...

HERESY.

Manus was pretty boss really.

He IMO might of been the most endurant Primarch, taking a massive Thunder Hammer (For lack of better term, was stronger) wielded by Fulgrim to the temple, and proceeded to nearly disembowel him.

Were it not for the Laer sword, Fulgrim would be dead.

Corax is pretty beast, he can jump in and out of battle easily and his claws are badass.

Didn't he beat the **** out of Lorgar?

Yeah, he basically impaled Lorgar with his fist and proceeded to carve up his chest like a Christmas Turkey.

To be fair though, Lorgar was probably on the lower end of primarchs.

Isn't Lorgar one of if not the most powerful Chaos Undivided Daemon Princes?

Ya, Corax is cool, I have always liked the Raven guard.

Well yeah, since the only other Chaos UNDIVIDED Daemon Prince Primarch is Peturabo . . .

Hm, does nobody like the Khan? I guess not..

AchillesFTW wrote:Well yeah, since the only other Chaos UNDIVIDED Daemon Prince Primarch is Peturabo . . .

He didn't say only Daemon Primarch, he said Lorgar was the most powerful Undivided Daemon Prince. Since he's favored by all four, and doesn't just ally himself with which ever one will prove the most lucrative, I'd say yes, he probably is, that we know of.

I'd say the lion was the most powerful. The wolf is powerful but still has a temper, and a whimsy that is sated through foolish actions, He could've pulled intel on magnus, then wiped out the thousand sons IF the E had commanded it. Angron is just bloodthirsty and would easily be sated. Sang is too vain.

Makes sense though, it took a miniture version of the HH to actually *kill* Lion El Johnson, and he's just healing, like the rest of them, in fact its been confirmed that he's healing his wounds, perhaps earlier than Gualllium.

Considering how the OP mentions killing in his post i'd assume he's not talking about influence or indirect trickery.

So following his example you guys should be comparing them in 1v1 arena type deathmatch style.
In which i'd like to see the results both pre and post heresy.

Pre-Heresy? Magnus, Sanguinus, Angron, or Horus. Sanguinus and Horus have skill, Angron has brute strength and combat ability, Magnus has his psychic powers.
Post-Heresy? Magnus, Lorgar, or Angron. Magnus and Angron for the same reasons as Pre-Heresy, Lorgar, is backed by all four Chaos Gods, and he seems to have bucked up his act after Corax.

Just a little tid-bit , did the Emperor make them capable of being his equals/possibly surpassing him or just strong enough to be in charge of their legions?

Leonorai wrote:Just a little tid-bit , did the Emperor make them capable of being his equals/possibly surpassing him or just strong enough to be in charge of their legions?

Considering he beat Horus, the best of the Primarchs, even when he was powered up by all four Chaos Gods, no.

Oh, this thread again.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Oh, this thread again.

Four pages in. Lol at you.

iproxtaco wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Oh, this thread again.

Four pages in. Lol at you.

I was busy burning heretics. Sorry...

iproxtaco wrote:
Horus commanded literally every military force in the entire Imperium at his height. I don't even want to speculate how many non-military forces he commanded.

...and lost. Guilliman commands the same (just not at height) and wins... and no Emperor to overrule him.

Much easier to command, betray, and win (never mind lose)... much much more difficult to rebuild, restore, preserve and win (especially after the last guy with that power was a back stabber)

Lobukia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Horus commanded literally every military force in the entire Imperium at his height. I don't even want to speculate how many non-military forces he commanded.

...and lost. Guilliman commands the same (just not at height) and wins... and no Emperor to overrule him.

I'm talking about when Horus was Warmaster. When Guilliman was at his height, either just before the Heresy, or just after it, he never commanded anywhere near what Horus did at his height. You're talking about during the Heresy, when he commanded about half of the Imperium's forces, which was still more than Guilliman ever did.

Much easier to command, betray, and win (never mind lose)... much much more difficult to rebuild, restore, preserve and win (especially after the last guy with that power was a back stabber)

Yes, that was Guilliman's strong point, he was unparalleled in his ability to build rather than destroy.

CpatTom wrote:The Emperor killed Horus, and Horus killed the Emperor. Pretty even on the combat ability.

There is a difference in what the Hours did to the Emperor and vise versa.
Horus's soul was utterly destroyed so the Big four could not bring him back as a Deamon.
The Emp was still alive when he left the battle barge and gave instructions verbally on how to bring the Golden Throne up to spec.