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punkow wrote:I have to say that I should see him actually used before saying that Imotekh is OP... His Night fighting ability is HUGE but he's true crap in CC... Draigo for example is a nice force multiplier and kicks every ass you send to him in CC...

About Flayed ones I also think the new models are meh... But I was asking about their rules... Are they usable? I have 20 of them and I would like to sell 'em to my necron buddy but I don't wanna get money from him for a crappy unit...

No rending, no power weapons, I2, no special CC rules (like terrifying visage before)....all they have is an extra attack and a larger squad size. Basically, they're our CC blob squad with nothing special. Sheer weight of numbers will win them the day but not against an opposing GOOD CC unit.

Oh, and I don't think they're fearless either.

Yeah, of all the models in Codex I'd say Flayed Ones were the only ones who actually got worse. Not much worse, they were pretty terrible before, but definitely worse.

The treatment of Flayed Ones reminds me of Mandrakes somewhat, yet in this case, instead of getting slightly better but still rubbish, they got slighty worse and thus slightly more rubbish.

Mandrakes got a nicer model update though...

Flashman wrote:The treatment of Flayed Ones reminds me of Mandrakes somewhat, yet in this case, instead of getting slightly better but still rubbish, they got slighty worse and thus slightly more rubbish.

Mandrakes got a nicer model update though...

No way. I could very well have done without cheesy Warcraft-rip-offs in 40K.

Flayed Ones, both new and old, are far superiour to the lazy copy-and-paste Mandrakes they did.

Having had a good read through and a decent chat with the GW guys at my local store I think on balance it looks a very good codex. It gives the crons loads more stuff, a lot of which is cool and interesting, but without making them OP or forcing them down certain routes.

I am very much a player who likes to field forces made up of mutually suporting units of different types, I don't like spam armies. To this end I enjoyed the codex.

I think they toned down the bits that were ridiculously OP: monoliths and C'Tan and bulked up the areas that were missing. Doesn't make them into a mech force either, allows them to continue as a foot force with some interesting but eminently killable vehicles. Loads of firepower but clear vulnerabilities.

Overall I am very impressed! Well done GW.

I agree, I think overall it's a balanced Codex that has a lot of potential synergy, potential builds, combinations and variety of builds and I think it will be of a competitive, but not dominant power level (akin to Tyranids).

HOWEVER, I think there are some internal balance issues, such as the clear strengths of Scarabs and then clear weaknesses of Praetorians, Flayed Ones and much of the pricing or changes within the 'dex.

My only problem with the Codex is being able to take all the units that I want to take in a smaller points game. I think Wraiths are really cool and approve of the keeping of their stats for the most part the same and giving them Rending.. although if a unit ignores terrain and walls and what-not... and seemingly phases in and out of reality... why not just make their attacks Power Weapon? Oh well.

Flayed ones are not the best, and I think that to charge $45 for 5 of them is just nuts.

Scarabs are nuts now, that's a definite. Ripping vehicles to part and being able to hide just about anywhere on the board is crazy good. This is something that will cause most armies to bring at least one squad of these buggers. Here's to the death of AV14.

Destroyers are interesting, having preferred enemy against everything, that's cool.

The one thing that struck me odd was the fact that just about every slot has a huge amount of variety except for troops, where there are just two options. I suppose it makes sense... and I haven't fully read the book yet so I can't say whether any characters make a certain squad scoring or troops but I will read on. Nice book so far.

Still to early to say for sure, need to play them and play against, se tournament resoults etc.

Some of the sides I dont like is that they got abit many insta kill items (not even insta death but insta kill so ethernal warrior can go hang) like Labyrinth, Monolith, Arrow (did i miss any?). The ES is a bit OTT since along with all the insta kill items, the scarab mind swarm thingy (hit random modell in unit thou) your heros, MS and multi wound units are in a big heap of trubble. Wich brings me to all the anti Tyranids wich just keeps making them a pure punching bag :/ .
They got alot of new nasty unique rules wich I find might be to many for one team. But then this might be GWs new aproche, giving all new codexs their new unique rules wich will be bad for those left behind but will balance itself out in the end (atleast I hope so).
Then there is the Death Ray wich have the possibility to hit and possibly kill around 5-7 landraiders (Highly unlikely situation) but I dont think any weapon out side Apoc should even have that possibility.
The Flayed ones should be troop or at least better in some way, also only 2 troops (warriors, immortals) is a real draw back and they dont even get any cool upgrades like other troops.

On a personal note I loved the old fluff better, yes the new fluff gives them much more character and a "real" story. But what I loved with the old so much more was all the mystic about the necrons. They felt enigmatic, unkown, strange and alien for me, you got more speculations and not much was known about them. I felt this could be a really good theme for the necrons but now I feel that they are just one of the others and not that "speciall".

The modells should have less buttons and leavers, and be more plugged in necrons (if any "driver") since why should the sophisticated necro dermis of the necrons force them to use buttons instead of just "plug in and play"?

All in all thou its still to early to say for me if I like or not.

Isengard wrote:Having had a good read through and a decent chat with the GW guys at my local store I think on balance it looks a very good codex...

Um... at what point did GW staff start given out balanced opinons? I've yet to come across a codex that GW employee didn't declare to be the most amazing army book ever (even Dark Angels!)

I did. A guy who used to work at GW a long time ago said the SM in Battle for Maccrage were only a small part of an army, and I should taake ther Nids, with their higher model count, more units, and basically calling the nids superior( 4th ed Codex). He wasn't biased or anything, he was a Blood Angels man at the time himself, but thought that the nids in the box were better by far.

Matt1785 wrote:My only problem with the Codex is being able to take all the units that I want to take in a smaller points game. I think Wraiths are really cool and approve of the keeping of their stats for the most part the same and giving them Rending.. although if a unit ignores terrain and walls and what-not... and seemingly phases in and out of reality... why not just make their attacks Power Weapon? Oh well.

While a power weapon would be nice, I honestly think that would make Wraiths way stupid powerful and jack up their points. Fluff wise, there's an explanation for why it's rending. A Wraith can be completely in another phase state for an indefinite period, but it takes far more stress and power to be in two different phases (which I kind of get). So for a Wraith to still have its body phased out and immune to damage, while phasing in its blades past armour requires a degree of luck (good timing, otherwise they miss and phase in outside the body/armour altogether) as well as a lot of power. Seems to me that's more suited to rending than power weapons.

Been a Necron player for about 2 years - they were my first army... I love the new codex Cant wait to get the ghost arks and doomsday ark built and trying them out! (Also can't wait for the army builder update lol)

Well I'm leaning towards not so good but I havent played with them yet. I dont like what they did with the destroyer or wraiths. Wraiths wipcoils makes up for the low initiative but no reanimation? Why change them in such a drastic way in the first place. Why did Destroyers gauss cannons get so nerfed- less range, strength, and shots? Why the need for such change again? And here is the kicker, not a single unit besides the C'tan ave a base I stat above 2. They are supposed to be a shooty army but only 3 weapons have a range above 24", so they can STILL be picked of by other heavy weapons units from other armies. I guess we will just have to see.

Oh and by the way... WHERE THE "F" ARE MY PARIAHS!?!

lowmanjason wrote:Well I'm leaning towards not so good but I havent played with them yet. I dont like what they did with the destroyer or wraiths. Wraiths wipcoils makes up for the low initiative but no reanimation? Why change them in such a drastic way in the first place. Why did Destroyers gauss cannons get so nerfed- less range, strength, and shots? Why the need for such change again? And here is the kicker, not a single unit besides the C'tan ave a base I stat above 2. They are supposed to be a shooty army but only 3 weapons have a range above 24", so they can STILL be picked of by other heavy weapons units from other armies. I guess we will just have to see.

Oh and by the way... WHERE THE "F" ARE MY PARIAHS!?!

Wraiths now Ignore Terrain, meaning with Whipcoils they go first in combat even attacking in cover, have 2W, and rending. With a base cost of 6 points less..and you are complaining about them? They are significantly better.

It's a lot harder to be picked apart, than they seem. You'll be a bit surprised.

And your Pariahs are now Lycheguard.

imark789 wrote:
The fluff I'm undecided on. Part of me likes that they gave Necrons a bit more personality, because it makes things a bit more interesting. Another part of me thinks they made them a bit too human, they seem less other-wordly and robotic.

Pick up a copy of The Fall of Damnos.

The new crons are most definetly not "human". Not in any sense of the word.

...the book makes me want to run Flayed ones just because of how they're described as thinking/acting.

I think taking 2 units of 20 warriors both with a phaeron with rez orb, backed up by a couple of ghost arks would make a nice solid core to an army.

I prefer the new fluff much more, to be honest. It gives them more personality. Can't really say anything on the rules, other than EEEE TRIARCH STALKER.

Ohyeah, that's right! Necrons now have a walker? Is it any good?

@ Sasori
1- wraiths always ignored terrain
2- Whipcoils are 10 point upgrade making them a 45 point model to more or less equal their former 6 I stat.
3- I had another point but now I forgot it! lol
4- Oh I remember now, I do like the fact that you can take up to 5 now. Rending... ehh whatever. I have said many times before is a non issue for me. Flayed Ones should have rending.

So they come out better overall I admit but I don't like what they did to change form Necrons to just robots

Deadshot wrote:Ohyeah, that's right! Necrons now have a walker? Is it any good?

Very good. Works extremely well as a support unit to Destroyers and other heavy support shooting units.

The Stalker is a bit pricey though; so whilst it's good, it's also an investment.

lowmanjason wrote:Flayed Ones should have rending.

So they come out better overall I admit but I don't like what they did to change form Necrons to just robots

Why should Flayed Ones have rending?

@Just Dave
Because, what else do they have? Three S4 I2 attacks that you most like won't be able to use because they will almost always go last and be dead by the time its their turn to strike because now they only have a 4+ save. Now are just a ineffective CC unit. I would gladly take the old Flayed Ones over the new ones any day.

1- wraiths always ignored terrain

Right.

2- Whipcoils are 10 point upgrade making them a 45 point model to more or less equal their former 6 I stat.

No, it's significantly better. Things that have I6 are now going after you instead of at the same time and things that are Higher than I6 are going after you. This is a pretty big deal for Eldar/Dark Eldar Armies/Genetealers etc etc.

3- I had another point but now I forgot it! lol

Uh, OK.

4- Oh I remember now, I do like the fact that you can take up to 5 now. Rending... ehh whatever. I have said many times before is a non issue for me. Flayed Ones should have rending.

You can take up to 6. Rending is a pretty big deal. Being able to ignore Marine Armor, and even more reliably pen tanks, is very very good.

So they come out better overall I admit but I don't like what they did to change form Necrons to just robots

Yes, I did enjoy the old models a lot. I'm looking forward to see what they do with the new ones, I'm hoping they look spectacular.

2- Whipcoils are 10 point upgrade making them a 45 point model to more or less equal their former 6 I stat.

No, it's significantly better. Things that have I6 are now going after you instead of at the same time and things that are Higher than I6 are going after you. This is a pretty big deal for Eldar/Dark Eldar Armies/Genetealers etc etc.

Like I said, more or less.

4- Oh I remember now, I do like the fact that you can take up to 5 now. Rending... ehh whatever. I have said many times before is a non issue for me. Flayed Ones should have rending.

You can take up to 6. Rending is a pretty big deal. Being able to ignore Marine Armor, and even more reliably pen tanks, is very very good.

You got me on the 6.

Rending is all great and everything but not all attacks rend. If it were a power weapon then all attacks would be a power weapon attack, not saying they should be power weapons at all, and having rending is nice, but its not really reliable.

lowmanjason wrote:@Just Dave
Because, what else do they have? Three S4 I2 attacks that you most like won't be able to use because they will almost always go last and be dead by the time its their turn to strike because now they only have a 4+ save. Now are just a ineffective CC unit. I would gladly take the old Flayed Ones over the new ones any day.

But why rending? There's other, more suitable ways of changing them to be better in close combat. I agree, they need to be better in close combat, but I don't see the justification behind rending other than seeking a suitably powerful fix-it button to make a unit good in close combat.
Terror/visage, preferred enemy, higher initiative, better infiltration are all more suitable ways of fixing it, and then others too.

Arandmoor wrote:

imark789 wrote:
The fluff I'm undecided on. Part of me likes that they gave Necrons a bit more personality, because it makes things a bit more interesting. Another part of me thinks they made them a bit too human, they seem less other-wordly and robotic.

Pick up a copy of The Fall of Damnos.

The new crons are most definetly not "human". Not in any sense of the word.

...the book makes me want to run Flayed ones just because of how they're described as thinking/acting.

I just read the book too, it makes me want to run the storm lord with lots of wraiths around him like in the book.

One thing I do dislike is the apparent desire to want to have their cake and eat it, as it were.

E.g. rejoicing at loss of phase out, then bemoaning living metal. (Without a point increase, that would not really be balanced).
Bemoaning a 5++, rejoicing at it being permanent.
Bemoaning warscythe changing, then realising it's actually better in more circumstances.
Bemoaning Scarabs being slower, rejoicing at increased power.
Bemoaning Tomb Kings in Space, then criticising 'Tesla' for being unoriginal.

(I'm watching the BoW video as I write this)
Whilst a lot of stuff is flawed and should really have been changed before the print and there are obvious weak points, as someone that themselves likes to develop rules, a lot of opinions and desires is just imbalanced and unreasonable IMHO, however obviously a lot of this is just resistance to change.

I don't have the codex but I really don't think I'll be getting it. I'm just so unimpressed with the lack of imagination.

The names are typically poor mish mashes of grimdark with a few halfway decent ones thrown in. I mean seriously Doomark? Death Marks?

And the over reliance on humanoid models is terrible. The old tomb spiders, wraiths and FW's tomb stalkers had potential but now we have robot skeletons, taller robot skeletons, robot skeletons with shoulder pads and robot skeletons driving flying tanks (and using joysticks and track balls). It's all just so dull...

And the guns that look like well guns. Necrons, eldar, 'nids, 3 alien races with vastly different tech and they still make guns with sights and clips and barrels. Why not staves (I know they have some) or built in weapons, something, anything more interesting than a robot skeleton holding a gun or a sword or a shield.

The DOOMARK is especially egregious here with the most phallic weapon GW has ever produced held between the legs of a robot skeleton. It looks like a parody someone did on photoshop.

It all just feels so half baked.

it's a pity that scarabs,destroyers and wraiths are all fast attack :(

it would have been better if destroyers were either heavy support or elite.

eldaritis...

Mr Nobody wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

imark789 wrote:
The fluff I'm undecided on. Part of me likes that they gave Necrons a bit more personality, because it makes things a bit more interesting. Another part of me thinks they made them a bit too human, they seem less other-wordly and robotic.

Pick up a copy of The Fall of Damnos.

The new crons are most definetly not "human". Not in any sense of the word.

...the book makes me want to run Flayed ones just because of how they're described as thinking/acting.

I just read the book too, it makes me want to run the storm lord with lots of wraiths around him like in the book.

I'm pretty sure all the main players in the book except for the undying one were crypteks and not the special characters. Well and the flayed one lord thing that obviously doesn't exist.