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VampireDeLaVega wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

VampireDeLaVega wrote:

Space marine - Another human military faction that mostly deals with chaos, daemon, and necrons threats. Also make the entire faction more high tech looking. No more chapters, they are divided into legions now. 14 legions in total with each legion having 1 million space marine super solider.

That's actually quite interesting and unique...and specific. Might I ask how you came up with the number 14?

Random number lol

I would remove the whole story about the Emprah being 48 000ish years old. I'm sure we can think of any other excuse to give him uber powers. Hell, we could just say he was an insane, charismatic psyker-mad scientist. But he doesn't need to have seen every moment of human history. And I dislike the whole Star-child and Sensei stories, so...

Oh and I would too do away with the term Space Marine. It's annoying, when 'Adeptus Astartes' can't translate to that. Of course, Star Knights wouldn't be much better, but it'd be more accurate. Actually, I'd give them the name of Imperial Guards, distinguishing themselves from the Imperial Legions of Pre-Heresy.

Of course, bring down the level of implication of the Marines in everything. If they are so rare, then they can't make it to every conflict of a galaxy-wide empire, and then they wouldn't be the hero everyone sings about, the guardsmen would. Or the Sisters. Yeah. More Sisters.

Other than that. Well. Many things. You know what? I'd make the Primarchs still implicated (thoses who wouldn't be dead). They could be the uber-super player who still hold the IoM togheter. Or the reason why it's crumbling on itself.

And yeah 1st post!!!

I myself am new to 40k, well newish anyhow. And I came in from the RPG side(Rogue Trader to be precise). As a whole I like the setting and would not change all that much, but a few things I would.

Eldar: As they are a dying race I would expect them to have fewer foot soldiers and more spirit driven troops. Something like Psyker controlled drone troops would work as well.. The few living that see combat should be the ultra powerful or the elite. They are an old, technically powerful race. Kinda stupid to throw away numbers you do not have.

Squats: Never happened. Just no, no space dwarves. And big wheel riding, viking biker space dwarves just...hell no.

Ratlings: same deal. We do not need space dwarves and that leaves even less place for the sad waste of paper that are space hobbits. Just stop.

Chaos goals: The goal of the Chaos gods is not to destroy the universe. that is well..stupid. The goal is to convert it into a more pleasing shape. They feed off of worship, they want more worship, not annihilation.

Necrons: From what I read the older fluff was cooler. But I would mix it a bit. I would have a few leaders much like now, but still serving their masters.Most of the race are more or less mindless killing machines. You can not reason with them and you can not talk them down. You are simply something to be killed or converted to serve.


A few things here I simply do not agree with. I tend to like the term "Space Marine" and think the Tau are dark enough. They are not in your face dark, but they are indeed dark.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Mortarion was in the material realm, not "his own dimension".

Never fails to amuse me that the story gets more and more exaggerated depending on how someone wants to portray it.

Ah, sorry. Messed up the timeline. The battle with mortarion was BEFORE he was sent to the warp by M'kar.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Draigo's stuff is plenty silly, but every time I see someone talking about it the story seems to have grown in some silly way.

Yeah I just thought they had battled in the warp, hence "own dimension".

Anyways, glad we set the record straight.

Yes, he only battles the actual Chaos Gods in their own dimension.

with the Draigo/Mortarion thing, it is still RIDICULOUS to think that he can defeat, not just a normal primarch (who is already godlike) but a DAEMON one that is many times more powerful than normal.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, he only battles the actual Chaos Gods in their own dimension.

Once again:
No he doesn't. He has been fighting the followers of the Chaos Gods in their own dimension. Stop posting misinformation, Kamikaze.

Blackhoof wrote:with the Draigo/Mortarion thing, it is still RIDICULOUS to think that he can defeat, not just a normal primarch (who is already godlike) but a DAEMON one that is many times more powerful than normal.

You do know that the Daemon Primarchs are effectively bound by the same laws governing the Daemons they lead into battle, yes?
Look up Angron and his war against Armageddon--he was banished, same as Mortarion was.

Angron we at least have more detail on and so can comment that it took alot to banish him. I hope that at some point the Mortarion story gets similar treatment so we can stop whining about it. That is to say, a detailed explanation that it took a whole bunch of fighting and junk.

For what I would change though-

Necrons- Ruled by the C'tan as masters of the entire race again. Lords and Overlords have personality but still serve the C'tan, overall are more unified and don't use Dolomen Gates, because they have FTL. C'tan shards are fragments of the other C'tan that the big four have managed to destroy and use as reinforcements for their armies. The Praetorians and the whole Triarch organization is a rebel group within the Necrons for those who do want to be free, and as such, both C'tan shards and Praetorian anythings cannot be fielded in the same army.

Chaos- More explanation about other large warp storms elsewhere, like the Maelstrom or Storm of the Emperor's Wrath. I think there should be much more fighting in places such as those as the Imperium tries to keep out the constant flow of chaos that comes from there. Also, rivalry between the various legions should've died down by now to the point where they work as one army until they can get out of the Eye, it may have not been the full 10K years for them, but they Have to be sick of that place by now.

Tau- More races included in their Empire that are talked about actively. With the large number of species they've encountered and assimilated, their technology really should be far more varied. Tau should be shooting, Kroot ambushing, Vespid scouting, Deminurg doing heavy siege, and other races doing either basic ground-fighting or some other role that has yet to be filled. Each race can truly capitalize on their physical abilities because the others are there to compensate.

Iguard- The actual heroes. They are what everyone will see because they are Everywhere. As such, I'd think that the overall public opinion of them should be much greater, celebrated fighters of the xenos and defenders of man.

Space Marines- Just increase their rarity in fights. Shouldn't really be a case of them swooping in to save the Iguard. The should be the ones in zones the Iguard isn't even allowed near. Highly specialized troops.

Eldar- More technologically based army. They are rare and as such shouldn't be throwing out more Eldar then mandated into a fight. Really, I feel like Tau Gun Drones and such are more suited for these guys then the Tau, who are already the sharp shooters. Maybe some more heavy automated war walkers or something similar.

I think that's all, no real major changes, just a little something to switch it up

Azure wrote:Angron we at least have more detail on and so can comment that it took alot to banish him. I hope that at some point the Mortarion story gets similar treatment so we can stop whining about it. That is to say, a detailed explanation that it took a whole bunch of fighting and junk.

For what I would change though-

Necrons- Ruled by the C'tan as masters of the entire race again. Lords and Overlords have personality but still serve the C'tan, overall are more unified and don't use Dolomen Gates, because they have FTL. C'tan shards are fragments of the other C'tan that the big four have managed to destroy and use as reinforcements for their armies. The Praetorians and the whole Triarch organization is a rebel group within the Necrons for those who do want to be free, and as such, both C'tan shards and Praetorian anythings cannot be fielded in the same army.

This.
I support this variation of the fluff completely.

Take out ghetto webway entrances and yeah, thats about good.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Take out ghetto webway entrances and yeah, thats about good.

That's what Dolmen gates are.

Azure wrote:Angron we at least have more detail on and so can comment that it took alot to banish him. I hope that at some point the Mortarion story gets similar treatment so we can stop whining about it. That is to say, a detailed explanation that it took a whole bunch of fighting and junk.

For what I would change though-

Necrons- Ruled by the C'tan as masters of the entire race again. Lords and Overlords have personality but still serve the C'tan, overall are more unified and don't use Dolomen Gates, because they have FTL. C'tan shards are fragments of the other C'tan that the big four have managed to destroy and use as reinforcements for their armies. The Praetorians and the whole Triarch organization is a rebel group within the Necrons for those who do want to be free, and as such, both C'tan shards and Praetorian anythings cannot be fielded in the same army.

Tau- More races included in their Empire that are talked about actively. With the large number of species they've encountered and assimilated, their technology really should be far more varied. Tau should be shooting, Kroot ambushing, Vespid scouting, Deminurg doing heavy siege, and other races doing either basic ground-fighting or some other role that has yet to be filled. Each race can truly capitalize on their physical abilities because the others are there to compensate.

I agree with these completely. TO be honest, reading that last part of your necrons thing made met think of Farsight

And I completely agree with the tau thing, in totality.

I want to see Tarellians as heavier troops for assault, demiurgs filling the HS slot as much as broadsides, and I want them to put Nicassar on the front lines. Psychic powers are something the tau sorely need.

As a side note, I really like how kroot work now in the game. They will get torn up in shooting and aren't quite as good in melee as I would hope, but the 2+ they get from G2G in cover is very helpful. 20 2+ models is beautiful.

Though I think they should get a 5++ or 6++ that has to do with dodging, so they don't get shot to pieces so quickly on their way to cover.

Remove Space Wolves. That's all.

Kanluwen wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:with the Draigo/Mortarion thing, it is still RIDICULOUS to think that he can defeat, not just a normal primarch (who is already godlike) but a DAEMON one that is many times more powerful than normal.

You do know that the Daemon Primarchs are effectively bound by the same laws governing the Daemons they lead into battle, yes?
Look up Angron and his war against Armageddon--he was banished, same as Mortarion was.

Yes but Angron required about a hundred Grey Knights, of which only a dozen or so remained...

The fact that he's one man, sorry, one GM GK, is just crazy.

Frankenberry wrote:Finally.a constructive thread involving the 40k universe.


Dark Eldar - Again, dying race. But rather than actually accomplishing anything, all they do is screw and torture. Kind of a stupid reason to exist, fun, but stupid. Rather than their own faction, make it a sub faction of Eldar. Lots of the same ideas, just darker about how they go about it.

Dark Eldar are NOT dying!
At least according to the latest codex

Personally I would make marines less awesome and focus less on the Imperium

All fluff written by Mat Ward. I'm not bandwagon hopping, I really do find his stuff biased, over-the-top, 12-year-old-homebrew-chapter, pants-on-head slowed BS.

Squats would have been more like the duergar from D&D. They'd have had a more grimdark official name for their race - "squat" would be a demeaning nickname the wider imperium called them.

Oh, and chaos would have captured Cadia and won the 13th crusade.

Ulthanashville wrote:
Oh, and chaos would have captured Cadia and won the 13th crusade.

If that happened, then humanity would be so fethed its not even funny.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:with the Draigo/Mortarion thing, it is still RIDICULOUS to think that he can defeat, not just a normal primarch (who is already godlike) but a DAEMON one that is many times more powerful than normal.

You do know that the Daemon Primarchs are effectively bound by the same laws governing the Daemons they lead into battle, yes?
Look up Angron and his war against Armageddon--he was banished, same as Mortarion was.

Yes but Angron required about a hundred Grey Knights, of which only a dozen or so remained...

The fact that he's one man, sorry, one GM GK, is just crazy.

And who says Mortarion was alone? Who says Draigo was?

We know that there was a battle going on. The limited facts we have of the matter state that Mortarion fought and killed the previous Grandmaster of the Grey Knights and that Draigo then slew Mortarion.

But of course, that just gets ignored because it says the Draigo defeated Mortarion by himself and it leaves out the fact that this is in the middle of a war.

I get that people hate Ward, etc etc. But Draigo isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be, especially considering that the information on this one particular conflict is practically nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Kanluwen wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:with the Draigo/Mortarion thing, it is still RIDICULOUS to think that he can defeat, not just a normal primarch (who is already godlike) but a DAEMON one that is many times more powerful than normal.

You do know that the Daemon Primarchs are effectively bound by the same laws governing the Daemons they lead into battle, yes?
Look up Angron and his war against Armageddon--he was banished, same as Mortarion was.

Yes but Angron required about a hundred Grey Knights, of which only a dozen or so remained...

The fact that he's one man, sorry, one GM GK, is just crazy.

And who says Mortarion was alone? Who says Draigo was?

We know that there was a battle going on. The limited facts we have of the matter state that Mortarion fought and killed the previous Grandmaster of the Grey Knights and that Draigo then slew Mortarion.

But of course, that just gets ignored because it says the Draigo defeated Mortarion by himself and it leaves out the fact that this is in the middle of a war.

I get that people hate Ward, etc etc. But Draigo isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be, especially considering that the information on this one particular conflict is practically nothing in the grand scheme of things.

No, it says that Draigo was alone and Mortarion had his guards. Read it. Seriously. It uses the word alone.

Kanluwen wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Blackhoof wrote:with the Draigo/Mortarion thing, it is still RIDICULOUS to think that he can defeat, not just a normal primarch (who is already godlike) but a DAEMON one that is many times more powerful than normal.

You do know that the Daemon Primarchs are effectively bound by the same laws governing the Daemons they lead into battle, yes?
Look up Angron and his war against Armageddon--he was banished, same as Mortarion was.

Yes but Angron required about a hundred Grey Knights, of which only a dozen or so remained...

The fact that he's one man, sorry, one GM GK, is just crazy.

And who says Mortarion was alone? Who says Draigo was?

We know that there was a battle going on. The limited facts we have of the matter state that Mortarion fought and killed the previous Grandmaster of the Grey Knights and that Draigo then slew Mortarion.

But of course, that just gets ignored because it says the Draigo defeated Mortarion by himself and it leaves out the fact that this is in the middle of a war.

I get that people hate Ward, etc etc. But Draigo isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be, especially considering that the information on this one particular conflict is practically nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Got me there.
I think it's the whole daemon primarch thing. Your big baddies that take forever to down and tonnes of resources to banish.

What little I've read though about him being stuck in the warp for so long and burning nurgle's jungle, doing random godly stuff while in the warp, it just gets a little unbelievable to me

LoneLictor wrote:
No, it says that Draigo was alone and Mortarion had his guards. Read it. Seriously. It uses the word alone.

And it also says that Mortarion defeated the Grey Knight Supreme Grand Master and that Draigo was elevated to his position on a battlefield.

So you're saying that Draigo--who was a Grand Master at the time--and his boss, the Supreme Grand Master rolled up to call Mortarion and his posse for a throwdown?

It is a single paragraph. A single paragraph, in a section titled "The Battle of Kornovin".

The paragraph:
"Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more."

That's not really "all" we have on this particular instance though. We have a small tidbit from page 38 too!
"He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaught of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve his forebear's name upon Mortarion's rotting heart --an insult that the Daemon has never forgotten".

Notice how it refers to Mortarion there. "The Daemon". Not "The Primarch". Mortarion, at this point, is more Daemon than Primarch.

Either way, I'm willing to give the background piece a bit of free reign simply because there is practically nothing to go on for it. It's a summary of an event which likely spanned hours, if not days. It's not enough to make a definitive decision as to whether or not Draigo is "ridiculous".

See, it says, "ALONE AND UNAIDED". Draigo, alone and unaided, defeats both Mortarion and his body guard. That's just stupid.

A single Grey Knight can't defeat both a Daemon Primarch and his posse. It's horrible, horrible fluff. I understand that Draigo is powerful, but Primarchs are crazy ass powerful. And if you can't understand why this is horrible fluff, you shouldn't be playing Warhammer 40k.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
Got me there.
I think it's the whole daemon primarch thing. Your big baddies that take forever to down and tonnes of resources to banish.

Most certainly, the Daemon Primarchs are nothing trifling! But it wasn't Draigo versus Mortarion, at least not for the entirety of the conflict. It was a battle, and Draigo was elevated to his rank on the battlefield. This was also not on a world bathed in warp energies, in all likelihood, meaning that Mortarion is subject to all the same rules of Daemons within the material realm.

What little I've read though about him being stuck in the warp for so long and burning nurgle's jungle, doing random godly stuff while in the warp, it just gets a little unbelievable to me

This is where things get a bit different though, in my opinion. It's made clear that Draigo has an "utter resistance to corruption" and that he had been slaughtering Daemons--not the Ruinous Powers themselves. The damage he did like burning Nurgle's Garden or toppling the Inevitable City?

It repairs itself. He can't win, and he is essentially subject to the same rules as the Daemons themselves. He can't go home. He's stuck, forever, in a realm of madness and impossibilities.


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LoneLictor wrote:See, it says, "ALONE AND UNAIDED". Draigo, alone and unaided, defeats both Mortarion and his body guard. That's just stupid.

"Battle of Kornovin", the presence of a Supreme Grand Master (and a Grand Master no less), alongside of the fact that Kaldor Draigo is elevated to his rank "amidst the din of the battlefield" suggests that he is not as alone as you think.

The idea of him cutting through an entire army? Yeah. That's absurd. Him butchering some Traitor Astartes on par with Typhus or the like to get at Mortarion?

That's not that ridiculous or absurd at all.

A single Grey Knight can't defeat both a Daemon Primarch and his posse. It's horrible, horrible fluff. I understand that Draigo is powerful, but Primarchs are crazy ass powerful.

Primarchs are "crazy powerful"(what exactly is the quantification for "crazy poweful" anyways? For that matter, I don't remember Mortarion having anything particularly noteworthy about him outside of his obscene immunity to toxins and poisons), certainly.

But Mortarion isn't just a Primarch anymore, and neither are his bodyguards simply Astartes anymore. The "Daemon" in the title should be a pretty clear cut clue as to how this becomes possible.

And if you can't understand why this is horrible fluff, you shouldn't be playing Warhammer 40k.

If you have to resort to "If you can't understand why X is bad, you shouldn't be doing Y" in a debate--I think you might want to step back and rethink your position.

Anyways, like I said: there's barely anything to go upon for this. It's a summary of an event. There aren't enough details to really condemn or laud the incident.

I think it should either focus exclusively on the Imperium, or focus equally on all factions. It doesn't make sense to spread the fanbase equally amongst all factions and then have the books be about a specific faction winning battle after battle against them.

If they had everything IoM, then it could be like Halo with just the single agreeable faction and it would be entertaining.

If they had it spread out, we would get to see more from the PoV of our favourite factions (I am looking at you, Ghazzy and Farsight)

Ya....definately Draigo. I'd take out Draigo. Then there's be less 15 page threads explaining how he's a stupid character.

I agree with Lone Lictor (no surprise there), but Matt Ward is an awful writer. A single Grey Knight taking out a dozen of Greater Daemons, then forcefully tattooing a Daemon Primarch? Ehm yeah right. Who is he again? The Emperor himself?

Kanluwen wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoneLictor wrote:See, it says, "ALONE AND UNAIDED". Draigo, alone and unaided, defeats both Mortarion and his body guard. That's just stupid.

"Battle of Kornovin", the presence of a Supreme Grand Master (and a Grand Master no less), alongside of the fact that Kaldor Draigo is elevated to his rank "amidst the din of the battlefield" suggests that he is not as alone as you think.

The idea of him cutting through an entire army? Yeah. That's absurd. Him butchering some Traitor Astartes on par with Typhus or the like to get at Mortarion?

That's not that ridiculous or absurd at all.

A single Grey Knight can't defeat both a Daemon Primarch and his posse. It's horrible, horrible fluff. I understand that Draigo is powerful, but Primarchs are crazy ass powerful.

Primarchs are "crazy powerful"(what exactly is the quantification for "crazy poweful" anyways? For that matter, I don't remember Mortarion having anything particularly noteworthy about him outside of his obscene immunity to toxins and poisons), certainly.

But Mortarion isn't just a Primarch anymore, and neither are his bodyguards simply Astartes anymore. The "Daemon" in the title should be a pretty clear cut clue as to how this becomes possible.

And if you can't understand why this is horrible fluff, you shouldn't be playing Warhammer 40k.

If you have to resort to "If you can't understand why X is bad, you shouldn't be doing Y" in a debate--I think you might want to step back and rethink your position.

Anyways, like I said: there's barely anything to go upon for this. It's a summary of an event. There aren't enough details to really condemn or laud the incident.

It says, "ALONE AND UNAIDED" which means he is "ALONE AND UNAIDED." I cannot stress this enough. Secondly, becoming a Daemon Prince makes you stronger (here are two sources for this; Lexicanum and the Warhammer 40k Wiki). So, when a Primarch becomes a Daemon Prince, he becomes stronger than the average Primarch. So, Draigo, ALONE AND UNAIDED (your yourself sourced this, so I don't need to), defeated something stronger than a Primarch and it's retinue. Secondly, Mortarion is stronger than Typhus because he is a Primarch.

You don't seem to really know what a Primarch is, so here's a link: Primarch. You also don't seem to know what "ALONE AND UNAIDED" means, so here are two other links: and . Hopefully those will help.

EDIT: Okay, the dictionary.com links didn't work. But you can go to Dictionary.com yourself and look 'em up, if you feel so inclined.

Without a doubt, in order of priority:

+ Make the origins of the Emperor, his will, what he is, and how the Imperium got to where it is a near complete mystery except very indirectly (Horus Heresy largely ruined 40k in my opinion because of this. Its as if Chaos player's interpretation of the lore became cannon..... )

+ Like the first, leave it open as to whether the Imperium is based on a complete lie or not ('grimdark' is only good if there is some possible light in the darkness, not some nihilist's fever dream)

+ Make the Imperium a little more reasonable in dealing with xenos (I like the whole xenophobia thing going on, but sometimes its a bit silly)

+Bring back squats

+Leave just about everything else the exact same

^How is that a Chaos Player's interpretation become canon? We saw for a fact that Horus was lied to and that the Emperor was completely in the right throughout the whole thing.

I really don't have a problem with the term 'Space Marine'. To me it is the Low Gothic version of the High Gothic "Adeptus Astartes".

H.B.M.C. wrote:I really don't have a problem with the term 'Space Marine'. To me it is the Low Gothic version of the High Gothic "Adeptus Astartes".

What about 'Ultramarines' who are both super marines and painted blue?