Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
...eh, I'd be wary of reading too much into Bernard's "death", the fact he's a Host means his demise only has to be final if the writers want it to be, they need only reveal his nature and location to another character who would be sympathetic/have something to gain from his return and they could use the park machinery to restore him as they restore all the other Hosts that get shot, stabbed, rent limb from limb etc.
I mean, we don't even really see him shoot himself, or how he shoots himself - he could have overcome Ford's will at the last moment, fired just to the side and collapsed with the effort. If they'd wanted it to be definitive, we'd have seen it up-close, or at least they would have had some gore spatter the window. Unless they just forgot that the audience have seen Hosts come back from horrifying "deaths" before, but I doubt that.
Overall it was a good episode, though more satisfying than mind-blowing given how much had already been figured out, which is good - reward the audience for paying attention, and then give us a fresh mindhump next week for the season finale
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/28 14:37:37
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
]...eh, I'd be wary of reading too much into Bernard's "death", the fact he's a Host means his demise only has to be final if the writers want it to be, they need only reveal his nature and location to another character who would be sympathetic/have something to gain from his return and they could use the park machinery to restore him as they restore all the other Hosts that get shot, stabbed, rent limb from limb etc.
I mean, we don't even really see him shoot himself, or how he shoots himself - he could have overcome Ford's will at the last moment, fired just to the side and collapsed with the effort. If they'd wanted it to be definitive, we'd have seen it up-close, or at least they would have had some gore spatter the window. Unless they just forgot that the audience have seen Hosts come back from horrifying "deaths" before, but I doubt that.
Spoiler:
I don't think Bernard is dead (or that there's a worry about him not coming back next episode). Ford says they have been through this a few times. He probably has a few backup bodies stowed somewhere and just uploads an old Bernard mind/memory backup to one and restarts him with adjusted parameters. They've probably been through this process a few times in the last 30 or so years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/28 23:46:42
So, Ok, I think I know what the final narrative might be.
Spoiler:
Ford kills everyone in the park. This may sound weird BUT just stay with me.
Logan says the park is hemorrhaging money. it costs them 40,000 per guest per day, there are 1400 they said at any given them. That is 56000000 a day the park makes. And it seems like they dont make money off anything else. The park has tons of skilled employees and has possibly an army of lawyers, construction teams and so forth. No to mention materials for the hosts for everything else aswell.
Ford doesnt want his creations to be used for anything but westworld, but he knows his time is slowly coming up.
It is shown that the code of the Hosts is being stolen BY DELOS THEMSELVES
So, Ford, with the narrative of Wyatt killing everyone, is going to show the world how dangerous the hosts really are and prevent people from ever taking advantage.
Wyatts men believe "This world doesnt belong to the old settlers(the guests) or the new ones(Delos)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/29 00:14:57
I didn't buy the B = A theory, and was wrong, but I had good reason not to buy it, and that hasn't been explained away, and its confirmation has created an enormous plot hole.
So a major theory is confirmed as to which apparent humans are not. I will admit I didn't read the signs myself, but then I didn't really pay much attention. I tend to place my mind in neutral when watching most SF nowadays. However it made sense, a lot of the staff could be hosts and some are directly confirmed as such, it would probably cut costs to some extent to automate. I didnt go looking for the androids because show like this often start well with a well drawn out first series but then pull a fast one and leave plot loose ends or leave out blanks to be filled in later that never get filled in. Battlestar Galactica burned my fingers big on this, excellent first series, but the cylon master plan plot thread didnt materialise, and the final five made as little sense.
However when I heard that....
Spoiler:
..... Bernard was Armold, I though. No way. That makes less sense. and now, sadly the nonsense is confirmed. Prepare for plot holes.
Arnold and Ford's work is very well recognised, it may not in any way be unique, and very likely is not. Androids almost certainly play a part in society outside the park in some form or other. What is certain is that Arnold would be a very well recognised figure, even if he was very secretive his business profile would have had government attention at the very least and it would be almost impossible to conceal his identity. Now not only is Bernard modeled on Arnold he closely resembles him. How if we had a society with human mimic androids and you worked in a company in the same industry and had a co-worker who looked like Alber Einstein, quacked like Albert Einstein, and was really good at physics, wouldn't you be a little suspicious.
We live in a society where people who make social media companies are household names and faces, pioneers in AI, with high profile entertainments attached would be instantly recognisable worldwide.
It is too much of a stretch for workers at Westworld not to recognise that one of the senior management is a clone of Arnold Weber, and if the truth was concealable from them, it would not be from the board and senior management. The only remaining outcome if that Bernard's status was known by just about everyone from the start, and everyone played along flawlessly, or they are nearly all androids themselves. Theresa would recognise not-Arnold art first meeting, and her fling with him was just some R&R with company property. even if everyone was in on it, or androids, what about Bernard himself. His connexion to Arnold is as easy to confirm as looking up Arnold Weber on a wiki and seeing his face, or being recognised by a wandering off reservation guest or a worker who hasn't got the script yet. I am holding with my current theory that this has been in fact overlooked by the plot writers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/29 04:52:25
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
I felt the same way, Orlanth, but I think it works because in the most recent of the timelines in the show, they made it clear that there's almost nothing known about Arnold, no images, nothing. And in the earliest of the timelines, when Ford and Arnold were building the camp (the timeline we see very little of), they were doing so alone or almost alone.
Even though they said that he's completely "disappeared", it just seems unbelievably unlikely that someone with the skill, intelligence and knowledge of Arnold would disappear like that when he died.
But I'm loving the show so much, I'm willing to suspend disbelief to see what next week holds in store... I sure do hope they explain this one!
I dont buy that. We have had reclusive tycoons before, Howard Hughes for instance, who were very private and not alot known about them. But we know what they looked like. they would have to sign tax records have some sorts of meetings and Arnold was known in the community at least by reputation, and Bernard appeared shortly after. Too many people would in a position to make comparisons.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Yes but that doesn't mean you are right, just that you are creating your own metafiction.
What's that? Spoilers ahead?
Spoiler:
It was said earlier that Ford did his best to hide anything about Arnold and even someone from Delos said the lawyers couldn't find anything about Armold. There was also years, if not a decade, between when Arnold was killed and when his simulacrum woke up. They say Delores killed him and in her walk through the old facility it is full of dead scientists and technicians. Now if we want to make assumptions it would be that Delores killed all of the original team, barring Ford. This would also explain all the measures toward safety and paranoia that Ford has and that anyone that worked with Arnold would be dead. Really how many people does Bernard actually interact with on regular basis? So here we have a case of a dude very few people work with being an exact copy of another dude who died decades ago that worked with even fewer people and who's very existence is actively being suppressed.
There is also interest from those who may have known about him to bury the truth:
Option A: Brilliant solitary genius creates cool theme park
Option B: Two brilliant geniuses co-create theme park, one of them is killed by his own creations, come pay $40K a day to hang out with those psycho murderbots
It has been shown and told fairly consistently that the only person who really knew Arnold were some of the hosts and Ford.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I was starting to buy into the theory that William = young man in black.. but then when he barged in on Dolores in the church.. that has me thinking they're different people now. Plus Harris doesn't have a big mole.. though I guess he would be rich enough to have it removed?
I was kinda thinking maybe Ford wants to kill everyone too.. if they go that route I was thinking they might be going for a twist, he's coming off as evil and crazy, but in reality trying to prevent the military from taking over his androids who he can't stop from becoming self aware, or something like that. But then, yeah, if the park has the tech, I'm sure the government does too anyway.
Necros wrote: but then when he barged in on Dolores in the church..
In that scene they showed Delores in different outfits seeing different things. Just as Bernard has 'awoken' before and done/said the same things we may be seeing same event repeating itself at different points in time. A closed loop, as it were. She keeps getting on the edge of awareness and finds the church over and over only to be reset, though my guess is that something different is going to happen this time and it may be Maeve that is the catalyst.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Necros wrote: but then when he barged in on Dolores in the church..
In that scene they showed Delores in different outfits seeing different things. Just as Bernard has 'awoken' before and done/said the same things we may be seeing same event repeating itself at different points in time. A closed loop, as it were. She keeps getting on the edge of awareness and finds the church over and over only to be reset, though my guess is that something different is going to happen this time and it may be Maeve that is the catalyst.
Yeah, the loop situation has finally been made clear by the knife wound...wounded Dolores is 'past', unwounded is 'present'. The reason the time shifts are so confusing for the hosts (and for us watching at times) is because they experience their memories completely vividly, as it's been explained a few times.
Clearly the hosts -- almost right from the beginning -- have been consciousness-capable, and have had many incidents over the years. Personally, I find that to be kind of a big twist from my original expectations of the show...the story isn't about the moment of singularity, but about how an entire sentient-capable population has been kept down for decades. It does seem that things are different this time, as issues seem more widespread or even spreading (as seen with Hector and the Ghost Nation hosts) instead of being limited to certain individuals.
I took the MiB's dramatic entrance as confirmation that he's William. She calls his name, and look who 'answered'. With the apparent revelation that Dolores went nuts and killed humans and hosts...is Dolores actually Wyatt?
The thing that's murkiest is what Ford's really up to. It seems like he's orchestrated most of the events to this point. Maybe his 'new narrative' is about enticing and getting rid of William/MiB? But why? I understand why William might not like Ford if he had Dolores lobotomized after the two of them had their romance. But I feel like we're missing what Ford's personal beef is with William, beyond just business interests. More and more I'm thinking that Teddy's existence is about Ford sticking it to William by giving Dolores a 'boyfriend' and even giving him William's moment with Dolores and the can. But why is it so personal? And is Maeve part of his plan, not part of his plan but a happy accident, or a potential threat to his plan?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/29 17:02:58
I think Dolores will recognise 'Billy' and he will get what he has always wanted, his GF back.
Also is it possible the MIB is actually Logan? It more fits his character, and he might to over the top easily.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Always possible, but I think Logan waking up to find 20 corpses around William points to the MiB being a changed William.
And on that note, I think William may have lost too much of his humanity and goodness to be appealing to Dolores. If Dolores doesn't become the bad guy, that is. The MiB did say that he's the good guy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/29 21:24:37
I'm pretty sure Teddy is Wyatt. The hosts' mind protect them from seeing things that would damage their world view.
My prediction is that Teddy, as the sheriff, was instructed to put down all the defective/sentient Hosts.
That's why there is no Wyatt Host revealed so far. Teddy will eventually snap and become Wyatt. That's why what's her name said he's not ready yet, and shanks him, hoping next time he'll be closer to his Wyatt incarnation
Wyatt might not be implemented yet, that story arc is a work in progress.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
So, I noticed it kinfa stopped past episode two, but what what the point of flies? Flies seemed to play a big part of the show for a bit.
For awhile, i thought the flies where transmitting a computer virus that made hosts go haywire.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So, I noticed it kinfa stopped past episode two, but what what the point of flies? Flies seemed to play a big part of the show for a bit.
A) It was said that the flies are the only thing the company didn't make or put into the park.
B) Hosts are designed to be unable to kill living things. Dolores is asked if she would ever hurt a living thing to which she replies no, then is shown killing a fly indicating that something has changed.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So, I noticed it kinfa stopped past episode two, but what what the point of flies? Flies seemed to play a big part of the show for a bit.
A) It was said that the flies are the only thing the company didn't make or put into the park.
B) Hosts are designed to be unable to kill living things. Dolores is asked if she would ever hurt a living thing to which she replies no, then is shown killing a fly indicating that something has changed.
I think it's not even the act of killing it.
Just before she kills it, she is the first host that seems to be bothered by it. All the other hosts didn't react at all to flies walking on their face or eyes, making it seem like they are just supposed to tolerate living things and not be annoyed by them. The fact that she even was bothered by something living spoke more to me than her reaction to it.
Just before she kills it, she is the first host that seems to be bothered by it.
Didn't one of the hosts have a seizure or some such when a fly landed on him prior to her killing a fly? Or am I getting the times off?
edit: I guess she was bothered by it like a normal person, rather then becoming inoperable, like the older dude.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/02 19:56:41
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
d-usa wrote: All the other hosts didn't react at all to flies walking on their face or eyes, making it seem like they are just supposed to tolerate living things and not be annoyed by them. The fact that she even was bothered by something living spoke more to me than her reaction to it.
I think you've got that a bit backwards. All the hosts were actually bothered by the flies landing on their faces, probably because whatever programming they have to make them behave like a human wants to swat the flies away...but their 'no kill' programming overrides that, so it puts the host in a strange place, in some cases causing the host to freak out (Delores's original dad, for example).
So yeah, Delores being able to kill the fly (or even attempt to do so, which is what a swat is) was a big deal showing that she had definitely changed from her standard 'no kill' programming.
I don't even think they recognized the flies as a nuisance, let alone being bothered by them.
They had lots of non-lethal options of dealing with them, they could have twitches, they could have swatted them away, they could have shaken their heads.
But while their programming let them punch humans and shoot them, only to realize they wouldn't die, it didn't even seem to let them recognize a fly as enough of a nuisance to blink when it walks across their eyeball.
Look at it this way. If the programing is hardset a group of hosts will be interrupted in their travels if ants cross their path as walking on the ants might cause casualties. Ants may well be below the parameters set for killing fo that reason.
Secondly people swat flies as part of daily routine, they could shoo them away, but they also swat them. Swatting a fly that lands on your face deepens immersion.
Third animal rights do not normally apply to flies, it makes sense that an animal friendly AI might not extend that low for cultural reasons. Even hardcore vegans today oftimes still use extermination products for lower order animals. i.e. use anti-baterial agents through to fly spray but not rat poison.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Well, there might not be any ants in there. The question she was asked "have you ever killed a living thing", which she denied. And then she killed the fly.
gorgon wrote: Yeah, the whole point there was that 1) she can kill, and 2) she can lie.
Evidently, but there is wiggle room for a red herring.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote: Well, there might not be any ants in there. The question she was asked "have you ever killed a living thing", which she denied. And then she killed the fly.
Very unlikely that the park is ant free unless ants are somehow extinct and will have ant equivalent creatures that hosts might detect and yet casually crush anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/03 22:03:52
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
You seem to be conflating fiction and documentary. They have specifically mentioned flies thus they are part of the narrative. Chekhov's Gun and all that.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I am really liking forward to the final episode of the series. I thought that episode nine brought together a lot of threads but there are still a lot of questions to be answered.
Spoiler:
Why did Delores kill Arnold?
Did she kill Arnold or is it an implanted memory/ cornerstone from Ford?
What is Ford's new narrative/planned celebration?
How will he explain Bernard's death?
The whole Wyatt/Teddy/Man in Black thing?
What is Maeve's plan?
And the biggest issue of all...
Will that terrible acting Brit meet an appropriately grizzly end?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/03 23:02:29
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
