Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Sarigar wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:
I have to admit I'm pretty annoyed that the book is so tame upon release. And by tame I mean in comparison to other 9th releases. Why should it be that Drukhari, AdMech, Tau, Custodes, etc all have broken good codexes upon release, then get to enjoy months of dominance before being brought "back in line," but we don't get that same glowing honeymoon period? I get that it's "better for the game" but come one, it's like a serious wet blanket in terms of that excitement level you're looking for when you finally get a new codex.

This book has a lot to unpack. It does not have the obvious standouts like Custodes, those tend to,get reigned in. Craftworld, Craftworld/Harlequin, Harlequin, Ynarri, and Drukhari/Harlequin are all army builds from this codex. There is some Harlequin craziness that is starting to emerge. Let a few 2+ day events transpire and see what lists emerge.

I definitely feel like I will get more mileage playing this book over the next several years as opposed to my Custodes codex. YMMV.

As a pure CWE player sadly no...

 Leth wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
You do have to have shot in order to Battle Focus. "In your Shooting phase, After this unit has finished making its attacks..."

Just because you don't shoot doesn't mean that you don't have a shooting phase. Every Army has to go through every phase each turn. It's just a convention to skip a phase that isn't used. So, you don't need to shoot before you use battle focus.

The rules say if you have no eligible targets for your weapons you are not eligible to activate. You have to activate to be able to battle focus.

I'm not sure what you are saying. If the unit is on the board it "activates". If you are saying that if you don't have a legal target then you don't get a shooting phase then you are doing things backwards. First you get a shooting phase. Then you determine if you have a legal target for any of your ranged weapons. If yes, then shoot. If no, then you get no attacks so you are finished making your ranged attacks for that unit. Being finished making your attacks means that you can now use Battle Focus.

P.S. I'm pretty sure that the rules state that if you have no eligible targets then you don't get to take a (shooting) action. There's a big difference between an activation and an action.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


I'm not sure what you are saying. If the unit is on the board it "activates". If you are saying that if you don't have a legal target then you don't get a shooting phase then you are doing things backwards. First you get a shooting phase. Then you determine if you have a legal target for any of your ranged weapons. If yes, then shoot. If no, then you get no attacks so you are finished making your ranged attacks for that unit. Being finished making your attacks means that you can now use Battle Focus.

P.S. I'm pretty sure that the rules state that if you have no eligible targets then you don't get to take a (shooting) action. There's a big difference between an activation and an action.

Are you trying to argue that units that didn't shoot at anything can still make a Battle Focus move in the shooting phase? It's rather obvious that this isn't the case. If a unit doesn't shoot, it can't make a Battle Focus move.

 Sarigar wrote:
This book has a lot to unpack. It does not have the obvious standouts like Custodes, those tend to,get reigned in. Craftworld, Craftworld/Harlequin, Harlequin, Ynarri, and Drukhari/Harlequin are all army builds from this codex. There is some Harlequin craziness that is starting to emerge. Let a few 2+ day events transpire and see what lists emerge.

I definitely feel like I will get more mileage playing this book over the next several years as opposed to my Custodes codex. YMMV.

The detachment rules are pretty darn wordy, I've reread them a few times and I'm still not certain if taking a Harlequin's detachments breaks any monofaction bonuses for CWE or Ynnari.

 Nalim wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


I'm not sure what you are saying. If the unit is on the board it "activates". If you are saying that if you don't have a legal target then you don't get a shooting phase then you are doing things backwards. First you get a shooting phase. Then you determine if you have a legal target for any of your ranged weapons. If yes, then shoot. If no, then you get no attacks so you are finished making your ranged attacks for that unit. Being finished making your attacks means that you can now use Battle Focus.

P.S. I'm pretty sure that the rules state that if you have no eligible targets then you don't get to take a (shooting) action. There's a big difference between an activation and an action.

Are you trying to argue that units that didn't shoot at anything can still make a Battle Focus move in the shooting phase? It's rather obvious that this isn't the case. If a unit doesn't shoot, it can't make a Battle Focus move.

It certainly does allow for it. If you make zero attacks you're still at the end of the shooting phase. Being finished with all of your shooting attacks is all that is required to trigger battle focus. I don't see how it can be any other way.

Let me ask this- You never have to make an attack correct? But you are saying that if you decide you don't want to make an attack then you can't use Battle Focus. There is no difference between opting to not make an attack and making zero attacks. Legal targeting has nothing to do with Battle Focus. All that is required is that you finish making whatever ranged attack(s) with that unit, then Battle Focus triggers. So no shooting after you make your Battle Focus move with that unit.

Correct, You finish making all your shooting attacks and then you can move D6 inches. You do not need to have a shooting target.

I'm not super familiar with the core rulebook but is there anything preventing me from going vanguard detachment with an Avatar, 6 wraithlords and 2 Wraithseers?

 Rogzor87 wrote:
I'm not super familiar with the core rulebook but is there anything preventing me from going vanguard detachment with an Avatar, 6 wraithlords and 2 Wraithseers?

Please consider the rule of 3.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
This book has a lot to unpack. It does not have the obvious standouts like Custodes, those tend to,get reigned in. Craftworld, Craftworld/Harlequin, Harlequin, Ynarri, and Drukhari/Harlequin are all army builds from this codex. There is some Harlequin craziness that is starting to emerge. Let a few 2+ day events transpire and see what lists emerge.

I definitely feel like I will get more mileage playing this book over the next several years as opposed to my Custodes codex. YMMV.

The detachment rules are pretty darn wordy, I've reread them a few times and I'm still not certain if taking a Harlequin's detachments breaks any monofaction bonuses for CWE or Ynnari.

It is in theTraveling Players rule. Definitely able to add a Harlequin Patrol to a Asuryani or Drukhari army.

 Sarigar wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
This book has a lot to unpack. It does not have the obvious standouts like Custodes, those tend to,get reigned in. Craftworld, Craftworld/Harlequin, Harlequin, Ynarri, and Drukhari/Harlequin are all army builds from this codex. There is some Harlequin craziness that is starting to emerge. Let a few 2+ day events transpire and see what lists emerge.

I definitely feel like I will get more mileage playing this book over the next several years as opposed to my Custodes codex. YMMV.

The detachment rules are pretty darn wordy, I've reread them a few times and I'm still not certain if taking a Harlequin's detachments breaks any monofaction bonuses for CWE or Ynnari.

It is in theTraveling Players rule. Definitely able to add a Harlequin Patrol to a Asuryani or Drukhari army.

But the harly det doens get any harley army trait rules correct ?

 wuestenfux wrote:

Please consider the rule of 3.

What is that?

 Argive wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
This book has a lot to unpack. It does not have the obvious standouts like Custodes, those tend to,get reigned in. Craftworld, Craftworld/Harlequin, Harlequin, Ynarri, and Drukhari/Harlequin are all army builds from this codex. There is some Harlequin craziness that is starting to emerge. Let a few 2+ day events transpire and see what lists emerge.

I definitely feel like I will get more mileage playing this book over the next several years as opposed to my Custodes codex. YMMV.

The detachment rules are pretty darn wordy, I've reread them a few times and I'm still not certain if taking a Harlequin's detachments breaks any monofaction bonuses for CWE or Ynnari.

It is in theTraveling Players rule. Definitely able to add a Harlequin Patrol to a Asuryani or Drukhari army.

But the harly det doens get any harley army trait rules correct ?

The Harlequins don't get Luck of the Laughing God (free rerolls) and can't choose Harlequin secondary objectives. They get the Sandesh (Light, Dark, Twilight).

 Rogzor87 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Please consider the rule of 3.

What is that?

Matched play rules. Only 3 of the same data sheet can be used

Played my second game today vs Goff Orks.

I played Biel Tan and did borrow the idea from Art of War video to try 5 Windriders with Scatterlasers.

The bucket loads of dice I had to roll....

56 shots vs 20 Beastsnagga Boyz (7 Warp Spiders, Exarch with 2 Deathspinners and Surprise Assault)

40 Shots from Swooping Hawks

30 Shots from Dire Avengers

Any type of reroll mechanic and/or exploding 6's really compounds the amount of damage.

Hawks, Spiders, Avengers, and Karandaras are all units I expect to see in a lot of lists.

Not overly sold on the Falcon. Second game now I did not get a Strands of Fate dice for a charge on turn 1.

A Horner with 2 Brightlances was pretty good with Biel Tan (reroll one to hit roll).

Maugan Ra, while I love the new model, was just ok compared to the rest of the shooting and assault.

We called the game on the bottom of turn 2. Definitely something I had not encountered with the previous codex.

 Sarigar wrote:
Played my second game today vs Goff Orks.

I played Biel Tan and did borrow the idea from Art of War video to try 5 Windriders with Scatterlasers.

The bucket loads of dice I had to roll....

56 shots vs 20 Beastsnagga Boyz (7 Warp Spiders, Exarch with 2 Deathspinners and Surprise Assault)

40 Shots from Swooping Hawks

30 Shots from Dire Avengers

Any type of reroll mechanic and/or exploding 6's really compounds the amount of damage.

Hawks, Spiders, Avengers, and Karandaras are all units I expect to see in a lot of lists.

Not overly sold on the Falcon. Second game now I did not get a Strands of Fate dice for a charge on turn 1.

A Horner with 2 Brightlances was pretty good with Biel Tan (reroll one to hit roll).

Maugan Ra, while I love the new model, was just ok compared to the rest of the shooting and assault.

We called the game on the bottom of turn 2. Definitely something I had not encountered with the previous codex.

Sounds like he had a tough match up!

The game was really over on turn 1. Killrigs are so large that my opponent did not try to keep them out of LOS. Additionally, my opponent did not do a very good job keeping the other units out of LOS in the event I had turn 1. On turn 1, a Killrig, Trukk, 10 Nobs, and 10 Beastsnagga Boyz were destroyed. Turn 2, a Warboss, 5 Meganobz, 30 Beastsnagga Boyz were destroyed, and the second Killrig was down to 2 wounds. That was pretty much game.

The units, IMO, look deceptively tame. On the table, the amount of dice is staggering.

Going through the Harlequins, I think Voidweavers will become a top contender to get a points Increase. Saedeth of Light is going to catch folks off guard. Models can only be hit on 4+ if over 12". Starweavers, Skyweavers, and Voidweavers also have a -1 to be hit and no rerolls can be made...this feels like a workaround to not being able to have massed to hit modifiers from 8th edition as these models now can only be hit on a 5+. And then, they still have a 4++.

A unit of three Voidweavers put out 18 Shuriken Cannon shots, 6 Focused Prism Cannon shots or 9d3 Dispersed Shots. At 90 points per model, I'm waiting for these to show up at tourneys in short order.

Some interesting reading.
I don't get any of the negativity surrounding the book, it's really, really strong. Craftworlds just hit so strongly with crazy mobility and tricks.
Swooping hawks ability to deepstrike, effectively, every time after shooting is crazy, using them to screen/threaten when they can just jump out 14" to get their shots off and then go wherever they want makes them really quite frustrating to deal with.
Night spinners are so strong for similar reasons but they don't even have to move. CTM is pretty much essential for our vehicles, especially with things like harlequins and their native -1 to hit. Guaranteeing that you always hit on BS makes them so much more efficient, especially since re-rolls are hard to come by for vehicles.
Dire avengers are amazing, I think three units in strategic reserve works brilliantly since they can just sneak onto the table turns two and three and they will give whatever they shoot into a really bad time. For 360 pts and 2CP they give a massive beta strike potential. Like all shuriken units they are very buffable, whether from the hail of doom trait, the usual guide doom combo, the normal exploding 6's shuriken strat or even the biel tan aspect strat for additional exploding 6's. Guided Biel tan units with the two exploding 6's strats (2CP) generate 42 hits. Guided Hail of doom plus the 1 CP strat for exploding 6's gives us 25 hits plus 9 auto wounds at AP4. The above numbers assume fishing for sixes, so re-rolling non 6's on the first shot. Very impressive numbers for 120 pts.
Focus will is a really underrated gem, Let's go Biel tan for this, one Farseer with Guide and Focus will plus another with Executioner, Will of Asuryan plus Doom from the Spirit stone Anathlan. The first Farseer casting Focus will on the other for that sweet +2 to cast making all three of his powers much more reliable (assuming you spend 1CP on Unparalleled mastery). Ulthwe is also great for the additional +1 on their first cast, so potentially a +3 making Doom go off on a 4 or super smites much more reliable. We can generate a lot of mortals, especially in the psychic phase which could prove extremely beneficial to help popping Harlequin transports since they resist shooting so well. A single Biel Tan Farseer with, say, Guide, Doom and Focus will, casting focus on himself is probably the best way if you want to only run one Farseer.

I can't write a list, that looks competetively strongest, that doesn't include two Farseers three spinners with CTM (usually my To the last targets), three squads of ten Avengers for reserving and two squads of eight Hawks (keeping them below the 150pts of my spinners). Catapult or scatter laser windriders usually make an appearance too.
Spinners, Hawks and potentially wind riders just output a lot of unreturnable fire on turns one and two, forcing the opponent to usually move out if they aren't pushing up anyway, which leaves stuff out for the Avengers to come in turns two and three to murder stuff in the name of Khaine!
Just a few observations, but fear not fellow Autarch's, we've got the chops to compete with the very best the game can throw at us.

 Sarigar wrote:

Starweavers, Skyweavers, and Voidweavers... ...these models now can only be hit on a 5+.

What do you mean? If a model has BS 3+ or better, it will shoot at -1 to hit and will hit them on 4+. If a model has BS 4+, it will get -1 to hit and will hit them on 5+.

Twilight Pathways wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

Starweavers, Skyweavers, and Voidweavers... ...these models now can only be hit on a 5+.

What do you mean? If a model has BS 3+ or better, it will shoot at -1 to hit and will hit them on 4+. If a model has BS 4+, it will get -1 to hit and will hit them on 5+.

Crystal targeting matrix's for the win.

Twilight Pathways wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

Starweavers, Skyweavers, and Voidweavers... ...these models now can only be hit on a 5+.

What do you mean? If a model has BS 3+ or better, it will shoot at -1 to hit and will hit them on 4+. If a model has BS 4+, it will get -1 to hit and will hit them on 5+.

You are correct. Thank you for bringing I to my attention. I misunderstood how that rule works. BS 2 and BS 3 ultimately need a 4+ and BS 4 needs a 5+ after dice rolls and modifiers applied. As a result, 50% of shots will hit for BS2 and BS3 with no reroll. Not quite as good as I initially read (and misunderstood), but I'll stand by my opinion this will be a big unit to watch out for in tourney play, listen to salt, and get nerfed.

Figures the hawks being awesome are failcast... thats the one aspect I dont own as i dont trust the stability of those model in metal one bit

 Argive wrote:
Figures the hawks being awesome are failcast... thats the one aspect I dont own as i dont trust the stability of those model in metal one bit

I purchased Ghost Minis version of Swooping Hawks and the quality was fantastic. I liked the aesthetic of the model, but note I cannot bring them to the US GT Tourneys GW runs (I'm only attending one, so if I opt for Hawks, I'll likely scoure ebay for metal as I also do not care for failcast).

 Sarigar wrote:

The Harlequins don't get Luck of the Laughing God (free rerolls) and can't choose Harlequin secondary objectives. They get the Sandesh (Light, Dark, Twilight).

Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up!

Hmm is noone digging the wraithlord at all? 140 for 2bright lances off of a mobile t8 body with -1dam. With ulthwe you’ll be tanking strand invulns on top. Could be something like 2 Shuriken kanons too at 120. They are Core so spells help Them and rerolls arr easier. .

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


Let me ask this- You never have to make an attack correct? But you are saying that if you decide you don't want to make an attack then you can't use Battle Focus. There is no difference between opting to not make an attack and making zero attacks. Legal targeting has nothing to do with Battle Focus. All that is required is that you finish making whatever ranged attack(s) with that unit, then Battle Focus triggers. So no shooting after you make your Battle Focus move with that unit.

Sorry, I misread the rules text. It says "after this unit has finished making its attacks". I thought it said "after this unit has made a shooting attack".

Scoundrel80 wrote:
Hmm is noone digging the wraithlord at all? 140 for 2bright lances off of a mobile t8 body with -1dam. With ulthwe you’ll be tanking strand invulns on top. Could be something like 2 Shuriken kanons too at 120. They are Core so spells help Them and rerolls arr easier. .

Wraithlords are core ? Missed that.. Assumed they wouldn't be and wasnt looking for it.
Ulthwe wraith lords with reaper autarch support sound nice backline pew pew with a wraithseer bieltan also. and teras of isha sounds like mean strat now

So I played my buddy today, and pretty much called it about turn 2. I went 1st and dealt a pretty crippling blow against my friend's Grey Knights. I fanned out and was on 2 objectives, almost 3. By the end of the 1st turn I had 2 units doing RND, had maxed Wrath of Khaine, and Engage. My Banshees disembarked from their Wave Serpent, got Guide cast on them, and were able to get a first turn charge against a 5 man terminator squad thanks to a fate die, also spiked high with Wrath of the Shrines and blended them. I was able to take out a 5 man strike squad with various ranged attacks before they could do anything. The Banshees got smashed almost off of the table by a Librarian and Apothecary, but the exarch and 1 Banshee remained. Dire Avengers got wiped, but at that point they had done their damage and we had already called the game and were just playing for fun. This is what I ran

Biel-Tan
Patrol Detachment

Farseer Skyrunner
Natural Leader, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan Singing Spear
Guide, Doom, Will of Asuryan

5 Rangers

10 Dire Avengers
Exarch: 2x Dire Avenger Catapults

10 Howling Banshees
Exarch: Mirror Swords

5 Swooping Hawks

Night Spinner
Shuriken Cannon

Night Spinner
Shuriken Cannon

Wave Serpent
Twin Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

 Argive wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
Hmm is noone digging the wraithlord at all? 140 for 2bright lances off of a mobile t8 body with -1dam. With ulthwe you’ll be tanking strand invulns on top. Could be something like 2 Shuriken kanons too at 120. They are Core so spells help Them and rerolls arr easier. .

Wraithlords are core ? Missed that.. Assumed they wouldn't be and wasnt looking for it.
Ulthwe wraith lords with reaper autarch support sound nice backline pew pew with a wraithseer bieltan also. and teras of isha sounds like mean strat now

I am going to try one for my next game. With "Core" keyword, it opens up to having Fortune cast on it. I would like for it to be a reasonable model as I just like the aesthetic of it. Running with 2 Brightlances and the Wraithsword and see how it pans out.

My Wraithlords are modeled with AML but those seem pretty underwhelming compared to bright lances or shuriken cannons (with hail of doom). I may have to remount some shoulder weapons in the future.

An Ulthwe Wraithlord with Fortune might live long enough to make it into Melee.

I've been considering adding a Wraithlord or two to my Hail of Doom/Webway Warriors list for some added durability but I do encounter the issue of not having enough CP if I have to take a Vanguard detachment over a double patrol.