Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Leth wrote:I played two games of 40k that had necrons with ork allies. Both were bike based contingents. I won both, however in the second game the nob bikers unit with warboss against chaos demons was really REALLY good. They just ate through anything that landed I was thinking of upgrading everyone to having big choppas with one of them having a claw. With the wagghh banner it was just the number of attacks was staggering. With cybork body and FNP the unit took two wounds all game.

Also took Dakkajet in both games and it has maintained a 1:1 kill ratio so far. One round of shooting one dead whatever(usually vehicles or MCs)

Something I realized during my games, was that big choppas aren't that important to crack vehicles anymore. Since nobz hit vehicles on a 3+ now, I often had the doc and two sacrificial nobz glance a vehicle to death before I even rolled for the big choppas. So I'm not sure whether they are worth their points anymore.

mrfantastical wrote:So what does everyone feel about Defkopta's (specifically 5 with Kustom Mega Blastas)?

Every turn you should get at least 1 hit, and with Ap2 being the magical +1 to vehicle damage rolls they are looking like some of the best range vehicle killers in our book.

Was thinking of running this list:

Spoiler:

Sonz of Anarchy
HQ - 320
Wazdakka Gutsmek (180)

Warboss (140)
power klaw; warbike; cybork body; bosspole.

Troops - 815
5 Warbikers (165)
Nob (power klaw; bosspole).

5 Warbikers (165)
Nob (power klaw; bosspole).

5 Warbikers (165)
Nob (power klaw; bosspole).

4 Nobz (320)
Painboy; 3× power klaw; 3× slugga; Waaagh! banner; warbikes; cybork bodies.

Fast Attack - 400
5 Deffkoptas (200)
5× Kustom Mega-Blasta.

5 Deffkoptas (200)
5× Kustom Mega-Blasta.

Heavy Support - 465
3 Big Gunz (78)
6× additional Grot Krew.

3 Big Gunz (78)
6× additional Grot Krew.

3 Big Gunz (78)
6× additional Grot Krew.

3 Big Gunz (78)
6× additional Grot Krew.

3 Big Gunz (78)
6× additional Grot Krew.

3 Big Gunz (75)
5× additional Grot Krew.

2,000 points

Rokkits on koptaz are twin-linked, KMB are not. Without doing the math, hitting 33% more often should offset +1 to the damage table.

But would it also offset the ingoring of Termie armour?


Deffkoptas are, in my oppinion, one of the most underrated units in the Kodex, in the last edition and this one. They have 2 Wounds, higher Toughness, and enough options to Shenaniganize (for 5th, that is) including a Powerklaw, anti-infantry, anti-tank and anti-Termie options, and a bomb. They're very fast, and can be taken in decent sized units, and they have Hit and Run and Scout, plus Choppa and Slugga, meaning they have an extra attack.

They're essentially a faster, lighter and cheaper Nob Biker squad.

Yup, and they still have crap LD and no boss pole. I own 30 deff koptaz and have tried about anything with them, including the "I'm crashing 30 ork koptaz into your baneblade"-formation.

They do awesome until your opponent finds out that a tank shock will make them fall back 3d6 roughly 40% of the time. And then there's all those new ld-based curses from the psychic tables. At least they can't get pinned anymore.

Anvildude wrote:But would it also offset the ingoring of Termie armour?

Ehh I agree that rokkits is where its at. When it comes to termies, just swarm them will bullets and they'll go down

So what does everyone feel about Defkopta's (specifically 5 with Kustom Mega Blastas)?

Every turn you should get at least 1 hit, and with Ap2 being the magical +1 to vehicle damage rolls they are looking like some of the best range vehicle killers in our book.

Rokkits on koptaz are twin-linked, KMB are not. Without doing the math, hitting 33% more often should offset +1 to the damage table.

Indeed, the twin-linked does more or less offset the +1 to the damage table from the KMB:

TL Rokkit Launcha
AV.......Hull Points.......Chance to Wreck
14..............0.09.........................0.00
13..............0.19.........................0.02
12..............0.28.........................0.03
11..............0.37.........................0.05
10..............0.46.........................0.06

Kustom Mega Blasta
AV.......Hull Points.......Chance to Wreck
14..............0.06.........................0.00
13..............0.11.........................0.02
12..............0.17.........................0.04
11..............0.22.........................0.06
10..............0.28.........................0.07

You can see the KMB has a slightly (and I mean slightly) higher chance to wreck but the TL rokkit launcha takes more hull points.

Against infantry they shape up as follows....

TL Rokkit launcha:
Versus.......Chance to Wound
MEQ........................0.462
Teminator..............0.077

KMB:
Versus.......Chance to Wound
MEQ........................0.294
Teminator..............0.185

So there's not much to choose between them except... oh yeah, rokkits don't get hot.

I'm surprised that no one is arguing that the KMB's "Get's Hot" rule should offset this even further...

Jidmah wrote:

Dr. What wrote:Well, since Weirdboys have been brought up, what does everybody think about Old Zogwort?

He is as awesome as ever, plus (unlike regular warpheads) no one would dare to challenge him in close combat. The trukkload of I4 attacks wounding on 2+ he dishes out is trouble to anything not wearing MA or TDA


|

Why... 'cuz his squig'ith curse?

I never planned to swap my kopta's rokkits for a kmb, but what about meks? I have 12 burnas and 3 meks to ride around in a BW, taking twin-link out of the equation, does kmb gain any ground?

whembly wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Dr. What wrote:Well, since Weirdboys have been brought up, what does everybody think about Old Zogwort?

He is as awesome as ever, plus (unlike regular warpheads) no one would dare to challenge him in close combat. The trukkload of I4 attacks wounding on 2+ he dishes out is trouble to anything not wearing MA or TDA


|

Why... 'cuz his squig'ith curse?

In CC he still has to roll for his powers, but half of them get replaced with making his attacks power weapons. (Ead banger, frazzle,zzapp), which means he as an I 4 power weapon that wounds on 2+ for his snakes, and the same at lower I for his regular attacks. He can be pretty deadly if he manages to live live enough to use them.

Back before the power weapon rewrite there were times he'd take down a whole (small) unit or a potent character that struck at lower inititive (due to powerfist/Thammer usually) before getting gacked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

katfude wrote:I never planned to swap my kopta's rokkits for a kmb, but what about meks? I have 12 burnas and 3 meks to ride around in a BW, taking twin-link out of the equation, does kmb gain any ground?

Kopta KMB aren't twin linked :( If they were they might be worth it, maybe..

KMB were so-so in 5th, and IMO worse in 6th. They deliver quite a punch, but so does a rokkit, without killing you or glancing your own vehicles down. The only benefit would be the AP 2, but it hink someone figured out that you stand a better chance of killing yourself than the terminator you aimed at

I use them occasionally, and sometimes it's even been worth it, but i prefer the rokkits.

skyfi wrote:Considering running normal nobs and a megaboss up front to use 2+ for whole squad, and let big mek provide BP for MANZ..

Just remember that once you allocate a wound to the MA Warboss you cannot use your 2+ LoSir roll to reallocate it after you fail the save. So you're not really giving a 2+ save to the whole squad.

Orkaswampa wrote:
If i've missed anything let me know But frankly i think this is between Speed / Endurance (MANZ being endurance).

You forgot that, as of now, MANz are not characters. Sure it may change in the future, but as of right now that's a pretty big deal. You also forgot that Nobz have access to WAAAGH! banners to give them +1 WS, whereas MANz do not.

I think both have their uses, and a lot of what you do will depend on how the rest of your army will perform. 4 MANz are 160 points. Toss in a battlewagon (RPJ, BS, Reinforced Ram, Grabba Klaw for plucking flyers out of the sky) and you're talking 270 points. I don't have the codex with me but I think that's the total point cost. In contrast that will get you something like 4 Nob Bikers without any Power Klaws or fun accessories. The bottom line here is that a usable squad of MANz will fit inside a larger force, whereas if you use Nob Bikers you will pretty much be dictating the rest of the army around them. It's neither a pro nor a con, just a difference that needs to be taken into account.

I believe the NOVA Open will go a long ways toward giving us a sense of what does and doesn't work with Orks (and many other armies). I'll be there as a scoring monkey and I'll be sure to keep an eye on what compositions do well.

True i forgot about Waagh Banner and i cant believe MANZ aren't characters :(

Anyways yes we shall see what happens! Thanks for the enlightenment

Kustom Mega Blastas are AMAZING, and even more crucial considering the impending popularity of 2+ save units. That ap2 is really, really great for targeting tougher infantry. I've made Obliterators disintegrate, and dented Paladins more so than I've ever done with any other weapon and/or assault.

The issue isn't really with the weapon itself, it's more what you equip them to.

Kopta's are best with Rokkits, I can't deny. Kanz are the best codex platform, arguably, but with their quantity of 3 shots, Grotzookas and Rokkits likely suit them better.

Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.

Personally, (and unsurprisingly, since I seem to keep bringing them up... apologies ) Grot Tanks are the best platform. Tossing out 5 shots (if you get the kommanda upgrade) at bs3 is fantastic, and a notable upgrade to ap3 - I've always loved having them on the table. If they suffer the glancing hit from Gets Hot, they at least have the 5+ invul to attempt to negate it.

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:

skyfi wrote:Considering running normal nobs and a megaboss up front to use 2+ for whole squad, and let big mek provide BP for MANZ..

Just remember that once you allocate a wound to the MA Warboss you cannot use your 2+ LoSir roll to reallocate it after you fail the save. So you're not really giving a 2+ save to the whole squad.

Orkaswampa wrote:
If i've missed anything let me know But frankly i think this is between Speed / Endurance (MANZ being endurance).

You forgot that, as of now, MANz are not characters. Sure it may change in the future, but as of right now that's a pretty big deal. You also forgot that Nobz have access to WAAAGH! banners to give them +1 WS, whereas MANz do not.

I think both have their uses, and a lot of what you do will depend on how the rest of your army will perform. 4 MANz are 160 points. Toss in a battlewagon (RPJ, BS, Reinforced Ram, Grabba Klaw for plucking flyers out of the sky) and you're talking 270 points. I don't have the codex with me but I think that's the total point cost. In contrast that will get you something like 4 Nob Bikers without any Power Klaws or fun accessories. The bottom line here is that a usable squad of MANz will fit inside a larger force, whereas if you use Nob Bikers you will pretty much be dictating the rest of the army around them. It's neither a pro nor a con, just a difference that needs to be taken into account.

I believe the NOVA Open will go a long ways toward giving us a sense of what does and doesn't work with Orks (and many other armies). I'll be there as a scoring monkey and I'll be sure to keep an eye on what compositions do well.

what I meant was that by positioning him up front, and letting him "soak up" all the fire with his 2+/FNP and taking the wounds when he does fail, as opposed to probably losing a nob or 2 per turn to small arms fire etc.


I run nob bikers and MANZ. MANZ have much more survivability from low str shots, but bikes are going to survive those S8 blasts/lascannons etc. They are just different units, I'm not going to argue which is better/has more utility but I think they each have their place, even alongside one another in the same list, possibly.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kharrak wrote:Kustom Mega Blastas are AMAZING, and even more crucial considering the impending popularity of 2+ save units.

The issue isn't really with the weapon itself, it's more what you equip them to.

Kopta's are best with Rokkits, I can't deny. Kanz are the best platform, arguably, but with their quantity of 3 shots, Grotzookas and Rokkits likely suit them better.

Personally, (and unsurprisingly, since I seem to keep bringing them up... apologies ) Grot Tanks are the best platform. Tossing out 5 shots (if you get the kommanda upgrade) at bs3 is fantastic, and a notable upgrade to ap3 - I've always loved having them on the table. If they suffer the glancing hit from Gets Hot, they at least have the 5+ invul to attempt to negate it.

Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.

grot tanks are FW correct? I nearly bought some last week to use as count as buggies because they are so cool... but was unsure if I could run them as grot tanks in any tourneys... hell none of my friends even have FW models so feel like it wouldn't be fair there either!

skyfi wrote:grot tanks are FW correct? I nearly bought some last week to use as count as buggies because they are so cool... but was unsure if I could run them as grot tanks in any tourneys... hell none of my friends even have FW models so feel like it wouldn't be fair there either!

Yup - thus my apologies for constantly bringing up a unit most will never even see

In my experience, rule of cool generally overules most things - they just look fantastic. All tourneys I've been in have happily allowed them, but I know there are one or two that have no FW models at all. They aren't overpowered at all - they offer the same weapons as kanz, are only AV10, and have unpredictable (and potentially lethal!) movement. Overall, it's their ability to provide quantity of shots for Kan weapons that makes them shine.

Kharrak wrote:Kustom Mega Blastas are AMAZING, and even more crucial considering the impending popularity of 2+ save units. That ap2 is really, really great for targeting tougher infantry. I've made Obliterators disintegrate, and dented Paladins more so than I've ever done with any other weapon and/or assault.

The issue isn't really with the weapon itself, it's more what you equip them to.

Kopta's are best with Rokkits, I can't deny. Kanz are the best codex platform, arguably, but with their quantity of 3 shots, Grotzookas and Rokkits likely suit them better.

Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.

Personally, (and unsurprisingly, since I seem to keep bringing them up... apologies ) Grot Tanks are the best platform. Tossing out 5 shots (if you get the kommanda upgrade) at bs3 is fantastic, and a notable upgrade to ap3 - I've always loved having them on the table. If they suffer the glancing hit from Gets Hot, they at least have the 5+ invul to attempt to negate it.

Have you ever run into any issue playing with Grot Tanks? Just seems like when you bring up forgeworld anything to an opponent they act skiddish.

mrfantastical wrote:Have you ever run into any issue playing with Grot Tanks? Just seems like when you bring up forgeworld anything to an opponent they act skiddish.

Once. Person said they were OP, because they popped his Rhinos and gibbed his two units of Oblits in a single salvo each.

This was, however, a player who, on his first turn, drove up two rhinos (filled with normal CSMs), and jumped two Daemon Princes right in front of my entire Ork army (within 12", can you believe it), left them there, and then accused me of having an OP army when I proceeded to table him by turn 3.

Past that, people have been far too charmed to complain

grot tanks are awfully charmin lil gits.

skyfi wrote:MANZ have much more survivability from low str shots, but bikes are going to survive those S8 blasts/lascannons etc.

I'm not actually sure about the former... let's crunch some numbaz.

Str4 (very common in shooting and assault):

Chance of wounding a meganob = 0.5 x 0.166 = 0.083

Chance of wounding a biker nob (assuming FnP) = 0.333 x 0.5 x 0.666 = 0.111

Ah, you're right, though it's not that much (tested against just about all strengths, 2+ > 4+&5+). The constant cover save and FnP is better though. Meganobs can't run either, which leaves them high and dry if their transport gets nuked.

Meganobs can dish pain, but their need more support, which is of course where I am lacking in my army.

"much more" may be debatable lol!

but I think the 2+ comes out on top more often than not, and IF someone takes the mad doc in the mega nob squad... 2+/5++ ... just cant do anything tactical until the dok dies..

Orbital bombardments, vindicators etc I don't know str #'s off top of head but I fear these will insta gib MANZ, while bikers won't be insta killed, but will only have a 4+/5+ save and possibly only 5+ depending on if its an AP4 blast? Seems like against blasts like that unless they are ap2, manz will be in a good position as they are not relying on a 4+ cover save that can be denied.

Not knocking nob bikers, I have more of them than MANZ,

I just think they both serve very different roles.. I try to take my manz to enemy deployment and sit on obj till end of game getting linebreaker and +3 for obj, while bikers are free to grab another hard to reach one, lay down krumpin, or draw a god awful amount of fire.

MANZ aint ever gonna rush halfway across field and save the day, ever. but at the same time they can go to ground if hit by ap2, and if inside ruins thats a 3+ save and not so bad... Also have to keep your warboss or an HQ with them to keep them in line

nob bikers are great and all, but I worry how long they can obj camp if need be without dying/running. I feel like I get unlucky on my 4+/5+ rolling under a lot more often than failing my 2+ on manz. I guess it really matters how many go-to-ground-cover-denying ap2 large blasts one will face?

Kharrak wrote:

Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.

.16*.5=.08

.33*.83*.66=.18
.33*.83*.33=..09

Just as much chance to suffer a wound on a Deffkopta as you have to cause a wound to a TH/SS Terminator.

I was looking at big choppas as a cost vrs return situation. As well as the potential for turn two combats(or heavy forbid getting charged)

Giving up 1 attack to wound on twos for 5 points would be bad on models with fewer attacks, but having three as a default Against Marines. Also for 5 points you increase the range of results that hurt a vehicle by 2. So it decreases output by 25% but increases results by a much greater margin against vehicles.

Also IDing T3 with changes to FNP might be the difference between getting out of a mob of tyranids or not.

MANz rokkits could actually be quite dangerous... Especially for their low points...

Add grotsnik in one, so you can buy cybork in the units you feel need it, and on the plus side, the dok might actually reach the unit he's chasing...

Like all manz rokkits, just drive as fast as possible towards your enemy, and hope the trukk's special damage table brings you (bouncing or not) even closer to the enemy when it's shot to pieces..

A question: what type of powerweapons do burnas count as in CC? What type does the warphead 1-3 count as?

Hoping not to jinx anything, but with the latest nerfs that headed our way (koptas, kommandos, trukkaboys etc) I wouldn't be surprised if they were faq:ed as axes, or anything that's ap4 or worse in CC...

//Calle

TedNugent wrote:

Kharrak wrote:

Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.

.16*.5=.08

.33*.83*.66=.18
.33*.83*.33=..09

Just as much chance to suffer a wound on a Deffkopta as you have to cause a wound to a TH/SS Terminator.

Ah, was the comparison for Deffkoptas explicitly? In this case, when a Deffkopta fires at a TH/SS termie, yes, the chance of hurting (but not necessarily killing oneself) is just below killing the termie. One is falling into a trap here - why would one be firing ap weapons at TH/SS termies? Boyz hapilly deal with them without much issue. That ap2 should be directed towards Oblitorators, 2+ save MC's, Paladins, etc.

Jag_Calle wrote:MANz rokkits could actually be quite dangerous... Especially for their low points...

Add grotsnik in one, so you can buy cybork in the units you feel need it, and on the plus side, the dok might actually reach the unit he's chasing...

Like all manz rokkits, just drive as fast as possible towards your enemy, and hope the trukk's special damage table brings you (bouncing or not) even closer to the enemy when it's shot to pieces..

A question: what type of powerweapons do burnas count as in CC? What type does the warphead 1-3 count as?

Hoping not to jinx anything, but with the latest nerfs that headed our way (koptas, kommandos, trukkaboys etc) I wouldn't be surprised if they were faq:ed as axes, or anything that's ap4 or worse in CC...

//Calle

yeah i haven't actually had the dok die yet in the 4-5 games I have brought him so far in 6th... unfortunately. I mean he's awesome and what not but I want him to protect the manz w/ fnp and allow them to cross board and then die about turn 4 and let them sit on an obj...

The only thing i dislike about MANZ rokkits is one time use only, hits on 5+, and not twin linked, and lose your TL shoota for it.. only metal manz locally were rokkits so thats all i have, had to kitbash kombiskorchas and magnetize them to switch between rokkits or skorchas.

I sure hope burna's are ap3...

I thought warphead ones were ap3 as well too? nothing to back this claim up though.

Something important that I just re-read that I thought I would share.
The d3 stormboyz lost to charging if you assault on the turn they deepstrike only happens if the charge is successful. I know I saw a post somewhere that some lost d3 boyz to the charge and failed to roll the needed charge distance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can't believe that they removed the TL from dakka gunz. That is just sad.

unless their entry saying they are TL overrides the actual gun entry?

UrgThraka wrote:Something important that I just re-read that I thought I would share.
The d3 stormboyz lost to charging if you assault on the turn they deepstrike only happens if the charge is successful. I know I saw a post somewhere that some lost d3 boyz to the charge and failed to roll the needed charge distance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can't believe that they removed the TL from dakka gunz. That is just sad.

unless their entry saying they are TL overrides the actual gun entry?

I was the guy losing d3 stormboys even when failing a charge out of deep strike. Thanks for letting me know this!!!!!

I believe dakkagun is still TL. I didn't think that changed

What about Kanz kitted with KMBs? What is the consensus on them?

Are rokkits still better to give them?

Burnas fall under the "Unusual Power Weapons" category on pg.61 of the BRB.
"treat it as an AP3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

meaning str 4 AP 3 attacks at init (which means less than it did but still).

It now occurs to me that Kopta Rokkits are better than Kan Rokkits due to a cheaper unit + koptas can have bigger squads + koptas have a better movement range + koptas can outflank + koptas have 2 wounds and a save!

Burna's will come under "Unusual Power Weapons" therefore are AP3 in addition to any other special rules they confer.