Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wow, I like that model a lot better actually! The wings might be the weakest point, but it's pretty sweet, imo.

Edit: quoting onto new page:

 scarletsquig wrote:
There's this guy as well, the Angel heroes turned out quite well:



Another good sculpt although I think the wings would look better painted entirely metal there.

Both of them are 3d sculpts, by the way. These were the minis made for the $6000 backers, who were very picky about sculpt quality and asked for the sculpts to be tweaked multiple times. It's amazing how asking the opinion of even just 2 mantic fans on a sculpt before sending it off for tooling can result in some much nicer looking minis.

But here's what I don't understand... why would they not normally go about this process? If having a few people who are willing to say "No" to a sculpt is all it takes... can they hire one of those guys? Get his opinion as a freelancer?

Seriously, Mantic needs to reject more bad sculpts and put out more like this... and then they'll be rolling in it! And also save money on not paying for poor sculpts to be cast that won't sell very well.

Interestingly, the Basileans were delayed from 2nd shipment to 3rd shipment because of the overwhelming demand for them - I read something like Mantic had to order 89,000 men at arms sprues to fulfill orders.

I'm pretty excited to get the third shipment, honestly. I'd very much like to see them "in the flesh", and the more I think about it, the more I'm reconsidering selling my freebies immediately and instead painting them as a darker leather/black color scheme (still don't know what to do about those arms...)

 judgedoug wrote:
Interestingly, the Basileans were delayed from 2nd shipment to 3rd shipment because of the overwhelming demand for them - I read something like Mantic had to order 89,000 men at arms sprues to fulfill orders.

57 sprues for every kickstarter backer? 0_o

It all comes down to the arms...doesn't it?

It is still mind-blowing to see how Mantic will do so well on some things, and then totally drop the ball on others...

 scarletsquig wrote:
There's this guy as well, the Angel heroes turned out quite well:



Another good sculpt although I think the wings would look better painted entirely metal there.

Both of them are 3d sculpts, by the way. These were the minis made for the $6000 backers, who were very picky about sculpt quality and asked for the sculpts to be tweaked multiple times. It's amazing how asking the opinion of even just 2 mantic fans on a sculpt before sending it off for tooling can result in some much nicer looking minis.

Agreed. The mini is quite nice both in detail and scale (except for maybe the wing position as I'd equate the one above with a soaring pose and not a standing on the ground one). The wings might be as easily converted by changing their angle or adding the blood angel sanguinary guard wings to his back instead (assuming the scale is roughly the same).

The arms may be fine: if they were the masters, the arms are thinner/smaller and shrink more than the bodies. We saw it with Elohi heads. Ok in original pics, itty bitty in the flesh. I had to replace all the heads for mine. Disappointing, but it's the only thing I've been unhappy with (plus a few arms needing to be cut to fit properly, but lots of companies have the same issue). So yeah, one issue when I'm happy with everything else...nobody is perfect.

If they could have kept the focus on their miniatures like they did with the original style plastics they put out, I reckon they would be in a much better position in regards to kickstarters.

They do offer volume, and yes they do deliver on time. But when a lot of their stuff is badly sculpted, and they don't take the time to make sure what they are getting is exactly what is wanted, especially when it comes to sculpt vs concept art, it hurts them in the long run.

Am I happy that I get a whole bunch of miniatures? Sure. Are they ones I would buy at release for myself? Most likely not, no. I am most likely to just sell everything I am getting at this stage and seeing if I can break even.

 scarletsquig wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Interestingly, the Basileans were delayed from 2nd shipment to 3rd shipment because of the overwhelming demand for them - I read something like Mantic had to order 89,000 men at arms sprues to fulfill orders.

57 sprues for every kickstarter backer? 0_o

I would also assume retail orders since they're being released shortly after the KS shipments.

Really like these new Knights and Angels..

Winged armoured guy looks very cool! Rather nice paintjob as well.

I don't play any fantasy games, but I love these Basileans. Was contemplating picking up some trolls just to paint, but I think I like these guys even more. Might make it a reward if I can clear the painting queue a bit ; p

I emailed Stewart to ask if there were any pictures of the Stormwind or Twilight Kin Cavalry available, so backers could decide whether to add them or not to the final survey. His response was:

We don't have pictures of the elves unfortunately - our sculptor was running a little late with them, and they literally went straight from him to the factory for production so we didn't get a chance to take photos. The concept art for them is on our Facebook page, and the moulds have recently been tested so we should have some production samples quite soon. We'll get them up on the website as soon as we can.

So, well, I won't get into the problems with that reply, aside from the fact that I don't trust Mantic to deliver on unseen product in terms of quality, even with great concept art. So that's $50-100 I won't be rolling the dice on.

 Azazelx wrote:
I emailed Stewart to ask if there were any pictures of the Stormwind or Twilight Kin Cavalry available, so backers could decide whether to add them or not to the final survey. His response was:

We don't have pictures of the elves unfortunately - our sculptor was running a little late with them, and they literally went straight from him to the factory for production so we didn't get a chance to take photos. The concept art for them is on our Facebook page, and the moulds have recently been tested so we should have some production samples quite soon. We'll get them up on the website as soon as we can.

So, well, I won't get into the problems with that reply, aside from the fact that I don't trust Mantic to deliver on unseen product in terms of quality, even with great concept art. So that's $50-100 I won't be rolling the dice on.

That reply reminds me of movies which are not available for 'critics review' which usually points to a movie so terrible the studio won't let critics pre-screen it.

Mantic 'concept art' is basically worthless in all regards as even the models which look 'good' look nothing like the concept art.

Yowch, that's not good...
Well, here's hoping they buck a trend or two (maybe these were left to a sculptor who's competent on his own accord?) but that's not encouraging.

nkelsch wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I emailed Stewart to ask if there were any pictures of the Stormwind or Twilight Kin Cavalry available, so backers could decide whether to add them or not to the final survey. His response was:

We don't have pictures of the elves unfortunately - our sculptor was running a little late with them, and they literally went straight from him to the factory for production so we didn't get a chance to take photos. The concept art for them is on our Facebook page, and the moulds have recently been tested so we should have some production samples quite soon. We'll get them up on the website as soon as we can.

So, well, I won't get into the problems with that reply, aside from the fact that I don't trust Mantic to deliver on unseen product in terms of quality, even with great concept art. So that's $50-100 I won't be rolling the dice on.

That reply reminds me of movies which are not available for 'critics review' which usually points to a movie so terrible the studio won't let critics pre-screen it.

Mantic 'concept art' is basically worthless in all regards as even the models which look 'good' look nothing like the concept art.

A few marauder models aside, all of the models from the Deadzone KS seem to match the concept art pretty spot on. A few of them have some awkward elements in the execution, but they do match the concept very well. Isn't the dreadzone execution pretty spot on to the art too? Really, it's the KoW KS that had this issue - a kickstarter in which they were obviously scrambling to get concept art ready on the fly (and I believe they generally mentioned that they were tossing a few ideas around still). So yes - it has been an issue, but it appears to be improving over time for better overall product. Mantic has had some issues, but the broad stroke you're painting is an unfair representation.

decker_cky wrote:
the broad stroke you're painting is an unfair representation.

Ah, so you've only just met nkelsch, I see? Par for the course, really. Still, I could say that, well, the DB zzor had some surprises when they were first shown a few months ago if I recall correctly - it just wasn't an issue since they're pretty damn cool. But yes, generally that's been confined to the KoW KS only.

 Bolognesus wrote:

decker_cky wrote:
the broad stroke you're painting is an unfair representation.

Ah, so you've only just met nkelsch, I see? Par for the course, really. Still, I could say that, well, the DB zzor had some surprises when they were first shown a few months ago if I recall correctly - it just wasn't an issue since they're pretty damn cool. But yes, generally that's been confined to the KoW KS only.

But compared to their "peers" in the industry who have provided detailed concept art and the models are faithful representations down to poses and the buckles on their shoes, the mantic art which draws everyone in is not followed, designs changed, poses made wacky and WIP sculpts never fixed.

There are plenty of curveballs from the dreadball line.and barley an overall 50% faithful execution of concept art... And those which are faithful are messed up poses which ruin the concept or abysmal proportions.

This " we can't take a photo and send stuff direct from the sculptor to the factory" shows a total lack of internal organization QC or art direction. Every final sculpt should be photographed, blown up and sent to every inch of the staff inside mantic for review. The fact a picture is not being taken and they go directly to casting shows there is still zero actual art direction going on or rejection of unacceptable models as for a modelto be reviewed would require extensive photography.

it is continued deceptive practices and slapdash kick starter fulfillment which doesn't care about quality because they already have people's money and they don't want to give people the ability to see and reject a sculpt before it is shipped to them.

This could all be handled in good faith with simple photos of their models. I am sure the sculptors too photos, I am sure mantic could release those if they actually wanted to allow backers to see them before pledging via the pledge manager. The simple truth is they want to hide as much as possible as they are their own worst enemy.

 Azazelx wrote:
I emailed Stewart to ask if there were any pictures of the Stormwind or Twilight Kin Cavalry available, so backers could decide whether to add them or not to the final survey. His response was:

We don't have pictures of the elves unfortunately - our sculptor was running a little late with them, and they literally went straight from him to the factory for production so we didn't get a chance to take photos. The concept art for them is on our Facebook page, and the moulds have recently been tested so we should have some production samples quite soon. We'll get them up on the website as soon as we can.

So, well, I won't get into the problems with that reply, aside from the fact that I don't trust Mantic to deliver on unseen product in terms of quality, even with great concept art. So that's $50-100 I won't be rolling the dice on.

That quote made me laugh until I actually slapped the table. How could anyone say all that with a straight face?

I guess now we know the secret of Mantic's artistic operation.

RonnieJFletcher wrote:
The wargaming community means about as much to me as a festering ball of dog snot! You think I care about the pea-brained yokels who buy my models? If you took their combined I.Q. and multiplied it by a hundred, you might have enough intelligence to tie your shoe, if you didn't drool all over yourself first. I can't stand those sniveling maggots! They make me want to puke! But, there is one good thing about selling models to a Kickstarter full of mindless sheep: I always know I have them exactly where I want them. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

Well, I didn't post it in order for some piling on. Just that the excuse happens to be an unlikely/weak one that we've seen before with poor end results, and that under the circumstances anyone else here considering getting the Elf cav might want to give them a cautious miss. I mean, it's obviously different to the reasons that Squig gave awhile back (rejected sculpts getting redone) but to be fair, I understand that no employee can come out and say that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's also worth pointing out that nkelsch's points about photos and the non-release of same are obviously good ones.

Think I've settled on the best source of alt. heads for the men at arms.

Perry mounted men-at-arms box comes with 24 spare heads in a very similar style to the men at arms helms. Sallet helms, with feathers.

2/5 of the heads on the M@A sprue look okay, so that's another 16 heads sorted.

So, one box of perry will get 40 men at arms looking how I want, while also adding some useful cavalry minis, and giving me 3 standard and 3 musician bits (which I need since you don't get them with the KS models).. there's even 15 spare hand weapons with hands attached so I can try replacing some of the sister weapons with maces and hammers.

I'll post up the conversion pics of these once they're ready, I think the Basileans can be a great looking army, but they will need a little work doing first to get them there.

I wonder how well the Angels might work with plastic Elven heads?

 Azazelx wrote:
I wonder how well the Angels might work with plastic Elven heads?

I tried them with non-helmeted guardian heads from the Eldard line. They are still too small. The only heads I had luck with where the Pistoliers head that I had porkus lime show earlier, and cast marauder heads with the horns cut off the Helms. Both look quite good, I must say.

nkelsch wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

decker_cky wrote:
the broad stroke you're painting is an unfair representation.

Ah, so you've only just met nkelsch, I see? Par for the course, really. Still, I could say that, well, the DB zzor had some surprises when they were first shown a few months ago if I recall correctly - it just wasn't an issue since they're pretty damn cool. But yes, generally that's been confined to the KoW KS only.

But compared to their "peers" in the industry who have provided detailed concept art and the models are faithful representations down to poses and the buckles on their shoes, the mantic art which draws everyone in is not followed, designs changed, poses made wacky and WIP sculpts never fixed.

Emphasis mine.

Examples please? I keep seeing this bandied about, and I'd like to see some examples of it.

nkelsch wrote:

There are plenty of curveballs from the dreadball line.and barley an overall 50% faithful execution of concept art... And those which are faithful are messed up poses which ruin the concept or abysmal proportions.

Your statistic is probably incorrect and largely meaningless, but I completely agree about the poses and proportions issue.

nkelsch wrote:

This " we can't take a photo and send stuff direct from the sculptor to the factory" shows a total lack of internal organization QC or art direction. Every final sculpt should be photographed, blown up and sent to every inch of the staff inside mantic for review. The fact a picture is not being taken and they go directly to casting shows there is still zero actual art direction going on or rejection of unacceptable models as for a modelto be reviewed would require extensive photography.

This is spot on in my opinion.

nkelsch wrote:

it is continued deceptive practices and slapdash kick starter fulfillment which doesn't care about quality because they already have people's money and they don't want to give people the ability to see and reject a sculpt before it is shipped to them.

This is malicious speculation at best. You have absolutely no way of knowing their motives.

nkelsch wrote:

This could all be handled in good faith with simple photos of their models. I am sure the sculptors too photos, I am sure mantic could release those if they actually wanted to allow backers to see them before pledging via the pledge manager. The simple truth is they want to hide as much as possible as they are their own worst enemy.

Releasing the sculptor's photos should work. After all, if they were good enough to approve the item with, they are good enough for a preview.



New Basileans characters look incredible. Will almost certainly pick those up. If anyone here pledged for a Basilean army but doesn't want to keep it, PM me. I'll work with you on a deal for them.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:
...

nkelsch wrote:

This could all be handled in good faith with simple photos of their models. I am sure the sculptors too photos, I am sure mantic could release those if they actually wanted to allow backers to see them before pledging via the pledge manager. The simple truth is they want to hide as much as possible as they are their own worst enemy.

Releasing the sculptor's photos should work. After all, if they were good enough to approve the item with, they are good enough for a preview.

I hadn't really thought about this, but that's true: since the work is being done by freelancers, there must be photos, even if only for supervisors at Mantic to give the okay on. Any reasonable work product setup would require the artists to check back in on the elements in question.

To imagine the alternative is... gobsmacking. The only way there could not be WIP and final photos would be... if they had either a) implicit faith in the sculptors, or b) no interest or ability to demand changes.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

I hadn't really thought about this, but that's true: since the work is being done by freelancers, there must be photos, even if only for supervisors at Mantic to give the okay on. Any reasonable work product setup would require the artists to check back in on the elements in question.

To imagine the alternative is... gobsmacking. The only way there could not be WIP and final photos would be... if they had either a) implicit faith in the sculptors, or b) no interest or ability to demand changes.

I've reached this point in my thinking as well.

either way, it doesn't make me respect mantic overly much.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I wonder how well the Angels might work with plastic Elven heads?

I tried them with non-helmeted guardian heads from the Eldard line. They are still too small. The only heads I had luck with where the Pistoliers head that I had porkus lime show earlier, and cast marauder heads with the horns cut off the Helms. Both look quite good, I must say.

Any number of bits makers - specifically I was thinking of ordering the not-Space Marine Greek or Roman / Corinthian style helmets with crests. Specifically those as they are larger for GW's melonheaded marines.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Think I've settled on the best source of alt. heads for the men at arms.

Perry mounted men-at-arms box comes with 24 spare heads in a very similar style to the men at arms helms. Sallet helms, with feathers.

2/5 of the heads on the M@A sprue look okay, so that's another 16 heads sorted.

So, one box of perry will get 40 men at arms looking how I want, while also adding some useful cavalry minis, and giving me 3 standard and 3 musician bits (which I need since you don't get them with the KS models).. there's even 15 spare hand weapons with hands attached so I can try replacing some of the sister weapons with maces and hammers.

I'll post up the conversion pics of these once they're ready, I think the Basileans can be a great looking army, but they will need a little work doing first to get them there.

At this point though, why not just have a Basilean army using Perry troops instead of MoA?

To each his own but I actually really like the MaA. Bit of a personal thing, I'll give you that. I also like the thuggish heads so no perry troops for me this time round I guess.

To be fair though, I have yet to see them (or any KoW wave two stuff... -_-' ) in the flesh.

I'll admit, I was disappointed in how the heads of the MaA turned out. Something about them seems off, like their helmets are too small. My opinion of them may change if I ever see them in person though. Those angels though, damn. They more than make up for any issues I may have had with the rest of the Basileans.

I have all the big gribblies in the flesh (er, plastic) and the only things I've been unhappy with are the Elohi heads (using GW heads to replace) and that some two handed weapons don't connect properly without serious work. No issues with legs on trolls, big arms on ogres, any of that: Mantic didn't go with traditional looks, they made the stuff their own. And that Ogre captain looks SPOT on to the concept art. Quite pleased with stuff so far.