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But PDC are based in England, and Mantic is getting their stuff from China. Also, I don't think that perhaps they would have had a chance to get PDC in on all of that. Would be great if they hooked up with them in the future, as they could see them quicker than having to travel to China, and get information and prototypes back quicker for review.

I think rounded sprues is just the norm to be honest. Most scale model makes use that method, so I would say it's more of a coincidence. Having a flat piece with a letter on it is pretty normal.

Have you received any PDC stuff yet? Would be interested to see how it has turned out. Their stuff is pretty basic, but that's not such a bad thing.

Can I ask a favor of anyone at home with a few minutes of spare time?

I'm wondering what the Confrontation AoR (prepainted) Lion figures look like next to the Elohi angels. Specifically I'm wondering if the Lion Paladin heads can be used as replacement Elohi heads.

 Fenriswulf wrote:
... Also, hooking back up with Bob Naismith or another talented bloke...

He is good for cheap, fast sculpts. I wouldn't look to him for increasing the quality of the line.

~Eric

 judgedoug wrote:
Can I ask a favor of anyone at home with a few minutes of spare time?
I'm wondering what the Confrontation AoR (prepainted) Lion figures look like next to the Elohi angels. Specifically I'm wondering if the Lion Paladin heads can be used as replacement Elohi heads.

If you still need this in a few weeks when my KoW stuff arrives, I'll be able to help you out.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Round sprue rather than square, no labelling other than on flat label pieces within the sprue itself.

Which is basically identical to what the men at arms sprues look like.

If the Men at Arms sprues were square, they'd be the only hard edges on the kit.

 Taarnak wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
... Also, hooking back up with Bob Naismith or another talented bloke...

He is good for cheap, fast sculpts. I wouldn't look to him for increasing the quality of the line.

~Eric

He sculpted the zombies, ghouls, and orcs; the best plastics of any of those on the market.

Touche' on the Zombies.

The GW Plastic skellies (TK and VC) are also rather excellent. We'll have to agree to disagree on those Orcs

 Azazelx wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Can I ask a favor of anyone at home with a few minutes of spare time?
I'm wondering what the Confrontation AoR (prepainted) Lion figures look like next to the Elohi angels. Specifically I'm wondering if the Lion Paladin heads can be used as replacement Elohi heads.

If you still need this in a few weeks when my KoW stuff arrives, I'll be able to help you out.

Nah, it's just that I'm at work and can't compare them (I have them at home) and MiniatureMarket's deal of the day is the Lion starter army for $35. I am thinking about buying a bunch more and using them for my Basilean force plus the Mantic Elohi (with new heads). I think I'll order them anyway - Lion Guards for Men At Arm, Lion Paladins for Paladins, Lion Knights for Paladin Knights, Lion Archers as Crossbowmen(ish), heroes for various heroes, female Chimera for Ur-Elohi or Jullis, and probably the Griffon commander from CMON for a High Paladin on Griffon (the rider even looks like a Rackham Lion figure)


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 Azazelx wrote:
Touche' on the Zombies.

The GW Plastic skellies (TK and VC) are also rather excellent. We'll have to agree to disagree on those Orcs

Sure! Some people like the cartoony gorilla-armed tiny-legged oversized-head(with non functioning jaw inaction!) and fingers the size of forearms. I like my orcs to be menacing, correctly proportioned, hunched over, with metalworking skills.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
... Also, hooking back up with Bob Naismith or another talented bloke...

He is good for cheap, fast sculpts. I wouldn't look to him for increasing the quality of the line.

~Eric

He sculpted the zombies, ghouls, and orcs; the best plastics of any of those on the market.

Zombies and Ghouls are "good" because they are nondescript. Not because they are particularly well sculpted. The Orcs aren't that good. I like them for what they are, but they aren't as good as you suggest.

Also, some decent sculpts are bound to happen when you pump out so bloody many pieces. He is capable of decent sculpts. Not ground-breaking awesome ones, mind. But his output keeps him from hitting decent that often.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:


He sculpted the zombies, ghouls, and orcs; the best plastics of any of those on the market.

Zombies and Ghouls are "good" because they are nondescript. Not because they are particularly well sculpted. The Orcs aren't that good. I like them for what they are, but they aren't as good as you suggest.

Also, some decent sculpts are bound to happen when you pump out so bloody many pieces. He is capable of decent sculpts. Not ground-breaking awesome ones, mind. But his output keeps him from hitting decent that often.

~Eric

The zombies are leagues better than WF and GW's. The ghouls are an order of magntiude better than GW's. That'd make them the best plastics for those types on the market.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:


He sculpted the zombies, ghouls, and orcs; the best plastics of any of those on the market.

Zombies and Ghouls are "good" because they are nondescript. Not because they are particularly well sculpted. The Orcs aren't that good. I like them for what they are, but they aren't as good as you suggest.

Also, some decent sculpts are bound to happen when you pump out so bloody many pieces. He is capable of decent sculpts. Not ground-breaking awesome ones, mind. But his output keeps him from hitting decent that often.

~Eric

The zombies are leagues better than WF and GW's. The ghouls are an order of magntiude better than GW's. That'd make them the best plastics for those types on the market.

WF Vixens are better sculpts and variety of design. Less utility though. Their original zombies are laughably bad, but still useful for some things. GWs Zombies suffer from issues, for sure, but the Mantic ones aren't better sculpted. Better proportioned, and more generic, sure.

The two Ghoul sets are so different in design that you really can't compare them.

I like Mantic's Ghouls and Zombies better than GW's too, but that doesn't mean they are better sculpted, nor that they are the best on the market necessarily. That is where our disagreement lies, I think.

Naismith is a mediocre sculptor. At best. I have an example that I can PM you if you like when I get home next week. I got both of the Oni figures from the Goalsystem Delves Kickstarter and can show you what I mean. The two iterations of the figure are the exact same character brief done by two different sculptors. One is demonstrably better sculpted than the other.

~Eric

A good choice with the Rackham pre-paints. Almost tempted to buy a bunch from overseas, but the postage kills me, and I don't need yet another army.

Having said that, Mierce is going to have their second kickstarter soon and I hope they flesh out their ogre line...

 Fenriswulf wrote:
A good choice with the Rackham pre-paints. Almost tempted to buy a bunch from overseas, but the postage kills me, and I don't need yet another army.

Having said that, Mierce is going to have their second kickstarter soon and I hope they flesh out their ogre line...

the Miniature Market online chat support customer service people are great. just ask them to buy the confrontation stuff and repack it - they're used to overseas customers ordering at-43 and confrontation pieces and shipping without the original boxes; saves a ton of money on shipping.


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 Taarnak wrote:

WF Vixens are better sculpts and variety of design. Less utility though. Their original zombies are laughably bad, but still useful for some things. GWs Zombies suffer from issues, for sure, but the Mantic ones aren't better sculpted. Better proportioned, and more generic, sure.

The two Ghoul sets are so different in design that you really can't compare them.

I like Mantic's Ghouls and Zombies better than GW's too, but that doesn't mean they are better sculpted, nor that they are the best on the market necessarily. That is where our disagreement lies, I think.

Naismith is a mediocre sculptor. At best. I have an example that I can PM you if you like when I get home next week. I got both of the Oni figures from the Goalsystem Delves Kickstarter and can show you what I mean. The two iterations of the figure are the exact same character brief done by two different sculptors. One is demonstrably better sculpted than the other.

~Eric

No! My opinion is objective
I'm sure sculptors have good and bad days. Gary Morley = Nagash, but also the 6th edition Swordmasters of Hoeth.

Gary Morley = Mantic Drakon Riders.

I did a digital painting of the original concept sketch for the drakon riders (can be seen here)... it was a really good design, that the sculpts just plain didn't match.

This really is the biggest issue with sculpts.. translation from 2d to 3d. Bob Naismith is actually pretty good at this process and working to a brief.

He did the gargoyles, harpies, obsidian golems and immortal guard from the KoW KS minis, which are considered to be some of the better sculpts.

 scarletsquig wrote:
translation from 2d to 3d. Bob Naismith is actually pretty good at this process and working to a brief.

He did the gargoyles, harpies, obsidian golems and immortal guard from the KoW KS minis, which are considered to be some of the better sculpts.

I agree with you that the 3D transition is one of their issues. I disagree with everything else you said here.

All the miniatures you listed are chunky, basic, mediocre sculpts.

~Eric

I think they're pretty good, especially the harpies,which have a real Harryhausen look to them:


Certainly superior to the GW ones and better than the rather odd AoW ones with punk haircuts too I'd say.

Anyway, new Kickstarter update, where Ronnie talks about the men-at-arms sprue:

Ronnie Renton wrote:We used a new process from the one with which we made Goblin plastic sprue, and I think the Men at arms are a big step up in quality from those. While I think they meet the reasonable price for a good number of army figures, I am still not happy that these are at the level I want to see our hard plastic figures. We are still working on this. Until we can find a method that takes the details back to those we have had in the past we will not stop. Every time we learn more and we get better, but we are not there yet, and I thank you for your patience.

Seems like a fairly reasonable statement.

The Harpies look good to me. And I for one love Mantic's zombies. Ghouls not quite so much due to all of them squatting, but otherwise, they're great sculpts too. But then again, I like their elves, so clearly my taste is in question.

 scarletsquig wrote:

Ronnie Renton wrote:We used a new process from the one with which we made Goblin plastic sprue, and I think the Men at arms are a big step up in quality from those. While I think they meet the reasonable price for a good number of army figures, I am still not happy that these are at the level I want to see our hard plastic figures. We are still working on this. Until we can find a method that takes the details back to those we have had in the past we will not stop. Every time we learn more and we get better, but we are not there yet, and I thank you for your patience.

Seems like a fairly reasonable statement.

I've got a solution, go back to Renedra. If they can do the Perry's stuff (which is better and cheaper), Mantic should just go back cap (full of money) in hand. Honestly, the shots I've been seeing of the MAA remind me of this guy http://www.eccentricminiatures.com/ which are decent, but he's one guy doing it in his garage. I want (much like a lot of people here) Mantic to do well, and thought that with the cash from the Kickstarter they would start pulling it back together. Their undead are great (I've got ~3000pts worth), and I also like their orcs (though I prefer mine more Tolkien, less GW). Their elves are good too, if you leave the aesthetics aside and focus on execution (Exception: Drakkon riders). Unfortunately a lot of the stuff from the kickstarter is a bit underwhelming. I'll hold off final judgement until I have my stuff in hand (I got it all in the third shipment, not yet here), but I haven't got high hopes.

IIRC the reason they haven't been using Rendra is because they can't, Rendra doesn't have the room for additional work.

 scarletsquig wrote:

Ronnie Renton wrote:We used a new process from the one with which we made Goblin plastic sprue, and I think the Men at arms are a big step up in quality from those. While I think they meet the reasonable price for a good number of army figures, I am still not happy that these are at the level I want to see our hard plastic figures. We are still working on this. Until we can find a method that takes the details back to those we have had in the past we will not stop. Every time we learn more and we get better, but we are not there yet, and I thank you for your patience.

Seems like a fairly reasonable statement.

He's still not happy with them - but he released them, to us. And I don't think they've ever said a word about the universally-poorly received sisters.

And has anyone gotten shipping notices? If they started Monday then there's a slim chance I could get mine tomorrow, which is the last mail-having day of my vacation. Which would be nice.

Wait, we could have them by tomorrow? That would be nice. Amazing, actually. Hell, any time up to Thursday would be great.

 Taarnak wrote:

WF Vixens are better sculpts and variety of design. Less utility though. Their original zombies are laughably bad, but still useful for some things. GWs Zombies suffer from issues, for sure, but the Mantic ones aren't better sculpted. Better proportioned, and more generic, sure.

The two Ghoul sets are so different in design that you really can't compare them.

I like Mantic's Ghouls and Zombies better than GW's too, but that doesn't mean they are better sculpted, nor that they are the best on the market necessarily. That is where our disagreement lies, I think.

Naismith is a mediocre sculptor. At best. I have an example that I can PM you if you like when I get home next week. I got both of the Oni figures from the Goalsystem Delves Kickstarter and can show you what I mean. The two iterations of the figure are the exact same character brief done by two different sculptors. One is demonstrably better sculpted than the other.

~Eric

GW's plastic zombies are ...15? years old and were designed to be compatible with the original GW plastic skeletons that are 20 years old. (and their slightly updated cousins) - Not the newish VC or TK skelly kits.
GW's plastic ghouls are much more recent, and yes, are awful.



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 timetowaste85 wrote:
Wait, we could have them by tomorrow? That would be nice. Amazing, actually. Hell, any time up to Thursday would be great.

Well, not you. Your little flag says you're in the US.

 Cyporiean wrote:
IIRC the reason they haven't been using Rendra is because they can't, Rendra doesn't have the room for additional work.

Given the total number of new plastic sets Mantic have actually released since they made the switch(2), I'd bet that it was more of a cost issue. And now if Warlord have moved production in-house, it leaves the Perry's as Renedra's only consistent client.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
IIRC the reason they haven't been using Rendra is because they can't, Rendra doesn't have the room for additional work.

Given the total number of new plastic sets Mantic have actually released since they made the switch(2), I'd bet that it was more of a cost issue. And now if Warlord have moved production in-house, it leaves the Perry's as Renedra's only consistent client.

Fireforge. Also Agema miniatures.

 lord marcus wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
IIRC the reason they haven't been using Rendra is because they can't, Rendra doesn't have the room for additional work.

Given the total number of new plastic sets Mantic have actually released since they made the switch(2), I'd bet that it was more of a cost issue. And now if Warlord have moved production in-house, it leaves the Perry's as Renedra's only consistent client.

Fireforge. Also Agema miniatures.

I did forget about Fireforge. I didn't mention Agema because they (like Gripping Beast) haven't put out new product regularly, 1 full and one half sprue in the last several years for both combined. That said, if a new start up like Agema can get a sprue done, I don't see why Mantic couldn't. Even looking at Fireforge, it appears (from posting dates of photos) to take six months to a year to get something from green to end product through Renedra. I'm sure everyone of us here would have rather waited an extra six months for a proper Renedra tooled, full option (i.e. crossbows) sprue, rather than the half-arsed looking shots we've got so far (which given Ronnie says he's not fully happy with means I'm not holding out much hope for it to be better in person).

 scarletsquig wrote:
Anyway, new Kickstarter update, where Ronnie talks about the men-at-arms sprue:

Ronnie Renton wrote:We used a new process from the one with which we made Goblin plastic sprue, and I think the Men at arms are a big step up in quality from those. While I think they meet the reasonable price for a good number of army figures, I am still not happy that these are at the level I want to see our hard plastic figures. We are still working on this. Until we can find a method that takes the details back to those we have had in the past we will not stop. Every time we learn more and we get better, but we are not there yet, and I thank you for your patience.

Seems like a fairly reasonable statement.

Geez... I don't know. Why do Mantic continue to release figures they themselves are not happy with? He admits as much here! If it's subpar, demand better... don't have your customers foot the bill of your learning curve .

I'm glad he admitted there was a problem, but that is not a satisfying response to it. "Every time we learn more and we get better"... so the next "time" being Deadzone? Good luck, fellas

I do agree they're getting better, I just don't see why it's so hit-and-miss. Dreadball Season 3 looks good, which is concurrent with these KoW models... so why are these so poor (on some releases, not all) by comparison?

They must be pretty fething unhappy/disappointed with them if they're publicly admitting to them being anything but "amazing."

Nah. They're just trying to manage our expectations so that our first responses will be "they're better than I expected" or "they're not that bad."


EDIT: The real problem is the shamefully negative community of backers. If those tweenie boppers hadn't been weaned on Twitter and instant gratification, this never would have happened.

The goblin archers were terrible - yes they pass the '3 feet' test, but the amount of work needed to get them to that point was far too much.

By contrast, have a couple of the DB season 2 teams and they are great. Pledged a medium amount on the Deadzone KS, so fingers crossed for that one.

Just stuck my head in through the door at some of the new GW Marine stuff. No desire for collecting more of them as that is an (extremely!) well trod road for me, but looking at the prices the only thing I can think to say was 'feth me' !

The reason I mention that is because I think Mantic have really got an opportunity here, if they can just notch the quality up a bit, keep these imaginative releases coming but also keep the prices low. For any kid coming into wargaming, and wanting to collect a mass battle system, the fact that GW is pricing themselves even further towards the upper-end of the middle class means there is a big gap in the market there. But they have to try and keep the 'core' of wargamers (the type who take it seriously enough to spend time on forums) happy with quality releases. Just undercutting GW's, by itself, isn't enough.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Nah. They're just trying to manage our expectations so that our first responses will be "they're better than I expected" or "they're not that bad."


EDIT: The real problem is the shamefully negative community of backers. If those tweenie boppers hadn't been weaned on Twitter and instant gratification, this never would have happened.

Maybe it's because I'm older and wiser than you lot, but when I used to buy things, I'd hand the money over the counter and get my product immediately. No waiting at all! I'd also usually talk to the people I was buying things from, and either simply ask for my product, make small talk or even have a chat, depending on what I was buying. You know what they did? The people selling me products would talk back to me and communicate!

Not like you young whippersnappers, raised in an era of patiently waiting weeks, months or years for your items and communication from those selling things to you. No, in my day, when you spoke to someone, they spoke right back.