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ArtIsGreat wrote:
Yeah, this has been a full page of whining I didn't need to read. One post would have been enough, but on and on and in multiple threads? There's ''warning'' people about Mantic's QC and then there's disrupting threads with a personal beef.

Well, I was resigned to checking in now and then to see if there had been any improvement, but now I know mentioning Mantics constant screw ups offends you so...
I gave up on getting the rest of my Kickstarter stuff, it reached the stage where it just wasn't worth the trouble. Mantic customer service is awful. Their quality assurance is terrible. If you sculpted both into miniatures with horribly stubby legs, I'm sure the Mantic fans would love it.

ArtIsGreat wrote:
There's ''warning'' people about Mantic's QC and then there's disrupting threads with a personal beef.

Like your beef with project elite???

 Compel wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Not heard anything about missing gamers editions.

But you are 100% certainly NOT going to get your missing Blaine on dionsaur. For whatever crazy reason, Mantic are unable to fufill that for people who they missed out the first time round. However, you should get that personally confirmed from mantic first.

What will then (probably) happen is that mantic will ask you if you would prefer a substitute similarly sized miniature, and what one.

Personally, if I was affected by this mistake (fortunately, I wasn't, but a couple of my mates were), I would have found it to be as big a farce as the Adventurers Companion screw up.

This is false. New shipment of Blaine is in, and it's being dealt with. Mine is coming shortly. Can we stop with the incorrect assumptions? Shortly after Matt got involved with my missing pledge, it was taken care of. I trust him.

And by "taken care of", I mean I have it in hand. Minus Uncharted Empires and Blaine which are coming together shortly. I've received all of the rest. So yes. I have faith in Matt.

It's not "false" if it's what my mates and I have personally experienced (please note that, 'you should get that personally confirmed from mantic first' bit).

Well, that's good news, it seems in the month or so since they told my mates they were unable to replace their Blaines they've changed track. - If that's true, of course. (I'll put myself under, "I'll believe it when I see it, myself.") I imagine my mates are going to end up being rather peeved to find out that they've been short changed on the Blaine.

One of the first things Matt did was find an alternative supplier for Blaine, so I'm pretty sure it's a case of "was true but supply issue now resolved".

So will KoW2 customers be getting their Blaine minis now? I find it unacceptable that they would not get something! I nearly pledged to get that mini, glad I didn't now.

My experiences with Mantic have not been as bad as some here at all - I had a minor problem with my DS pledge (along with the usual Adventurer's Companion issues) which was solved in the timeframe they said it would be. But I still read what others have gone through and it makes me pretty certain I'll only back for a product like DS which is exactly what I am looking for. (For the record, I'm really happy with DS, which I know not everyone was.)

The issue with Blaine also shows how Mantic are poor with communication. Over two pages here we have heard:

1. No more Blaine's. Ever.
2. Blaine's in hand and ready to be sent out (from Time to waste).
3. Blaine's due in April ( from me from KS comments as apparently told to a backer by Mantic).

Have Mantic addressed the issue officially in an update? The could nip the drama in the bud with a simple update to their backers be it yay, neigh or May. As it is speculation and hearsay just throws more fuel on the fire.

KOW is a great rule set, initially from Alessio and then further tempered by the Rules Committee ( for the love of the game) I just wish the level of CS allowed us to focus on that.

Ok, went back and re-read my email; I was told 3 days ago they just came in. And from Prodos. Should be along shortly, once their restock of UE comes in. I've told them to send all at once, not to do multiple different shipments for their own costs.

Mine should be shortly; I can't speak for everyone else on timeframe.

I hope they're doing the same thing with Dungeon Saga, rather than telling people "no can do" to the resins they ordered as suggested by one of the Kickstarter updates.

I'm still waiting on resin missing items so fingers crossed there!

Not surprised Warpath switched to metals for the KS exclusives, they can at least do that in-house.

Hopefully no more Kickstarter for the rest of the year, with any luck their financials are getting back to the point where they can just roll out a hard plastic kit every month or so, they need to move back to that model to get retail stores on board, the regular releases for KoW are a good start, getting loads of stuff out there for their most popular game is definitely the way to go.

Which update is the material change in? I pulled out of the WP KS but I'm curious to see how that all culminated according to the updates..

 RiTides wrote:
Bob - I'm all for posting shared experiences and learning from it! What I don't like is making fun of companies relentlessly - it really makes it hard for them to change perspectives even when they do improve on things, and it makes threads about them less fun for me to read as a fan. Finally, it disincentives direct company interaction on the forum... we've chased off a fair few company representatives (of all stripes ) on Dakka.

Note that I'm not saying we shouldn't share bad experiences, just that doing so straightforwardly and genuinely is a lot more effective than posting "Mantic - Almost" or "Mantic - Nonsense" or the like.

I've certainly had, and posted, some rough experiences with Mantic - the Dreadball team I pledged for and was unhappy with was most notable. But there have been some really good experiences, too - the wrecked car scenery I pledged for for a friend from Mars Attacks (really great quality!), the lesser obsidian golems I got a bucketload of, and now the literally awesome rulebooks for KoW2 - I own each in several forms now

I don't want anyone not to post a bad experience, but I think relentlessly "joking" just isn't that funny, and in some ways counterproductive - it makes a lot of the posts here more "noise" than substance, and easier for the company (and even neutral readers / posters) to ignore.

That's my case, at least - hope it makes sense

Unless you're speaking with the Mod Hat on, I'm quite happy to continue to post snarky jokes about Mantic until they fix all of their feth ups (still waiting for a good chunk of my DS here, which is tiny compared to what people like Bob and Polonius are waiting for). Now I can turn that into snarky jokes, which is a bit more pleasant than calling them a bunch of incompetent witches that couldn't organise a root in a brothel and seem to lose all interest in helping their customers once they have our money from the latest Kickstarter campaign while relying on volunteer labour to proofread and provide well rounded rules. That might be "noise" but it's noise that they've created themselves.

We know Matt is a good guy, but Rich has been almost completely fething useless (he was helpful for a while, then seemingly disappeared), and I've had to contact Ronnie directly more than once to get my KoW2 gak sorted out. I've received nothing from the new support ticket system created by the new ex-GW CSR manager guy who was supposed to be hot gak, aside from three emails that appear to be form emails. What is it now? Oh yeah, March.

Now, I like KoW a lot, and maybe I'd get around to playing DS if they got me the last of my pledge, but I think if they stopped to breathe and fix the problems, there'd be a hell of a lot less people joking about their incompetence and bad feelings. Once I sort out my Warpath pledge manager, I'm done and dusted with their Kickstarters. Well, I will be once it all arrives (if I don't just cancel it and get a refund minus KS fees.) I'd like to be a fan of theirs, but I've been burnt too many times. There's no trust left, so I can joke about it until my direct relationship with them comes to it's natural conclusion (when I finally get the last of my stuff sent to me) or get really angry and aggressive.

It's costing them money as well. I'm in no way willing to consider putting money down on any of their new campaigns. I know the TWD models attracted a bit of criticism, but I quite liked them. Did/Do I trust Mantic to deliver with any competency? Hell no. So I didn't even consider pledging. While they made a nice $600k or whatever it was in the end, it might well have done a lot better if the value had been there and they hadn't burned a lot of their "regular" backers.

I let just a little bit of my anger and frustration leak out in that post. Probably better to keep it as a bit of snark, posted occasionally eh?

 Azazelx wrote:
We know Matt is a good guy, but Rich has been almost completely fething useless (he was helpful for a while, then seemingly disappeared), and I've had to contact Ronnie directly more than once to get my KoW2 gak sorted out. I've received nothing from the new support ticket system created by the new ex-GW CSR manager guy who was supposed to be hot gak, aside from three emails that appear to be form emails. What is it now? Oh yeah, March.

It really isn't down to failings on Zak's, it's mostly how totally fetched up the original delivery was. It would take a lot to make me back a KS now.

Mantic need a KS break. It's the only way they're going to sort their company out.

I doubt that will happen though. They seem to be a "KS Company" now.

 Da Boss wrote:
Mantic need a KS break. It's the only way they're going to sort their company out.

I doubt that will happen though. They seem to be a "KS Company" now.

Thinking about it, I think mostly they always were one.
Today the question is, can they survive without a KS? and when will they alienate even the most hardcore fans with their unprofessional ways?
Shocked to read this thread only to learn on how low they are taking Mantic name.

Never been a KS fan, I prefer a company that produces the traditional way before taking my money, rather than smoke, mirrors and promises.
I fear the KS is going to be be the end for mantic, not because of it but because of the mantic's inability to deliver and interact with their customers.

I hope Im wrong.

Well if everyone who is late getting their stuff from Mantics other KS shot a message to KS when the next one hits, maybe KS will intervene. I think that's the only way to get Mantics attention now.

 Azazelx wrote:
I let just a little bit of my anger and frustration leak out in that post. Probably better to keep it as a bit of snark, posted occasionally eh?

I disagree, and hopefully I can explain why clearly below:

Sometimes, places like first-party forums or Kickstarter comments become too much like a "fanboy" echo chamber to be helpful. But there has been a trend the last few years on Dakka for certain threads to become the opposite - echo chambers of memes and "hater" comments, such that the "fanboys" don't dare post anything.

The outcome is in threads like that, we only get one side/perspective dominating, and it's just as bad (but in the opposite sense) as official forums. There is some value in this - a place where people can be honest and point out flaws without reprisal from the company under discussion. But taken too far, it loses that usefulness and becomes just a cycle of jabs/jokes.

A good example of this is the Raging Heroes KS1 thread. If you only read Dakka, you'd think everyone hated them. Yet they launched a second campaign which was similarly successful to the first! The thread on Dakka had become a place of a single perspective (joking at the company's expense) and those with alternative views were driven off. So again, I totally think that people should post legitimate complaints, grievances, feedback, etc. But ideally, doing so in a way that encourages interaction rather than relentlessly making fun of a company/product, and thus eventually driving off those with opposing views.

I hope this makes sense - I'd love for us to be known as a place where a fair discussion can take place, rather than a place where one view dominates / drowns out the others (whether for or against a company). Cheers

 Baragash wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
We know Matt is a good guy, but Rich has been almost completely fething useless (he was helpful for a while, then seemingly disappeared), and I've had to contact Ronnie directly more than once to get my KoW2 gak sorted out. I've received nothing from the new support ticket system created by the new ex-GW CSR manager guy who was supposed to be hot gak, aside from three emails that appear to be form emails. What is it now? Oh yeah, March.

It really isn't down to failings on Zak's, it's mostly how totally fetched up the original delivery was. It would take a lot to make me back a KS now.

The original delivery is definitely the source of mantic's problems and it's surprising how lon it's been going on. Think of how many KS backers end up filing a ticket for missing or damaged items and how many hours of labor are spent processing those tickets, assembling corrective shipments, paying for the replacement products and paying for shipping them. All that has to be costing mantic a fortune.

 RiTides wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I let just a little bit of my anger and frustration leak out in that post. Probably better to keep it as a bit of snark, posted occasionally eh?

I disagree, and hopefully I can explain why clearly below:

Sometimes, places like first-party forums or Kickstarter comments become too much like a "fanboy" echo chamber to be helpful. But there has been a trend the last few years on Dakka for certain threads to become the opposite - echo chambers of memes and "hater" comments, such that the "fanboys" don't dare post anything.

The outcome is in threads like that, we only get one side/perspective dominating, and it's just as bad (but in the opposite sense) as official forums. There is some value in this - a place where people can be honest and point out flaws without reprisal from the company under discussion. But taken too far, it loses that usefulness and becomes just a cycle of jabs/jokes.

A good example of this is the Raging Heroes KS1 thread. If you only read Dakka, you'd think everyone hated them. Yet they launched a second campaign which was similarly successful to the first! The thread on Dakka had become a place of a single perspective (joking at the company's expense) and those with alternative views were driven off. So again, I totally think that people should post legitimate complaints, grievances, feedback, etc. But ideally, doing so in a way that encourages interaction rather than relentlessly making fun of a company/product, and thus eventually driving off those with opposing views.

I hope this makes sense - I'd love for us to be known as a place where a fair discussion can take place, rather than a place where one view dominates / drowns out the others (whether for or against a company). Cheers

I will save this and quote it in every AoS thread ever (although to be fair, those have calmed down lately)

Dakka Dakka IS a place where 'fair' discussion can and does take place - and...fortunately (though I'm sure it will be 'unfortunately' for some) this means that dissenting views will almost always be allowed to be aired.

I think RiTides is more concerned about posts becoming ONLY being snarky swipes with little to no other content, but as long as any post follows the rules of the site, it will certainly be allowed.

I think the Mantic threads tend to be pretty fair these days. I love some of what they do but CS is a big area they need to focus on. They seem to know that, but honestly I reckon working in Mantic must be a constant state of "crunch" due to always having a KS on the boil. Can't be pleasant!

 Alpharius wrote:
Dakka Dakka IS a place where 'fair' discussion can and does take place - and...fortunately (though I'm sure it will be 'unfortunately' for some) this means that dissenting views will almost always be allowed to be aired.

I think RiTides is more concerned about posts becoming ONLY being snarky swipes with little to no other content, but as long as any post follows the rules of the site, it will certainly be allowed.

And as RiTides said, there are examples of that, such as the RH thread, and I would certainly add the first several months of AoS, although as I said it's much (MUCH) better now. Still a great post that I will be sure to save for the future when my words fail me!

 scarletsquig wrote:
Lots of new KoW minis, they'll also be releasing Silverbreeze Cavalry for the Elves and a Steel Behemoth for the Dwarfs shortly afterwards.

A mixed bag. Love the Werewolf and the Chaos Dwarf, don't like the Troll at all, and the Wights fall somewhere in the middle.

 Alpharius wrote:
I think RiTides is more concerned about posts becoming ONLY being snarky swipes with little to no other content, but as long as any post follows the rules of the site, it will certainly be allowed.

Alpharius is totally right on this - and it's why a lot of posts Are allowed even if they're heavy on "snark". But let's face it - forums are a bit of a dying breed, and while Dakka is still going very strong, you never want it to be an environment such that people think "Man this sucks, I'd just rather go post about this on Facebook" or the like. Age of Sigmar, as Mymearan points out, is one of the main things I've been thinking about in this regard... I'll be honest, it's not for me. But it IS for some people... and those people are having to wade through a lot of "Age of Suckmar" or whatever other silliness to talk about it. There are some things we might be able to do to help with this structurally - but having our regular posters be a bit more thoughtful in their criticisms would also help the situation a whole lot!

To bring this back onto the topic of Mantic - I've only started paying serious attention to them recently, as a direct result of AoS. I jumped to KoW and really, really love the ruleset so far... and despite a crazy schedule have been putting in some hobby time on my Abyssal Dwarfs. Now that hobby time doesn't actually include painting them but I queued someone up to do that for me last summer, and my bases are finally arriving tomorrow and the whole shabang is going in the mail the next day!

Previously, nothing Mantic did was enough to really catch my attention - only the occasional small purchase here or there. However, they've nailed it with this ruleset enough that they have my attention, and a whole lot of others. I absolutely recognize that they need to fix both their customer service and fulfillment issues. But let's be honest, for us regular posters, we knew about those going in - it's part of the reason why I wait to buy things from their store via Paypal, it would be so easy for me to get refunded if something wasn't delivered. I did the same with Mierce Miniatures for a long time as a precaution, based on what we saw with Maelstrom Games. Some companies you know will be riskier to back than others, and although I love KoW, Mantic is definitely at the top of that list if you're expecting the product to be a match to the art.

So... I think they deserve criticism and an informed eye, but at the same time, they're doing some things insanely well (their KoW 2nd ed ruleset, and the Uncharted Empires expansion they put out right after). I think it's a more useful discussion when both sides are able to be "heard" so to speak, and a lot of times the "dissenting" view on Dakka is the positive one! All that to say... I'd love to see the criticism of companies like Mantic, or even Raging Heroes (Dakka's favorite punching bag for a long time) not go "below the belt" but stick to the real facts of what they need to work and improve on. I think this is the most effective way to get through to them, whereas it's easy for them to write off memes as "internet noise" or the like.

Hope that makes sense, and sorry for the segway . Perhaps we can take it to Dakka Discussions if anyone wants to talk about things in more detail, or I'd love to do it via PM, as well!

One could say I guess, it depends on the thread. - In a general discussion thead, one could expect general discussions, which may include displeased people. - In a news thread, people might share and discuss bad news.

But then someone could go and say, start a discussion about which is a persons preferred tournament system for Age of Sigmar, they're probably wanting to discuss that rather than go over 'Age of Suckmar' again and again.

And, I'm sure the dakka mods are great at ensuring that those discussions get to happen.

Though, a part of me is still a bit grumpy about being accused of being part of the 'anti American brigade....'

RI Tides, I feel like you miss a bit n your perception. You notice the negativity and snark when that is what is prevalent, but seem to miss the many pages of mostly positive rules discussions. When Mantic gets it right, we post about it while it is still news and then bring it up when it is relevant. KoW receives nearly unanimous praise for its rule set, as does Mars Attacks and Dreadball. When discussing minis, many of us love the old plastics, most of the new plastics, the Mars Attacks plastics and most of the DBX plastics. If it seems like we keep harping on "leg day" minis, that's only because Mantic keep releasing minis that conform to that style, keeping it in the news.

Personally, I would love to post gushing rants about their KoW2 plastics. The designs look great and I have heard good things about the quality. However, I haven't received them yet, so I can't. It's news in that the problem still exists, expanding in significance due to the ever increasing lag and scale, which will have obvious knock on effects for other aspects of Mantic's business.

As for snark, the RH thread might have had a lot of lol meme posts, but it could have been far worse, like the Robotech thread, AVP thread or Sedition Wars. Those threads had less snark and more genuine anger, which stifled conversation much more than in any Mantic thread.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
As for snark, the RH thread might have had a lot of lol meme posts, but it could have been far worse, like the Robotech thread, AVP thread or Sedition Wars. Those threads had less snark and more genuine anger, which stifled conversation much more than in any Mantic thread.

That's certainly a fair point, Bob, although those are probably the top 3 worst threads listed there so hard to top! It was more a candid post about what I'd like to see more of.

To use an example from another part of Dakka, there was a lot of jokes / snark / etc being made about the ITC tournament ruleset / format / FAQ. While the negative feedback did serve a purpose, it ended up being a lot more effective to present it as a direct request for change (in my case, the Ghostkeel ruling was what I submitted, as I'm sure others did, too). All the other stuff kind of got lost in the noise and didn't have an effect on the ITC crew one way or the other - some of the most "made fun of" rulings didn't get on the ballot, because the feedback wasn't presented in a way that the ITC crew could easily take onboard.

There's certainly a place for discussing amongst ourselves, rather than expecting it to have any direct impact on the company / product, but I still think directness is a lot more helpful, and a lot more likely to be taken onboard, than things like the "leg day" comments. Some companies will refuse to change, but others will actually take the feedback from their fans... and I think Mantic falls into the latter group, at least sometimes.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion and maybe I'll make a separate Dakka Discussions thread for it so we don't get too far afield here. If you'd like to discuss it further please feel free to PM me, I would love to (although be warned, I can write pages on this stuff ). Cheers!

KoW news!

New renders for metal centaurs courtesy of Beasts of War - http://www.beastsofwar.com/kings-of-war/exclusive-forces-nature-centaurs/

Not bad, not bad. I actually cannot find any kind of flaw in these. MAAAAYBE the human part is a bit too big.

Nice! I'll eagerly be watching the price point...

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Nice! I'll eagerly be watching the price point...

Cavalry seems to consistently be 10 for £25 if they're in plastic. (Metal of metal hybrids are 5 for £18)

DaveC posted that these are metal right above the pics, although obviously they don't look like it here! Are these primed?

I like them but since they are metal I'm not to excited. Especially because I'd be inclined to swap the top of the body out for something else. I really like the horse part though.