Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If for any reason CMON does not cooperate with you (after trying to solve it privately) threaten them by reporting them to the BBB.

I have had outstanding service twice after doing so.

David Doust of CMON was reported more than a few times to the BBB when he owned New Wave miniatures ripping people.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Sirius42 wrote:
Just to clarify, is this folks requesting a refund for sedition wars stuff? because if so, now that theyve started it could open the flood gates....

Does throwing boxes of miniatures into the ocean count as destroying them? Because I reckon you could have some fun with that.

Ironically enough I work offshore so I could probably arrange a fairly elaborate version of that.

 Sirius42 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Sirius42 wrote:
Just to clarify, is this folks requesting a refund for sedition wars stuff? because if so, now that theyve started it could open the flood gates....

Does throwing boxes of miniatures into the ocean count as destroying them? Because I reckon you could have some fun with that.

Ironically enough I work offshore so I could probably arrange a fairly elaborate version of that.

put it on youtube.

After a guarantee of a refund I might.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:
So long as they announce a change in materials to something better, I, too, would be willing to back another Studio McVey project so long as CMoN isn't involved.

I own several Studio McVey miniatures and will attest to their excellent quality and good customer service.

I have been leery of CMON ever since I bought an elf on a giant owl because they were 'Limited Edition' and there were only a handful left... and then they changed their minds and kept making and selling more. I spent money leaving me short one week to get that figure, because I feared that once gone, I'd have no opportunity to get it again.

There is something 'off' about CMON and their business ethos.

I will happily continue to purchase from Studio McVey in the future, I will continue to tread with wariness around CMON and continue to refuse participation in any of their projects as I did when it was clear they were involved in this.

About my feeling. I've learned to disbelieve most gaming "limited edition" things, because without a number, it's just "until we stop making it".

I also am definitely steering clear of CMoN since their recent "by signing this, you acknowledge we're not accountable for anything ever" TOS

 spiralingcadaver wrote:


I also am definitely steering clear of CMoN since their recent "by signing this, you acknowledge we're not accountable for anything ever" TOS

Do you have a link to the Tos?

Link 2nd post down, by Orlando, if it doesn't snap correctly. I'm surprised it wasn't re-posted here, so quoting:

We are informing you that the products are in design and as presented are not 100% final and that shipping times are an estimate only, and may ship earlier or later. By clicking the "Checkout with PayPal" button below you agree that the final products may differ significantly in name, appearance, composition, color or other material manner, and that the shipping dates may be earlier or later than the provided estimates, and that you also agree that you will not seek a refund or compensation due to these changes. If you do not agree, do not click "Checkout with PayPal" and instead write kickstarter@coolminiornot.com immediately to cancel your pledge for a refund.

Who was interested in bases, again? I haven't been able to swap my set of strain models, so I can make a deal with you for their bases and just donate the minis themselves to the orphanage.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:
So long as they announce a change in materials to something better, I, too, would be willing to back another Studio McVey project so long as CMoN isn't involved.

I own several Studio McVey miniatures and will attest to their excellent quality and good customer service.

I have been leery of CMON ever since I bought an elf on a giant owl because they were 'Limited Edition' and there were only a handful left... and then they changed their minds and kept making and selling more. I spent money leaving me short one week to get that figure, because I feared that once gone, I'd have no opportunity to get it again.

There is something 'off' about CMON and their business ethos.

I will happily continue to purchase from Studio McVey in the future, I will continue to tread with wariness around CMON and continue to refuse participation in any of their projects as I did when it was clear they were involved in this.

All of the things you don't like about the Sedition Wars product were decisions made by studio McVey. Jussayin.

huh? None of those complaints were about SMV/SW

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
huh? None of those complaints were about SMV/SW

No. It was a full fledged support of McVey and condemnation of CMoN based on SW, as that's what this thread is about.

Don't like the model material? That was a Studio McVey decision.

Don't like the cardboard material? That was a studio McVey decision.

Don't like the rules? Those were a studio McVey endeavor.

If you want to dislike CMoN, fine. But if it's due to any of those three things, and you're still going to support SMcV, you're a hypocrite.

 Sirius42 wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Did you guys see that apparently, folks asking for refunds were asked to destroy their models?

Quote from one user on October 18th:

Andreas Øwre wrote:i mailed them about 6 hours ago and asked for a full refund. They sent me a confirmation email stating I would get a returnslip and a full refund about an hour later. Glad to be rid of this terrible product. Poor game, poor quality (tiles and cardboard w1, miniatures w2) Post campain customer service however is top notch.

Followed by this on November 13th:

Andreas Øwre wrote:I was just asked to Destroy the contents. And destroy them I will!

Another user from November 5th:

Guillaume Bernard wrote:I just asked a refund and got an answer the same day telling me to destroy my figs to get the refund. Then it took almost 2 weeks to get the refund by paypal.

Guillaume Bernard wrote:They ask for a picture of the destroyed minis.




Must say was a real pleasure doing that, almost cathartic.

I don't know if this is just for overseas backers as both had interesting names. There was one other user who also said they were asked to destroy theirs, but one just 2 days ago said that they were asked to return theirs to the warehouse in the US (and they were in the UK). So, maybe it depends on what the items are- the backer asked to return the models was for wave 3 (I'm assuming that's just some of the exclusives, whereas maybe the others were the base box).

Certainly interesting... I think Andreas is right in the way he characterizes his disappointment- it was with the tiles in wave 1, and the miniatures in wave 2. If you can snag the base box for a deal, or the terrain, I think that'd be very smart imo.

Just to clarify, is this folks requesting a refund for sedition wars stuff? because if so, now that theyve started it could open the flood gates....

Sorry for the long quote, but I think it's needed for context due to page rollover.

And yep! It's from the comments of the Sedition Wars KS where folks were told to destroy their items to get a refund (in some cases). However, one person was seemingly told to return their items, so I don't know if it just depends on the items in question, or your location, etc.

But it's certainly interesting

 cincydooley wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
huh? None of those complaints were about SMV/SW

No. It was a full fledged support of McVey and condemnation of CMoN based on SW, as that's what this thread is about.

Don't like the model material? That was a Studio McVey decision.

Don't like the cardboard material? That was a studio McVey decision.

Don't like the rules? Those were a studio McVey endeavor.

If you want to dislike CMoN, fine. But if it's due to any of those three things, and you're still going to support SMcV, you're a hypocrite.

His criticism of CMoN was about their past, not SW.

And I've never heard anything specifically addressing material (models, tiles) responsibilities/choices, though it's usually the publisher's field. Impossible to say either, as neither company has (AFAIK) said anything about these.

Rules are on both companies' heads, as BBG was brought in by CMoN though the initial rules were hired by SMV, though only SMV is making an effort to improve them.

You can direct complaints about the small scale of a number of wave 2 models at SMV with certainty, as SMV claimed responsibility for, and disappointment at, the results of the smaller sculpts.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Link 2nd post down, by Orlando, if it doesn't snap correctly. I'm surprised it wasn't re-posted here, so quoting:

We are informing you that the products are in design and as presented are not 100% final and that shipping times are an estimate only, and may ship earlier or later. By clicking the "Checkout with PayPal" button below you agree that the final products may differ significantly in name, appearance, composition, color or other material manner, and that the shipping dates may be earlier or later than the provided estimates, and that you also agree that you will not seek a refund or compensation due to these changes. If you do not agree, do not click "Checkout with PayPal" and instead write kickstarter@coolminiornot.com immediately to cancel your pledge for a refund.

Yeah, wow.. those are pretty one sided. "As long as we give you something, anything... our responsibility is met!" I wonder if legally you're bound to those terms if you *DON'T* checkout with paypal and just add nothing during the pledge manager. Either way, it's an incredibly shady set of disclaimer to try and add *AFTER* a campaign has concluded. I don't see a problem writing that on the front page of the kickstarter campaign from a consumer standpoint so if you pledge you know upfront what you're getting yourself into legally but I don't think it's a good idea to try and shoehorn that in after the fact.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Who was interested in bases, again? I haven't been able to swap my set of strain models, so I can make a deal with you for their bases and just donate the minis themselves to the orphanage.

That's me. PM me and we'll talk...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

And I've never heard anything specifically addressing material (models, tiles) responsibilities/choices, though it's usually the publisher's field. Impossible to say either, as neither company has (AFAIK) said anything about these.

Rules are on both companies' heads, as BBG was brought in by CMoN though the initial rules were hired by SMV, though only SMV is making an effort to improve them.

You can direct complaints about the small scale of a number of wave 2 models at SMV with certainty, as SMV claimed responsibility for, and disappointment at, the results of the smaller sculpts.

Both CMON and McVey are (officially, at least) not making any comments on the produciton quality issues with SW. Which makes sense, given that it would be somewhat unprofessional to start finger pointing in public. The result of course, is that the fans of both companies have been finger-pointing back and forth since the stuff started to arrive...

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
.

And I've never heard anything specifically addressing material (models, tiles) responsibilities/choices, though it's usually the publisher's field. Impossible to say either, as neither company has (AFAIK) said anything about these.

Rules are on both companies' heads, as BBG was brought in by CMoN though the initial rules were hired by SMV, though only SMV is making an effort to improve them.

You can direct complaints about the small scale of a number of wave 2 models at SMV with certainty, as SMV claimed responsibility for, and disappointment at, the results of the smaller sculpts.

Check your mail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:


Yeah, wow.. those are pretty one sided. "As long as we give you something, anything... our responsibility is met!" I wonder if legally you're bound to those terms if you *DON'T* checkout with paypal and just add nothing during the pledge manager. Either way, it's an incredibly shady set of disclaimer to try and add *AFTER* a campaign has concluded. I don't see a problem writing that on the front page of the kickstarter campaign from a consumer standpoint so if you pledge you know upfront what you're getting yourself into legally but I don't think it's a good idea to try and shoehorn that in after the fact.

It's basically an additional notation on top of the one that already exists for KS as a whole.

Thanks for the info

I think CMON is asking for proof of destruction for the LE stuff (like the calamity crew) as there's no real point to having it returned as it isn't really saleable

Where they've asked for return it is (I think) for sealed copies of the game (so they will be able to re-sell them)

I just got my box set delivered off ebay and am wondering what all the fuss is about.

The cardstock isn't thin or poor quality, it is super-thick textured board game material, not far off space hulk in terms of thickness. I'm going to mount my paper deadzone mat on it so it won't go to waste (the reports of CMoN requesting destruction of this stuff is a little disturbing, it's all reasonably good stuff that I can find a use for, there's so much waste in society these days.).

And the minis have minimal flash and good detail, it looks like the same stuff that Mantic's newer restic is made out of, that darker kind of restic that holds sharp detail a little better.

The bases are great, they seem to be hard plastic rather than restic.

I have to admit the scale on the minis is a little varied but for my purposes (deadzone plague and Rebs) a rag-tag look is acceptable.

I think I must have got a second print-run retail box or something because I'm not seeing any of the issues that backers have reported.

Either way, a good buy, still up on ebay for £20 too, the seller went "out of stock" on the original listing but then made a new listing with another 100+ boxes: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sedition-Wars-Game-board-game-brand-new-sealed-/141104455474?pt=UK_Toys_Games_Games&hash=item20da7b1f32

I guess that trader must have about 1000 boxes or so bought at next to nothing from CMoN. Possible sign that they're planning on ditching the game? I was really surprised to get a second printing box delivered from a firesale seller, I would have figured CMoN was getting rid of first printing stock.

If you got a second printing the card stock components were improved over what us KS backers got. As was the packaging of the figures.

Since your seller is UK based I wonder if it is studio McVey dumping stock instead of CMON?

The bases are REALLY nice.

 scarletsquig wrote:

I think I must have got a second print-run retail box or something because I'm not seeing any of the issues that backers have reported.

Second print run boxes had all the figures in a plastic tray. Were yours like that?

Ah, no, they were just bagged, which is fine.

Card tiles are definitely the thick ones though.

Maybe there's three printings? KS backers (bad tiles), second (good tiles) and third (good tiles, vacuum packaging)?

Casting quality is ridiculously good on the minis, there are some where it takes a lot of effort to even see the mould line, and all of the sharp edges and corners are really well-defined, closer to what I'd expect from resin than restic.

I have no idea about the game (any really good reviews of just the gameplay out there?), but I'm enjoying the background parts of the rulebook.

I can confirm after speaking with CMON, that they are very sorry about this entire debacle and that they are willing to refund any kickstarter backer who provides photographic evidence of destroying their product.

Just contact them and ask if you can destroy your stuff for a refund like everyone else.

I was a backer, liked my tiles fine- apparently some got damaged in shipping, and the 2nd printing brightened them up, but I never had an issue with the tiles except for warping (which is both common and easily corrected)


I thought the details were very good, but have never found restic very good at doing edges, and can't stand cleaning them (though that's the material and not the casting).

You KS backers should club together, destroy one set of Sedition Wars minis, take photographs of it in various places with various different cameras, lighting etc. and then each use a different photograph of the same pile of destroyed minis.

Then, get your refunds processed, and donate the (still intact) game sets to a local "xmas toys for poor kids" thing just for the sake of flipping the bird at CMoN's nihilistic approach to refunds.

As a poor kid who grew up not really having much in the way of anything there's something about the whole "You can get your money back if you BURN IT ALL" concept that really bothers me. I think they just want to make anyone asking for a refund feel really bad about it.

 IdentifyZero wrote:
I can confirm after speaking with CMON, that they are very sorry about this entire debacle and that they are willing to refund any kickstarter backer who provides photographic evidence of destroying their product.

Just contact them and ask if you can destroy your stuff for a refund like everyone else.

Are you serious?

I'll gladly destroy all of my stuff to get a refund.

Do you have an email for where to direct our request towards?

 Alpharius wrote:

 IdentifyZero wrote:
I can confirm after speaking with CMON, that they are very sorry about this entire debacle and that they are willing to refund any kickstarter backer who provides photographic evidence of destroying their product.

Just contact them and ask if you can destroy your stuff for a refund like everyone else.

Are you serious?

I'll gladly destroy all of my stuff to get a refund.

Do you have an email for where to direct our request towards?

I'll second that.

A good email address for this would be appreciated.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 IdentifyZero wrote:
I can confirm after speaking with CMON, that they are very sorry about this entire debacle and that they are willing to refund any kickstarter backer who provides photographic evidence of destroying their product.

Just contact them and ask if you can destroy your stuff for a refund like everyone else.

Are you serious?

I'll gladly destroy all of my stuff to get a refund.

Do you have an email for where to direct our request towards?

I'll second that.

A good email address for this would be appreciated.

~Eric

Thirded

 scarletsquig wrote:
You KS backers should club together, destroy one set of Sedition Wars minis, take photographs of it in various places with various different cameras, lighting etc. and then each use a different photograph of the same pile of destroyed minis.

Then, get your refunds processed, and donate the (still intact) game sets to a local "xmas toys for poor kids" thing just for the sake of flipping the bird at CMoN's nihilistic approach to refunds.

As a poor kid who grew up not really having much in the way of anything there's something about the whole "You can get your money back if you BURN IT ALL" concept that really bothers me. I think they just want to make anyone asking for a refund feel really bad about it.

Honestly, unless I knew the specific kids receiving this could handle the figures and game, I see donating it to a 'xmas toys for poor kids' program as a waste. Almost certainly it would cause frustration and get dumped or forgotten quickly. I say that as someone who donates a lot of stuff to programs like that, and who has given away gaming stuff to folks who will use it.

Hey,

Not sure if this is a secret email, but this is the one I use to get help from CMON and they always reply to me within a few days and are very friendly and helpful:

kickstarter@coolminiornot.com

If you send an email to that email, you will get an automated reply with a support ticket #. Just wait a bit and you will be contacted again. Be patient with them, it's not their fault and they will do their best to help you.

Zero