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Thats pretty much how ForgeWorld rules work. Its either WAY to pricey to be worth it, or its overpowered. Take your pick

Bonzofever wrote:Thanks Jidmah for covering that up.

As far as I'm concerned, I'll stick with the GW official Codex for two reasons :
1/ I find it difficult to buy an official GW rulebook, a product that becomes obsolete because of FW updates (even 5 years after).
As a matter of fact I don't think my local GW store would ever ask somebody to check FW updates. They sell GW products.
2/ The weapon is overpowered in Final Liberation, too.

Forgeworld is a part of GW. I'm pretty sure that an official GW store would order forgeworld models and books for you, I know my stores do. In addition, almost all apocalypse rules are printed and maintained by forgeworld. Unless you resort to forgeworld rules, you cannot play apocalypse using 6th edition - for example you would have no idea how super-heavy vehicles interact with glancing hits. You could say that apocalypse is made by forgeworld, at the very least the models are. The book and the two super-heavy kits come from a time where they still muddied the water between the two companies(many of the current IG models used to be forgeworld only), I don't think that GW will publish any more Apoc books.
Note that all apocalypse 6th edition rule upgrades are available from the forgeworld homepage free of charge (if you can find their download section... try google if you can't find it).

TL;DR: Forgeworld books are the official books when playing apocalypse. GW just decided to print one, too. It will most likely never happen again.

Actually Jidmah the lifta droppa is meant for normal 40k games, but also has unique apocalypse benefits. This is shown by the Warhammer 40,000 stamp on the picture of the model in the book, just after it's rules, as with every other entry in the book it's stamp dictates its purpose.

Furthermore Forge World have released apocalypse FAQ's to deal with problems playing it, for example each Structure Point is worth 3 Hull Points, meaning a Stompa has 12 Hull points, and a Baneblade has 9.

The Forge World downloads section is a tiny link in the right half of the homepage, around the middle.

Orkaswampa wrote:Actually Jidmah the lifta droppa is meant for normal 40k games, but also has unique apocalypse benefits. This is shown by the Warhammer 40,000 stamp on the picture of the model in the book, just after it's rules, as with every other entry in the book it's stamp dictates its purpose.

Correct. But only if you are fielding a Dread Mob army from IA:8. There is no way to field a lifta-droppa for Codex: Orks, as you have no way of knowing in what FOC it goes in, except educated guesses.

Furthermore Forge World have released apocalypse FAQ's to deal with problems playing it, for example each Structure Point is worth 3 Hull Points, meaning a Stompa has 12 Hull points, and a Baneblade has 9.

Those are still ForgeWorld rules. The person I responded to claims that the GW made books are the only official rules for apoc.

Jidmah wrote:

By the way: Neither IA:8 nor IA:ASE allow lifta-droppers to be taken in regular Codex: Ork armies.

I believe the only things in IA:8 that are allowed in Codex: Orks are:

*Grot Tanks
*Mekboy junka
*Kustom-mega Dredd
*Big Trakk
*Gun Trukk
*Gun Wagon
*all Ork special characters
*Gargantuan Squigoth (option from Death Skullz Warboss Skalk Bluetoof)

Jidmah wrote:Forgeworld is a part of GW. I'm pretty sure that an official GW store would order forgeworld models and books for you, I know my stores do.

Well I know that bit But I'm telling you, FW models can't be found in French GW stores, except on Games Day, or perhaps in a couple of larger stores. You may order FW kits online from the store, but it really doesn't mean they'll accept it in a tournament. That's a fact!

Jidmah wrote:In addition, almost all apocalypse rules are printed and maintained by forgeworld. Unless you resort to forgeworld rules, you cannot play apocalypse using 6th edition.
[...] TL;DR: Forgeworld books are the official books when playing apocalypse. GW just decided to print one, too. It will most likely never happen again.

Yeah. Anyhow, when I ask about Apocalypse games, the official GW staff use the official GW rulebook. That's another fact.
As long as the new Ork Dex (Fall 2013?) yet has to be released, I think they'll stick to the GW Apocalypse book.
I don't know how they deal with Structure Points, I guess they *do* look for the FW update, and then cook homemade rules.

All in all I agree with you. From a GW seller's point of view, though: how can you sell a Stompa if you don't have the rules in a book next to it?
I believe this is why they never refer to FW and always elude the topic. At least, at my local store.

Edit: Forgot to mention the "not-written-in-French" part. Which makes it easier to understand...

Bonzofever wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Forgeworld is a part of GW. I'm pretty sure that an official GW store would order forgeworld models and books for you, I know my stores do.

Well I know that bit But I'm telling you, FW models can't be found in French GW stores, except on Games Day, or perhaps in a couple of larger stores. You may order FW kits online from the store, but it really doesn't mean they'll accept it in a tournament. That's a fact!

Jidmah wrote:In addition, almost all apocalypse rules are printed and maintained by forgeworld. Unless you resort to forgeworld rules, you cannot play apocalypse using 6th edition.
[...] TL;DR: Forgeworld books are the official books when playing apocalypse. GW just decided to print one, too. It will most likely never happen again.

Yeah. Anyhow, when I ask about Apocalypse games, the official GW staff use the official GW rulebook. That's another fact.
As long as the new Ork Dex (Fall 2013?) yet has to be released, I think they'll stick to the GW Apocalypse book.
I don't know how they deal with Structure Points, I guess they *do* look for the FW update, and then cook homemade rules.

All in all I agree with you. From a GW seller's point of view, though: how can you sell a Stompa if you don't have the rules in a book next to it?
I believe this is why they never refer to FW and always elude the topic. At least, at my local store.

Structure points have actually been updated to Hull points if you read the FW rules update everything is there. Still structure points are only used in apocalypse games and not necessary for 40k stamped FW models. Strangely enough GW HQ does not accept FW models and rules on most of it's tournaments.

keltikhoa wrote:

Pros:
1.) Hull points makes open topped vehicles and maxed squads of Kans and Buggies more durable to glances. Also, make Deff Dreads quite alluring now.

Anyone verified this? I love my dreads but since i have yet to play a 6th game was wondering if they are still good with 4 dccw. i am thinking of a list that looks something like

2x Big Mek

2x 20 shoota boys w nob Pclaw and bpole

2x troop dread 4 dccw each

3x Dread 4 dccw each

15 lootas

not exactly sure on the points cost. dont have access to codex atm just brainstorming. but its somewhere in the 1250- 1500 range

any ideas?

I can verify that Kans and Dreds make it across the field with about the same survivability as when they were covered by the 5th Ed. KFF. Between hull points and the 6th Ed. KFF it seems to even out.

But that's only verifying that tactic. After that, all bets are off because walkers quite a bit less effective in CC now. The big deal breakers are grenades landing at WS now, and the "We can't hurt it" rule makes tying up units impossible. I actually really like "We can't hurt it", but marines spamming grenades at WS is really tough on Dreds.

They can still work, but in my opinion, they just don't feel as awesome anymore.

Regarding Trukk mobs. Anyone think that mobz of 12 boyz is really just riding too close to the "not fearless" edge?

I assumed a Lifta Wagon would be a heavy support choice as it is still a battlewagon at the end of the day, and it is one of few in the whole book that don't have it stated, like grot tanks are elites if you have a big mek for example, i rest my case

matphat wrote:
I can verify that Kans and Dreds make it across the field with about the same survivability as when they were covered by the 5th Ed. KFF. Between hull points and the 6th Ed. KFF it seems to even out.

But that's only verifying that tactic. After that, all bets are off because walkers quite a bit less effective in CC now. The big deal breakers are grenades landing at WS now, and the "We can't hurt it" rule makes tying up units impossible. I actually really like "We can't hurt it", but marines spamming grenades at WS is really tough on Dreds.

They can still work, but in my opinion, they just don't feel as awesome anymore.

Regarding Trukk mobs. Anyone think that mobz of 12 boyz is really just riding too close to the "not fearless" edge?

Thanks for the info... I posted the list in army list forum as well after building its to points cost.
1250 pts

2x bigmek BP, eavy armour, cybork, burna, KFF
2x Troop deffdread 4 dccw
3x deffdread 4ccw
2x 20 shoota boyz, nob bp pk 2xBS each squad
1x 9 lootaz

while not as awesome as before, 5 dreads at 1250 would still be intimidating and take a good bit to get rid of.

keltikhoa wrote:
Thanks for the info... I posted the list in army list forum as well after building its to points cost.
1250 pts

2x bigmek BP, eavy armour, cybork, burna, KFF
2x Troop deffdread 4 dccw
3x deffdread 4ccw
2x 20 shoota boyz, nob bp pk 2xBS each squad
1x 9 lootaz

while not as awesome as before, 5 dreads at 1250 would still be intimidating and take a good bit to get rid of.

Keep in mind that the KFF bubble only obscures the vehicles in it's range. This is a big change for squads of Kans. It wont affect the list you posted, but I thought it worth bringing up.

matphat wrote:
Keep in mind that the KFF bubble only obscures the vehicles in it's range. This is a big change for squads of Kans. It wont affect the list you posted, but I thought it worth bringing up.

all tips are welcome thanks

Alternatively I can drop the 3 HS deffdreads for:

2x Dakkajet extra supa shoota, RPJ, fighter ace
and take 3 more lootas, Likely split the now 12 total into
2x 6 loota squads

Someone else suggested that the jets were great for drawing fire away from approaching army while throwing down a literal ton of lead.
Just gotta get the models for the dakkajet

Also... "Our weapons are useless" says if a unit is locked in combat with a unit it cannot hurt. AND grenades are only 1 per turn per unit. Can the unit run away if the only means to hurt my deffdread is krak grenades? As a krak grenade has a chance to on a 6 to glance. alternatively can the unit run if only one model from the unit has the ability to hurt it?

I'd much rather take the fire support than 3 Deff Dreads since the likelihood of them getting into combat is lower than in 5th with pre-measuring and random charge length.

Bonzofever wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Forgeworld is a part of GW. I'm pretty sure that an official GW store would order forgeworld models and books for you, I know my stores do.

Well I know that bit But I'm telling you, FW models can't be found in French GW stores, except on Games Day, or perhaps in a couple of larger stores. You may order FW kits online from the store, but it really doesn't mean they'll accept it in a tournament. That's a fact!

Jidmah wrote:In addition, almost all apocalypse rules are printed and maintained by forgeworld. Unless you resort to forgeworld rules, you cannot play apocalypse using 6th edition.
[...] TL;DR: Forgeworld books are the official books when playing apocalypse. GW just decided to print one, too. It will most likely never happen again.

Yeah. Anyhow, when I ask about Apocalypse games, the official GW staff use the official GW rulebook. That's another fact.
As long as the new Ork Dex (Fall 2013?) yet has to be released, I think they'll stick to the GW Apocalypse book.
I don't know how they deal with Structure Points, I guess they *do* look for the FW update, and then cook homemade rules.

All in all I agree with you. From a GW seller's point of view, though: how can you sell a Stompa if you don't have the rules in a book next to it?
I believe this is why they never refer to FW and always elude the topic. At least, at my local store.

Edit: Forgot to mention the "not-written-in-French" part. Which makes it easier to understand...

Keep in mind that the people at your store are just random guys wearing GW T-shirts, making random decisions. There is no such thing as an official word from GW telling them to do what you describe, and employees aren't required to know anything about rules, so some simply don't. More likely, they had the book they have provided by GW as part of their store supply (like painting tables or similar stuff) and can't be bothered to get the new books. It is similar here, they don't stock the Imperial Armor books, but at least the people organizing apoc games are aware of their existence and enforce those rules, even if they are present as a pirated copy in form of a laptop or iPad. I know one store even has a bunch of IA books which were donated by a player quitting the game.

Oh, and there aren't any German Imperial Armours either

I actually went to a tourney where Imperial Armour Apoc. 2nd Ed. was allowed.

I took two Lifta Wagons, they didn't seem to mind (this was in 5th, though it still wrecked face).

Obviously that's a random tourney at a GW battle bunker and in no way endorsed, but the stuff with '40K Approved' in said book seems to be more accepted by people.

All the other Ork units have a stated FoC slot, people were quite happy to assume it was an oversight on FW's part (as that does happen a lot) and go with it being heavy support.

I imagine it and the other stuff will be updated soon, aside from IA: Aeronautica, there aren't general rules for flakkaguns (by the way, flakk trukks are awesome, dirt cheap and have Interceptor).

Yes I think Flakka Trakks are awesome. I believe they are to be added to the upcoming Ork Dex in 2013: there is a list of upcoming GW releases on the web that makes me think we might have some "ex-Apocalypse" units added to a standard 40K codex. In addition, as the Stompa is a GW kit I expect to find its rules in a GW rulebook for 6th edition. I do hope so, tbh

I can see that happening as well. I mean we have fliers in 6th, which previously were only seen in IA or APOC. And the Trygon was an APOC only before wasnt it?

@keltikhoa: The "1 per unit" is only on thrown grenades. In close combat, they all may use them.

keltikhoa wrote:
Also... "Our weapons are useless" says if a unit is locked in combat with a unit it cannot hurt. AND grenades are only 1 per turn per unit. Can the unit run away if the only means to hurt my deffdread is krak grenades? As a krak grenade has a chance to on a 6 to glance. alternatively can the unit run if only one model from the unit has the ability to hurt it?

Units can now hit you with a grenade per model. This GREATLY increases the likelihood you'll get glanced to death in a single round. It's not the average, but it's very possible.

I wonder if there's any chance of them using the FAQ to state that only one model can plant a grenade on a vehicle in Assault. Probably not. That change combined with Hull Points just marginalizes walkers across the board to the point where I don't see many armies taking them at all anymore. GW will probably just make us deal with it, and give some special rule to Dreadnaughts in future codexes to protect them from Krak grenades and Melta Bombs or something.

I've been seriously thinking about introducing some Mega Dreads into my Ork list to see if I can breathe new life into Ork Walkers, but of course the price of admission is pretty high there.

I've always thought that the Stompa would be a good addition to the standard Ork Codex. Tweak the rules a little bit to remove Apocalypse weapons, and follow normal Walker rules with a lot of Hull Points, and it'd be pretty viable without being overpowered. Even if you gave it 6 Hull points, a Stompa is still comparable in power with a Landraider as long as it doesn't have Apocalypse weapons on it.

The nerf to the Lifta-Droppa was sad. I don't know why the Orks can't have powerful weapons like every other codex out there does. When the flier supplement came out I was just shaking my head that we didn't get a single weapon that didn't closely duplicate something we already had. Yeah, I know we deal mostly with volume of fire, and that's all well-and-good but sometimes we need punching power. All our weapons are mid-strength and mid-AP. Even our powerful guns like the KillKannon is only S7 AP3, and its larger cousin the Boomgun is S8 AP3. Both guns are crazy expensive compared to what other codexes can field for the same price. Yeah, I'm just bitching now, so I'll stop.

All of the weapons on the Dakkajet are mounted in fixed positions. I assume they can only fire at targets that are directly in front of them after they move?

I thought I heard something about the supa shootas being able to target units it passed over that turn, but I can't seem to find those rules anywhere...

Dr. What wrote:Has anybody tried a Trukk rush since 6th came out?

I have.

warboss (I sometimes proxy him in mega armor)

(big mek) I desided to dump kff mek for dakkajet

4 trukks of boyz (no bosspoles)

7 stormboyz (has pk nob like trukk boyz)

2 rokkit buggies

dakkajet wiht all goodies

1000 points

So far I have played against gk, nurgle deamons, slaanesh deamons and blood ravens. I have only lost to gk and that was purely because I did not know special rules for dakkajet, did not know I can refuse challenges, extremely lucky rolling gk player and got bad warlord trait. I'm hoping I can get a rematch against him.

wtwlf123 wrote:All of the weapons on the Dakkajet are mounted in fixed positions. I assume they can only fire at targets that are directly in front of them after they move?

I thought I heard something about the supa shootas being able to target units it passed over that turn, but I can't seem to find those rules anywhere...

This has been buggin me too. I personally have played dakkajet firing it's guns from the nose with 45 degree arc. Thing to note is that dakkajet box comes a grot sponsor which is clearly pintle mounted.

The pintle-mounted grot sponsons are for the other Ork planes. The Dakkajet doesn't use them.

The 45 degree arc is the proper way to calculate it, but you need to do it for each weapon. If the target is out of any number of the supa shoota's 45' arcs, those guns can't shoot at the target. Which means that the target is going to need to be at least 6-8" in front of the Jet after it moves in order to fire all 6 guns at it (maybe even farther). Kinda a bummer.

Which leads me to another question... how are people modeling the 3rd TL supa shoota? Just using the TL big shoota in the nose as a "counts-as" set?

I modelled mine using the mounts for the supashootas you get in the bommer variant.

wtwlf123 wrote:.

Which leads me to another question... how are people modeling the 3rd TL supa shoota? Just using the TL big shoota in the nose as a "counts-as" set?

Well, I just ordered my Bommer, but aren't there pieces to do 2 guns mounted below the nose? So wouldn't that be twin-linked (2 barrels being twin-linked in some cases)?

wtwlf123 wrote:The pintle-mounted grot sponsons are for the other Ork planes. The Dakkajet doesn't use them.

The 45 degree arc is the proper way to calculate it, but you need to do it for each weapon. If the target is out of any number of the supa shoota's 45' arcs, those guns can't shoot at the target. Which means that the target is going to need to be at least 6-8" in front of the Jet after it moves in order to fire all 6 guns at it (maybe even farther). Kinda a bummer.

Which leads me to another question... how are people modeling the 3rd TL supa shoota? Just using the TL big shoota in the nose as a "counts-as" set?

The box comes with three pairs of supa-shootas, just use all of them. Only the grot gunners use big shootas, all other bits are supa-shootaz (including the nose ones), even though they massively vary in size.

mrfantastical wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

By the way: Neither IA:8 nor IA:ASE allow lifta-droppers to be taken in regular Codex: Ork armies.

I believe the only things in IA:8 that are allowed in Codex: Orks are:

*Grot Tanks
*Mekboy junka
*Kustom-mega Dredd
*Big Trakk
*Gun Trukk
*Gun Wagon
*all Ork special characters
*Gargantuan Squigoth (option from Death Skullz Warboss Skalk Bluetoof)

Actually, not even the Meka-Dredd - since it requires a Mega Dredd to be in the Codex Ork army, but the Mega-Dredd has no entry saying where it goes in a Codex Ork army, it itself is invalid.

*shrugs shoulders*

Grot Mega Tanks, however, can also be included - as a Fast Attack option.

Need to find time to use my Grot Tanks again, those KMB's are in high demand. May as well risk the Get's Hot for that str8 ap2.

I am finding an interesting balance between accepting and denying challenges - the latter to allow for many more attacks to push in. Say, for example, refusing with my Nob, so that all my boyz get to lob their attacks into the target. In situations where the target may have a high invul save, this would be a preferable situation. Or, as in one situation, having my Warboss refuse a challenge against a Necron Overlord (with 3++), so that the rest of my Nobs can chop away at him.

A question though - I've really enjoyed having Mekboys inside battlewagons, but anyone have any suggestions / perceptions on using Burnas or Lootas for the Job? Additionally, how large? I currently use 12 Burnas, two of which are Meks. It works well, but looking to see if there's a more efficient way to go about it.

Gah fast attack?! I made a thread a while ago, where we were speculating how 6th/new codex would change the face of Orks. And I speculated that I think Fast attack would be a the new Heavy Support. And looks like Im right. DAKKAjets or Grot tanks?

Kharrak wrote:

mrfantastical wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

By the way: Neither IA:8 nor IA:ASE allow lifta-droppers to be taken in regular Codex: Ork armies.

I believe the only things in IA:8 that are allowed in Codex: Orks are:

*Grot Tanks
*Mekboy junka
*Kustom-mega Dredd
*Big Trakk
*Gun Trukk
*Gun Wagon
*all Ork special characters
*Gargantuan Squigoth (option from Death Skullz Warboss Skalk Bluetoof)

Actually, not even the Meka-Dredd - since it requires a Mega Dredd to be in the Codex Ork army, but the Mega-Dredd has no entry saying where it goes in a Codex Ork army, it itself is invalid.

*shrugs shoulders*

Grot Mega Tanks, however, can also be included - as a Fast Attack option.

Need to find time to use my Grot Tanks again, those KMB's are in high demand. May as well risk the Get's Hot for that str8 ap2.

I am finding an interesting balance between accepting and denying challenges - the latter to allow for many more attacks to push in. Say, for example, refusing with my Nob, so that all my boyz get to lob their attacks into the target. In situations where the target may have a high invul save, this would be a preferable situation. Or, as in one situation, having my Warboss refuse a challenge against a Necron Overlord (with 3++), so that the rest of my Nobs can chop away at him.

A question though - I've really enjoyed having Mekboys inside battlewagons, but anyone have any suggestions / perceptions on using Burnas or Lootas for the Job? Additionally, how large? I currently use 12 Burnas, two of which are Meks. It works well, but looking to see if there's a more efficient way to go about it.

I've been running Loota Wagons in the past 10 games ( 15 Lootas + Battlewagon), which has been one of the best units in our codex for me. In all the games I've played I've had my wagon blown up only once, and I usually run with 2. I bubble wrap them with shoota Boyz, & Kannons and just shoot the entire game. The versatility, range, and fire power of the Loota wagon is what makes my build work.

Also I don't see where you're required to have a Mega-Dread to take a Meka-Dread in the Codex: .

Jidmah wrote:

wtwlf123 wrote:The pintle-mounted grot sponsons are for the other Ork planes. The Dakkajet doesn't use them.

The 45 degree arc is the proper way to calculate it, but you need to do it for each weapon. If the target is out of any number of the supa shoota's 45' arcs, those guns can't shoot at the target. Which means that the target is going to need to be at least 6-8" in front of the Jet after it moves in order to fire all 6 guns at it (maybe even farther). Kinda a bummer.

Which leads me to another question... how are people modeling the 3rd TL supa shoota? Just using the TL big shoota in the nose as a "counts-as" set?

The box comes with three pairs of supa-shootas, just use all of them. Only the grot gunners use big shootas, all other bits are supa-shootaz (including the nose ones), even though they massively vary in size.

Oh okay cool. I thought they were Big Shootas since they're so much smaller than the wing-mounted Supa Shootas.

Cheers.