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In case anybody's interested in contributing, I've started a thread in an attempt to fix Dread Bash:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/482963.page#4877895

Anvildude wrote:
I buy Stikkbomms for all my Orks.

For what reason if you don't mind me asking? We go very low on init and only 1 little blast with no ap kinda sux...

Well, first off, I started my Ork army with the intention of paying as little real cash as possible for it. I can currently participate comfortably in Apoc games, and I've spent maybe $200 US on it (granted, not the prettiest of armies, but chock full of Orky injenoowity.) So more points per model is great. My only mob of Boyz are 'Ard Boyz, too.

Second, it goes with my All or Nothing ideology. I figure, either pay the bare minimum for everything in order to not worry about it and spam, or go whole hog giving it every chance to succeed. There may not be many situations which call for Stikkbomms, but by Mork, when one comes a' callin', I'll be ready for it.


Also, the moddeling options are neat.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Rejn wrote:
They are armored walkers, against infantry, 5th edition made kans pretty tough unless you had somethig to fight a walker with, now they are utter pansies.

As stated before, the only thing they are good at/for is grotzookas, I used to use them as tank can openers, but they don't have the staying power for that anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before 6th killa kans didn't do a whole lot of cowering, they could beat up on most anything thrown at them, especially a line of infantry. But I am compairing 5th with 6th, as was asked for

in 5th they did plenty of cowering, read your codex entry on them lol

To me, Killa Kans are suppose to be immune to small arms fire and rush into mid range and join the waaagh once they arrive or the kans are needed to hold down a flank or the like. Beleive it or not, Killa kans are not usless they are still an easily spammable strength 10 ap 2 array of fighters who get 3 attacks on the charge, sure they have horrible WS but let me make an observation for you here.

what does a tank do against that other than die because it's still hit on 3+?

What do terminators who have no nades do against that other than pray they had storm shields to survive the attack because anything capable of hurting them are init 1 weaponry and they are init 2?

What can boyz do against them with no nob? Do you know any ork player who buys nades? I don't

What will a carnifrex do against these guys other than die because of init 1?

So ultimately the purpose of the kan is to spray about 6-15 wounds or so with their grotzookas before they charge into close combat... and you are mad because you didn't realize your enemy had ways of dealing with you? Who's fault is that the Kans... or you for charging that enemy who attacks before you with tools able to kill you. That is like charging a group of Howling banshee's with gretchin...

Killa kans are just fine in my opinion i use to run them religiously and I still see good results from friends who still use them, I have enough kans and dreds to run a proper kan wall (9 kans + 2 dreds) and i still know they are very viable infact the only REAL weakness i think they have now besides 2 hull points is the fact that nades hit walkers on something other than 6's and to you that makes them usless? Maybe you should consider something with a higher invulnerability like Battle Wagons carrying nobz instead.

I already stated that they were great at killing most other vehicles, but right now with only 2 HP and nothing except a 5+ to save them they have deminished greatly in thier battlefield strength. I too have 2 dreads and 9 kans! And back in 5th never lost a game with my kan wall! In 6th they are drastically weaker and I have yet to win a game with my kan wall, they ONLY thing that has changed was the rules set... It's not me nor my ability to play, I'm stating they got weaker! Alot weaker!

I'm happy for you that your kans are still working for you, actually I couldn't really care any less in all honesty. Kans aren't working for me now and I'm selling mine, want another set of kans and dreads?

All vehicles got weaker, and kans took an extra hurt seeing as they ommited dice rolls of 1 or 2 thanks to amored plates, I believe the same happend to immobilized in 5th as well.

Please stop arguing lore with gameplay, lore also stated that the first thing the grots did when given thier new metal bodies was wreck havok on everything around them while killing the boyz who used to pick on him and kick and abuse him before. Aside from all that I'm talking about thier gameplay value in terms of thier cowering.

Maybee I need to attempt to run them differently than in 5th seeing as they are no longer a spear head unit. But there's other things in our army that can do what kans do now better and/or cheaperthan the kans do, and kans still have no staying power on the field, str 5 weapons can still glance them to death easily and they aren't gonna close range with a tank without meeting some infantry with grenades that are gonna prevent them from harmng a tank.

So yes I am upset that my kans got nerfed, but I've moved on. As I'm now doing with this conversation cause it's not productive and neither of us is gonna listen to the other, so I wish you all the best in your games

Ailaros: You lists has a lot of flaws, but there really is little point in arguing about them over and over again. Borrow those models, try fighting good playeres with it, see how it does.
I can see that list getting crushed very easily by your common guard, space wolves and ork lists. You hardly have anything to handle MEQ and their vehicles, so Blood Angels, Codex Marines and Grey Knights will also give your a run for your money. You can't handle monstrous creatures or close combat experts so nidz and daemons will most likely tear you apart as well. Actually, you really can't handle anything but light infantry and light vehicles.
Oh, and a KFF mek may not take a combi-skorcha, but he can take a burna.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

what does a tank do against that other than die because it's still hit on 3+?

A tank would move out of their way and keep snap-firing. Or shoot an ordnance weapon at them and attempt to kill two at once. I had a vindicator single-handedly wiping out nine kanz in one game, without me being able to hurt it, except for a few glances to the side.

What do terminators who have no nades do against that other than pray they had storm shields to survive the attack because anything capable of hurting them are init 1 weaponry and they are init 2?

That would be awesome, if kanz could actually kill all the terminators. On average they kill 2.5 terminators on the charge, 1.7 if charged. Assuming a regular landraider full of TDA, they simply kill all your kanz in return. If there is even a single stormshield in the unit, you'll most likely not kill anything. If there is a character, you're boned anyways. Oh, and overwatch with CML, assaultcannons or heavy flamers can also hurt kanz. Besides, quite a lot of terminators can still hurt kanz at initiative, due to rending(Mark of the Wulfen), bonus strength (Frost Blade, Hammerhand, Furious Charge, Power Maul) or simply having krak grenades (GK Terminators).

What can boyz do against them with no nob? Do you know any ork player who buys nades? I don't

Considering that ork grenades are S3, they are irrelevant anyways. The real question is, what do kanz do against boyz if they have a nob? Or a warboss? They get killed, that's what they do.

What will a carnifrex do against these guys other than die because of init 1?

Oh yeah, you mean if you get the charge on the only MC in the game going at I1? Which will totally tear your kanz appart, stomp all over them, and then convert the gretchin inside into biomass if it gets the charge instead?
Not to mention the slight chance (about 40%) of your nine attacks not killing it, and the carnifex getting a kanned meal anyways. All, of course, assuming that the carnifex was not buffed by any of the psychers and is fielded alone, rather than in a larger unit size.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but you really are cherry-picking highly unlikely scenarios in which the kanz really are ok.

So ultimately the purpose of the kan is to spray about 6-15 wounds or so with their grotzookas before they charge into close combat... and you are mad because you didn't realize your enemy had ways of dealing with you? Who's fault is that the Kans... or you for charging that enemy who attacks before you with tools able to kill you. That is like charging a group of Howling banshee's with gretchin...

First of all, gretchin will most likely kill howling banshees if they charge them.
Second, the list of enemy that can't handle you, is pretty short: You can basically kill troops (none coming from the IoM though), ranged fire support, and non-combat walkers. If your opponent plays vanilla space marines, grey knights, space wolves blood angels, black templar, dark angels or chaos space marines, there is not a single non-vehicle unit on the board that your kanz could handle in close combat.

Killa kans are just fine in my opinion i use to run them religiously and I still see good results from friends who still use them, I have enough kans and dreds to run a proper kan wall (9 kans + 2 dreds) and i still know they are very viable infact the only REAL weakness i think they have now besides 2 hull points is the fact that nades hit walkers on something other than 6's and to you that makes them usless? Maybe you should consider something with a higher invulnerability like Battle Wagons carrying nobz instead.

Religion is the opposite of reason. Besides, I already gave a conclusive list of things which make kanz bad. If you choose to turn a blind eye to half of those, there is nothing I can do.

@ rejn

Ugh... never said i am using kan wall, infact i said I have seen KANS used well in a friends army not kan wall.

Arguing fluff is harmless especially when it's 1 sentence so i think your over-reacting to my posts

You should probably take a second and realize someone isn't attacking you when they say "You are doomcalling"

@ jidmah

Sorry bout the vindicator that's rough but arguably would happen to anyone kans are not the flaw to that circumstance they are just the example, war walkers, sentiels dreadnoughts, hell even predators or land raiders fall victim to a vindicator pie-plates. I think the example is bad but this is only bad because of the no longer 1/2 strength rule which helped just as much as it hurt IMO since kans can still have a 4 in (or 1 kan per pie plate) coherency. far as a tank moving off or away this doesn't make alot of sense unless you barely caught the thing. In your own circumstance a vindicator shouldn't be able to fire it's pie-plate due to snap shotting, and you should be able to catch it again next round unless you roll a poor charge range. Since a tank can't ram unless moving cruising speed this also means the tank can only retreat not move past so it's not like you don't have options there.

Your termie examples are not really the norm i see in combat but they are valid comments i suppose. I am the type of person who gambles with an intention I'd charge termies even if they had a krak shot coming my way because even if it hits it needs a 4+ to pene me and even then a 1 in 3 chance it impacts me severly and a 1 in 6 chance + a 50/50 split it removes my dreadnought close combat weapon before i get in. considering the rending is never a good idea to run at I agree with you but the extra strength items are normally moot if you are charging them if i not most of these options other than frost blades (which can only glance and power mauls which are the only legitamate worry amongst the list I've seen other than rending wulfen. The krak grenade GK's ... come on grey knights have more nades than a juggler knows what to so with >.>. This honestly boils down to splitting hairs on this part I think man... we both are very smart players (at least i'd like to think I am). We both know what not to charge and every bit of advice like (Kans > Termies) has it's exceptions but this really is only noted as being grey knights and Space wolves (though most don't take mark because they won't be able to use wargear)

the 30 orks vs 3 kans is amazingly one sided in ork favor though because the kans cannot put the attacks where they want you do long as you have at least 6 other orks in base to base which we both know shouldn't be hard. The nob is the one who does all the damage of course but in this example it's just a tarpit scenario. and our nades aren't krak obviously (God i wish they were...) but most armies can take them IMO THIS is the biggest weakness of kans now and days.

I am scratching my head at you saying I am cherry picking though, It's generally smarter to combat base lines rather than upgraded lines for things like FNP or the like because honestly who would attack a carnifrex with just 3 kans in the first place? I'd have a wave of boyz backing them always. And because I normally plunk kannon shots and rokkits from my kans before charging the Frex always goes down with no issue for me even with buffs... >.>

I'm shocked you think gretchin beat banshees however, init 10 multi attacks that actually hit 3+ and wound 3+ before the gretchin dies due to no armor save. While the Gretchin would hit on 5+ due to low WS and wound on 5+ due to low strength and then give the banshee's 4+ armors if we were lucky enough to actually wound. So 60 attacks turns to 20 hit which turns to 6.5 wounds which reduces down to about 3 wounds, keep in mind these numbers would be a full squad of 30 grots on the charge not being so much as hurt by the banshee's attacks which happen before init.

Just so you know Jidmah I agree with you about kanz i don't run them at this time because I think they aren't very potent and I would rather have battlewagons or Kannons. HOWEVER i don't think they are god awful, they serve a minor function of strength 10 vehicle cracking in CC and immune to strength 4 and lower gunfire which is handy. In a friendly no hostility game they aren't a bad choice since they are cheap but i would personally rather have something else. I think both you and rejn might just be reading into my thoughts without giving it the proper forethought first. I am not saying Kans are good I am saying no need to be pissy about their prefromance I am sure either one of us could easily make due with these units added to our list and probably see some shine from them if we tried. But you and I aren't those types of people to fight with what we ultimately know isn't the best tools.

In short, It's just a killa kan this edition nerfed the most powerful tactic of last edition for orks but I can speak from personal experience and say Kanwall last edition was the cheesiest thing I ever ran and I always felt self conscious about running them. The model is still very awesome looking and I am tempted to use them in my small 500-1000 pt leagues but in a big bad game yeah they are one of the last things I'll suggest. But my original reason on combating the view that cans are worthless is because if you charge an IG line with Krak nades the forging a narrative or using your imagination rather it makes sense that a charging group of soliders running at moving pill boxes armed with nades might pull a "D-day" style move and bombard these cowering kans with lasgun fire to distract them and a few brave soldiers due the needed deed while dodging whirling buzzsaws and snipping scissors.

Viable vs suggested ... suggested wins. Viable just means I could make it work in a pinch.

Just calm down folks make your own lists and try to take forum posts with a grain of salt and/or humility please no need to get ugly or butthurt about it

Rejn wrote:

...Kans aren't working for me now and I'm selling mine, want another set of kans and dreads?

So yes I am upset that my kans got nerfed...

Rejn Ive been dancing with GW for a long time.

The way GW seems to use "sale of units" to determine how to update a new codex, I would just take your Kans and Deff Dreds, tuck them away nice and safe, and wait till the next ork codex in a few years.

A new ork codex is probably gonna make sluggas and choppas, flash gitz, kommandos, storm boyz, dreds and kans great but make lootas, and battle wagons suck. Cause Lootas and the BW are selling but those other things are not.

Except for that really bad, old Chaos Codex, I rarely look forward to a new codex cause it means shelving units that have been working and either touching up or buying crappy units that are now good. Each new codex means dropping $100+ dollars to get my army working again.

All it takes is for them to say "Kans aren't selling, lets make them like space marine terminators! with SS/TH! " and kans would be right back in the game with every ork player needing five of them.

@ Worrzog,
you came off as argueing that kans haven't deminshed, and that they are just about as good as they used to be, truth is someone asked how they compaired and I was making the comparrison to how they worked in both editions and you jumped in.

It can be a mixed message you not attacking somebody when your telling them that they suck at playing kans and need to switch to a model that is easier to play. It is insulting, especially since kans are the first thing I started rolling with. TBH Kans, nobs, and deffkoptas are all I really know of the ork list right now.

I don't math hammer, I just play the units and see what works and what doesn't. Right now kans don't work, at least not the same way they used to.

I did get defensive, I felt you were attacking my points of view, but you say it's a misunderstanding so it's all good



@phydox,

thanks for the heads up, I've only been competing at my FLGS's 2k points level for about 6 months. I first started getting pieces for my army in january this year. I'll take all the advice I can get from you veterans

Rejn wrote:All vehicles got weaker

Yes, they did, but foot units got weakerER. Relative to 5th ed, vehicles are weaker, but relative to foot in 6th, vehicles got stronger

Rejn wrote: Kans aren't working for me now and I'm selling mine, want another set of kans and dreads?

Absolutely. If you think that they're that worthless, I assume they're going to be going for extra cheap?

Jidmah wrote:Ailaros: You lists has a lot of flaws, but there really is little point in arguing about them over and over again.

No, there really isn't if you're just going to make assertions. I find it curious that you can't see how space marines would fail armor saves in the face of all that dakka. I furthermore fail to see the problem against nidzilla, as there is more than enough firepower to handle the gribblies, and lots of high-strength firepower for the bigger ones, who will, on occasion, fail armor saves. I guess S8 rokkits can't do anything against vehicles after all?

In any case, you're clearly very emotionally charged about ork vehicles being terrible right now, so there's nothing that can be done but to profit by it. Perhaps you'd be interested in offloading a bunch of minis that you consider junk now?

There is one additional bit of info regarding Kanz which has yet to be addressed and that is mobility. Kanz were always slow and could either Run or Shoot but in 6th now what ever the Kanz were chasing can move 6" and fire Heavy Snaps or if a Vehicle, move 12" and fire Snap. Therefore Kanz took a relative hit compared to their prey.

Right now they way I see it, Kanz are kinda like MANz and kinda like Big Gunz. In the end, their weapons are too short ranged and any enemy unit can run circles around them. If we had Drop Pods that could drop a unit of 3, or Tellyportas, we could through Kanz at the enemy, but for now, I am done running Kanz.

I started playing Kult Of Speed 10 years ago and am looking forward to using Bikes, DeffKoptas, and the closest thing we have to a MC, The BikerBoss.

 PipeAlley wrote:
There is one additional bit of info regarding Kanz which has yet to be addressed and that is mobility. Kanz were always slow and could either Run or Shoot but in 6th now what ever the Kanz were chasing can move 6" and fire Heavy Snaps or if a Vehicle, move 12" and fire Snap. Therefore Kanz took a relative hit compared to their prey.

Right now they way I see it, Kanz are kinda like MANz and kinda like Big Gunz. In the end, their weapons are too short ranged and any enemy unit can run circles around them. If we had Drop Pods that could drop a unit of 3, or Tellyportas, we could through Kanz at the enemy, but for now, I am done running Kanz.

I started playing Kult Of Speed 10 years ago and am looking forward to using Bikes, DeffKoptas, and the closest thing we have to a MC, The BikerBoss.

I agree with your logic. But when it comes to Bastions and Fortress's I'm thinking Kanz might be our best way to try and deal with them.

Recently played a game with the following:

1 KFF Mek, cybork, with burna
1 SAG MEK cybork, ammo runt

3 25 boy mobs of slugga boyz, each with a pk nob placed where he could not be challanged, but would advance into the assault.

2 20 boy mobs of shoot boyz, nob only had pole upgrade.

11 tank bustas, pk nob, and 2 hammers.
13 lootas.


Deployment was DoW, and Mission was Emporor's will. it took my opponent 6 turns to clear me off my objective, and i still had a denial unit in range. i also had a nearly untouched unit of boyz on his objective, which was contested by a loan seargent who would not die.

before you ask, he had tailored his list to include mass templates, and had 2 storm ravens (Angry Marines played as BA) I had cold dice whenever i shot at anything armored, and he had the ravens alpha strike my tank bustas the first chance he got.

I think that we should get something akin to a WebWay Portal in our next codex. That would be absolutely insane. Charging 90 boyz out of one or two of those would wreck face.

@ anvildude,

you know you can have the stikkbombs modeled without them actually having stikkbombs.
As for the points if your looking to waste points and have as few models as possible, field a warboss and ghaz, and the rest manz and nobs, maybee some stormboyz if it's your fancy, wasting the points on stikkbombs is kinda like toting grots in a BW

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:3 25 boy mobs of slugga boyz, each with a pk nob placed where he could not be challanged

I would be very, very careful about this if I were you. The only ways I've seen that justify a nob not being challengeable have been an interpretation of the rules that invalidate the entire challenge system. For example, if you're going to tout how if a model isn't engaged, it can't be challenged, then nobody can ever challenge anymore, as no one is engaged at the time challenges are issued. Elsewhere in the rules for challenging, it says that you have to move the models as far as possible, even moving other models out of the way, in order to get the challenge models into base contact. This rather implies that they didn't intend distance of models to be pertinent to whether someone can receive a challenge or not.

Imstead of starting that arguement back up can we all just assume everyone has read that thread?

We can't, actually (or else people wouldn't make comments about keeping nobz out of challenges). In any case, it's more of a public service announcement than an attempt to derail the thread.

Carry on.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

@ jidmah

Sorry bout the vindicator that's rough but arguably would happen to anyone kans are not the flaw to that circumstance they are just the example, war walkers, sentiels dreadnoughts, hell even predators or land raiders fall victim to a vindicator pie-plates. I think the example is bad but this is only bad because of the no longer 1/2 strength rule which helped just as much as it hurt IMO since kans can still have a 4 in (or 1 kan per pie plate) coherency. far as a tank moving off or away this doesn't make alot of sense unless you barely caught the thing. In your own circumstance a vindicator shouldn't be able to fire it's pie-plate due to snap shotting, and you should be able to catch it again next round unless you roll a poor charge range. Since a tank can't ram unless moving cruising speed this also means the tank can only retreat not move past so it's not like you don't have options there.

That's theory though. You can't march kanz at max coherency across the board unless you want to be moving through difficult terrain a lot, and they can't jump over impassible terrain anyways. You shouldn't take three hits from a large blast, but two can happen quite often.
In addition, my opponent was quite a good player (Black Templar player), he used PotMS to move and shoot, always having terrain or even his own units in the way. Even without PotM, kanz move 6", vindicator moves 6" and can shoot at 24" range. It also was just a random example. Replace vindicator with Maticore, LRBT, Boomwagen, OSR or similar, and you get the same result.

Your termie examples are not really the norm i see in combat but they are valid comments i suppose.

How so? I pretty much named every terminator unit in the game besides Deathwing and Codex Marine shooty terminators. All others have access to one of more those options to hurt kanz.

I am the type of person who gambles with an intention I'd charge termies even if they had a krak shot coming my way because even if it hits it needs a 4+ to pene me and even then a 1 in 3 chance it impacts me severly and a 1 in 6 chance + a 50/50 split it removes my dreadnought close combat weapon before i get in. considering the rending is never a good idea to run at I agree with you but the extra strength items are normally moot if you are charging them if i not most of these options other than frost blades (which can only glance and power mauls which are the only legitamate worry amongst the list I've seen other than rending wulfen.

The problem is, two glances kill a kan. Definitely. You can't spread the hull point losses around like in 5th, so taking two glances and/or pens means one dead kan, which is much worse than losing a DCCW.

The krak grenade GK's ... come on grey knights have more nades than a juggler knows what to so with >.>. This honestly boils down to splitting hairs on this part I think man... we both are very smart players (at least i'd like to think I am). We both know what not to charge and every bit of advice like (Kans > Termies) has it's exceptions but this really is only noted as being grey knights and Space wolves (though most don't take mark because they won't be able to use wargear)

Yeah, but keep in mind that were talking about non-assault terminators here. Assault terminators always bring storm shields and TH, so they might even come at the kanz by themselves. Shooty terminators might also just move away from them - that's what relentless is for.

the 30 orks vs 3 kans is amazingly one sided in ork favor though because the kans cannot put the attacks where they want you do long as you have at least 6 other orks in base to base which we both know shouldn't be hard. The nob is the one who does all the damage of course but in this example it's just a tarpit scenario. and our nades aren't krak obviously (God i wish they were...) but most armies can take them IMO THIS is the biggest weakness of kans now and days.

The nob still hits on 3s, so it kills one or two kanz a turn. Hardly a tarpit.

I am scratching my head at you saying I am cherry picking though, It's generally smarter to combat base lines rather than upgraded lines for things like FNP or the like because honestly who would attack a carnifrex with just 3 kans in the first place? I'd have a wave of boyz backing them always. And because I normally plunk kannon shots and rokkits from my kans before charging the Frex always goes down with no issue for me even with buffs... >.>

Well, it's really the only time kanz have chance at taking on any MC in the game and emerge victorious ever. And it gets +2I when on the charge - which brings me to the next point, why should you get the charge on the carnifex, and not the other way around? The kanz aren't exactly faster than it is. If you bring boyz anyways, why did you bring kanz? From experience, a mob with a pk nob will reliably put down a carnifex in two player turns.

I'm shocked you think gretchin beat banshees however, init 10 multi attacks that actually hit 3+ and wound 3+ before the gretchin dies due to no armor save. While the Gretchin would hit on 5+ due to low WS and wound on 5+ due to low strength and then give the banshee's 4+ armors if we were lucky enough to actually wound. So 60 attacks turns to 20 hit which turns to 6.5 wounds which reduces down to about 3 wounds, keep in mind these numbers would be a full squad of 30 grots on the charge not being so much as hurt by the banshee's attacks which happen before init.

Howling banshees have one attack base, and two ccw, for a total of 20 attacks. You lose three of those due to runtherds, then hit 11, wound and kill about 8 gretchin. 22 gretchin and three runtherds strike back, hitting on 4+ (banshees are WS4), so 22 hits from gretchin and 5 from runtherds, 7 wounds from gretchin and 3 from runtherds, killing a total of 5 banshees. Unless the gretchin run away even with rerolls, the units wipe out each other. Seems like a great idea to me. You could just charge and crush them with boyz though.

In short, It's just a killa kan this edition nerfed the most powerful tactic of last edition for orks but I can speak from personal experience and say Kanwall last edition was the cheesiest thing I ever ran and I always felt self conscious about running them.

Agree, they were too good. I never lost a single game with my kan wall, even when I just assembled them and had now idea what to do with them beside putting them in front of my boyz and and a kff behind them. I think the new cover rules by themselves were enough of a nerf for the kan wall, but kanz got hit by pretty much everything they changed. They were jacks of all trades with decent survivability before. Take away survivability and all you have left is a unit which can't do anything well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:I agree with your logic. But when it comes to Bastions and Fortress's I'm thinking Kanz might be our best way to try and deal with them.

Oh, my biker boss just recently punched the tower of a fortress of redemption and it blew up, getting the most spectacular first blood ever by killing a total of 31 guardsmen.

You could just charge and crush them with boyz though.

Well duh, very little withstands da Boyz!

That is a very true statement. There is a list of things that is a bad idea to tackle with boyz. But its a small list

 Ailaros wrote:

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:3 25 boy mobs of slugga boyz, each with a pk nob placed where he could not be challanged

I would be very, very careful about this if I were you. The only ways I've seen that justify a nob not being challengeable have been an interpretation of the rules that invalidate the entire challenge system. For example, if you're going to tout how if a model isn't engaged, it can't be challenged, then nobody can ever challenge anymore, as no one is engaged at the time challenges are issued. Elsewhere in the rules for challenging, it says that you have to move the models as far as possible, even moving other models out of the way, in order to get the challenge models into base contact. This rather implies that they didn't intend distance of models to be pertinent to whether someone can receive a challenge or not.

The rules are fine, and you can keep nobz out of challenges. pg 64, If your character and the enemy character are engaged, and they issue/accept a challenge, then you move them into b2b. If either are not engaged, then they can not issue/accept challenges and stay put. You're still skipping/ignoring page 21 where it spells out the purpose of the charge move is to engage as many models as possible.

So after the charge move you will have engaged models.

*just responding so the answer is here as well*
*now back to our regularly scheduled thread*

sirlynchmob wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
There is one additional bit of info regarding Kanz which has yet to be addressed and that is mobility. Kanz were always slow and could either Run or Shoot but in 6th now what ever the Kanz were chasing can move 6" and fire Heavy Snaps or if a Vehicle, move 12" and fire Snap. Therefore Kanz took a relative hit compared to their prey.

Right now they way I see it, Kanz are kinda like MANz and kinda like Big Gunz. In the end, their weapons are too short ranged and any enemy unit can run circles around them. If we had Drop Pods that could drop a unit of 3, or Tellyportas, we could through Kanz at the enemy, but for now, I am done running Kanz.

I started playing Kult Of Speed 10 years ago and am looking forward to using Bikes, DeffKoptas, and the closest thing we have to a MC, The BikerBoss.

I agree with your logic. But when it comes to Bastions and Fortress's I'm thinking Kanz might be our best way to try and deal with them.

Well, to be honest, buildings did not factor into my calculations one iota so I'll give you that one, but I did enjoy Jidmah's response and thus exalted it.

Anvildude wrote:
I buy Stikkbomms for all my Orks.

That's expensive.

 PipeAlley wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
There is one additional bit of info regarding Kanz which has yet to be addressed and that is mobility. Kanz were always slow and could either Run or Shoot but in 6th now what ever the Kanz were chasing can move 6" and fire Heavy Snaps or if a Vehicle, move 12" and fire Snap. Therefore Kanz took a relative hit compared to their prey.

Right now they way I see it, Kanz are kinda like MANz and kinda like Big Gunz. In the end, their weapons are too short ranged and any enemy unit can run circles around them. If we had Drop Pods that could drop a unit of 3, or Tellyportas, we could through Kanz at the enemy, but for now, I am done running Kanz.

I started playing Kult Of Speed 10 years ago and am looking forward to using Bikes, DeffKoptas, and the closest thing we have to a MC, The BikerBoss.

I agree with your logic. But when it comes to Bastions and Fortress's I'm thinking Kanz might be our best way to try and deal with them.

Well, to be honest, buildings did not factor into my calculations one iota so I'll give you that one, but I did enjoy Jidmah's response and thus exalted it.

I wouldnt really worry about bastions and fortresses though. EDL sure, those are a dime a dozen now, but the others, not so much. In bigger games I could see them popping up more, but they get rather pricey fast

Has anybody actually run a Deff Dread this edition?

So can Snikrot still take Ghazzy with him on the backboard edge and Split them up as they walk onto the board and assault the rear armor of two different tanks?

 Vasarto wrote:
So can Snikrot still take Ghazzy with him on the backboard edge and Split them up as they walk onto the board and assault the rear armor of two different tanks?

Cant assault the turn you walk onto the board from reserve, but other than that i believe you are right.

Dr. What wrote:
Has anybody actually run a Deff Dread this edition?

I ran some in a fun game. I reversed the idea of kan wall a bit to do it, 3 dreads behind 2 bwagons full on nobz. Opponent was busy with the wagons so they got into CC. It was against nids so I didnt have to worry about grenades but smash is REALLY good at killing walkers. or any vehicle for that matter. my experience, too many things can kill them ez. MC's eat em easy even if its a non cc oriented MC. Infantry with nades can kill em easy, tanks can kill em easy on the way to em w/o proper screen. I love my deffdreads but yeah they are at best a so so unit now.

Don't the battlewagons outrun the deff dreads?

Did it work for you when deploying on small board edges?

So, all my usual disclaimers in place, I too don't get the point of deff dreads in this edition. Especially compared to kanz. Dreads cost a lot more, for AV12, granted, but really for close combat weapons which are now much, much worse, especially in a world of units that can't hurt walkers being able to voluntarily break from an I2 unit.

Kanz at least are nearly analogous with buggies in the dakka category.