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Possessed come at a high cost.

130 for 5 with a MoS at 145....I really want to run 6 (sacred number) with an Icon in a Rhino.

I know they should be assault terrors, but are they really worth the points in 6th?

Just questioning the....I would love to convert and paint up a unit...but will they be dead in Turn 1?

no they are not worth it. They have never been worth it and likely never will be


Automatically Appended Next Post:
fear is not useful against half the armies out there.
their weapons are random, meaning when you want AP 3 you will get Shred(reroll to wound)
they are signifigantly over costed
chaos has no way to transport them quickly and safely to assault.

consider warp talons, which also have fear, also have the 5++, have basically the same statline. So they are comparable.
They get AP3 and Shred by default. They are jump infantry giving them hammer of wrath and reroll charge distance or 12" ignore terrain moves instead of just fleet. Their marks are cheaper.
All in all Warptalons are better than possessed. Yet Warptalons are flat bad. no one is even considering warp talons. That tells you how bad possessed are.

 Exergy wrote:

All in all Warptalons are better than possessed. Yet Warptalons are flat bad. no one is even considering warp talons. That tells you how bad possessed are.

Lol, I like this guy.

I remember I posted somewhere "Possessed the Cup Half Full" trying to look on the bright side with the 4th ed Possessed... I think 'these' possessed are a bit more solid, but I still wouldn't field them seriously.

As an aside, they are still 'fun' for the casual side of things.

I am going to start off by saying that I have never used possessed, but I do intend to model them, and as a result will likely use them some time in the future. All of this is going to be based on math.

For the 3 different options you can roll plus giving your models a mark of slaanesh facing off against MEQ the math would be as follows: (this is assuming you are not charging this turn)

With shred each model would do an average of 8/27 wounds
With AP 3 each model would do an average of 2/3 wounds
With +1 A and +1I each model would do an average of 1/3 wounds.

Given a 1/3 chance of each you would average 35/81 (or 0.43) wounds.

Compared to a CSM with MoS along with a BP and CCW that does 1/6 wounds (or 0.1666).

Given the cost of each model (I dont have my book with me so this part won't be exact) the killing power of two CSM is slightly less that 1 possessed with roughly the same cost; however with the CSM having more options available and as a result being more versatile the possessed end up being a bit overcosted.

In general I would say not terrible, but just a little too expensive for a very specific unit that becomes hard to deliver.

ThatEdGuy wrote:
I am going to start off by saying that I have never used possessed, but I do intend to model them, and as a result will likely use them some time in the future. All of this is going to be based on math.

For the 3 different options you can roll plus giving your models a mark of slaanesh facing off against MEQ the math would be as follows: (this is assuming you are not charging this turn)

With shred each model would do an average of 8/27 wounds
With AP 3 each model would do an average of 2/3 wounds
With +1 A and +1I each model would do an average of 1/3 wounds.

Given a 1/3 chance of each you would average 35/81 (or 0.43) wounds.

Compared to a CSM with MoS along with a BP and CCW that does 1/6 wounds (or 0.1666).

Given the cost of each model (I dont have my book with me so this part won't be exact) the killing power of two CSM is slightly less that 1 possessed with roughly the same cost; however with the CSM having more options available and as a result being more versatile the possessed end up being a bit overcosted.

and a warptalon is going to average .75 wounds assuming he didnt charge. For about the same price as a possessed.

In general I would say not terrible, but just a little too expensive for a very specific unit that becomes hard to deliver.

They are better than before, since you can rely on their random powers being combat relevant.

But they are still too expensive, especially since there is no easy delivery mechanism to get them into combat. You could take them in a Land Raider, I suppose - toss along an IC for some additional support. (A Warpsmith isn't a bad match, as they give him Fearless, while he can help repair the Land Raider, and brings some Melta to open up enemy transports when they get close to the opponent.)

Still, you are spending a lot of points, when there are lots of other choices in the codex that can fill that some role for much cheaper.

Another option would be to take a huge blob of them, along with Ahriman or Huron, and infiltrate them up close to the enemy. Add in a defensive mark (Nurgle/Tzeentch, or Slaanesh + Icon of Excess) and they can be a big threat right on the enemy's doorstep. And it only costs around 1/3 of your army to do it.

Or just take a small group of them, along with an army with other faster threats (Chaos Spawn, Bikers). Those guys engage the enemy right away, while the Possessed run across the battlefield with fleet - and eventually arrive in order to perform clean-up.

In the end, I think with the new codex, you can find ways to make use of them... but I think they'll still often take a back seat to many of the other superior choices.

What are they competing with this edition? The only other CQC infantry are Khorne Berserkers and CSM. Terminators need a Landraider or Deepstrike, which puts them in their own category. Chosen are only really cool with Abaddon. And Bikers are clearly the best choice in the book, yeh? Right.

Having had lots of experience with Possessed, here's what it boils down to:
CSM have the highest initial damage per point.
Berserkers have the largest damage against 4+ saves.
Possessed have the largest damage over time.

The Possessed's base stats are deceiving. The damage they bring to the table gets more valuable the more you give them. For instance, with MoS, they attack faster than Berserkers or CSM which means they'll get to make more attacks and receive less. The more durable they become, the more damage they'll inflict over the course of the game compared to other choices. That's a harder number to quantify, but it is true.

For an easy example, look at how much less damage Khorne Berserkers inflict on their second turn of combat, especially assuming they took some damage in return.

 DarkHound wrote:
What are they competing with this edition? The only other CQC infantry are Khorne Berserkers and CSM. Terminators need a Landraider or Deepstrike, which puts them in their own category. Chosen are only really cool with Abaddon. And Bikers are clearly the best choice in the book, yeh? Right.

Having had lots of experience with Possessed, here's what it boils down to:
CSM have the highest initial damage per point.
Berserkers have the largest damage against 4+ saves.
Possessed have the largest damage over time.

The Possessed's base stats is deceiving. The damage they bring to the table gets more valuable the more you give them. For instance, with MoS, they attack faster than Berserkers or CSM which means they'll get to make more attacks and receive less. The more durable they become, the more damage they'll inflict over the course of the game compared to other choices. That's a harder number to quantify, but it is true.
.

Still not seeing how they beat out warp talons for damage over time. They have more attacks, so I suppose they will be better against 6+ save orks, but against meq shred and ap3 is better.

The problem is that they swing at I4 and are T4 and only have a 5++. Most importantly they'll swing at the same time as their opponents, so the Warptalons will lose members. In my area, I lose my melee fighters to attrition more than specialized weaponry. Being T5 instead of 4 fixes that. If you had a lot of I4 melee fighters in the area, MoS would make your Possessed more durable simply because you kill the enemy before they can swing.

I used to use possessed all the time before the new codex came out (haven't played the new codex yet). I had a unit of 9 as a bodyguard for kharne in a rhino. Sometimes they were good, sometimes they were bad. They're far too random to be of any use really. The possessed from the 3.5 codex were good because you could choose what they had and they came with a bolt pistol and close combat weapon IIRC.

 DarkHound wrote:
What are they competing with this edition? The only other CQC infantry are Khorne Berserkers and CSM. Terminators need a Landraider or Deepstrike, which puts them in their own category. Chosen are only really cool with Abaddon. And Bikers are clearly the best choice in the book, yeh? Right..

Chosen with Mok/IoK are pretty powerful. Especially since they can pack plenty of assault weapons on top of their considerable melee power. Its nice to actually be able to shoot a transport AND assault its occupants. Something possessed can not do.

So possessed assault that chimera full of melta vets and blow it up. Guess what happens next?

 DarkHound wrote:
The problem is that they swing at I4 and are T4 and only have a 5++. Most importantly they'll swing at the same time as their opponents, so the Warptalons will lose members. In my area, I lose my melee fighters to attrition more than specialized weaponry. Being T5 instead of 4 fixes that. If you had a lot of I4 melee fighters in the area, MoS would make your Possessed more durable simply because you kill the enemy before they can swing.

\




and warp talons can take the same MoS, MoN that possessed can, so they can be T5 or have I5 just like possessed can.

Kevlar wrote:
So possessed assault that chimera full of melta vets and blow it up. Guess what happens next?

They take 1 Melta wound then eat the squad.

But seriously, I understand how useful packing Melta is. They're definitely good, they just don't give you anything CSM can't already do. Since you have to buy CSM, Chosen don't add anything to the army. Now, with Abaddon you can just take Chosen, and you pay marginally more for marginally better, without any redundancy.

 Exergy wrote:
and warp talons can take the same MoS, MoN that possessed can, so they can be T5 or have I5 just like possessed can.

Well slap me silly and call me Nancy. You're right. Excuse me while I go buy a bunch of Possessed Wings.

Anyway, so they're Possessed that pay 4 more points per model for Jump Infantry instead of Fleet. They're stronger against MEQs, weaker against GEQs. Fleet all but ensures random charge range doesn't bite you, so really I still have to side with that over bonus movement.

 DarkHound wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
and warp talons can take the same MoS, MoN that possessed can, so they can be T5 or have I5 just like possessed can.

Well slap me silly and call me Nancy. You're right. Excuse me while I go buy a bunch of Possessed Wings.

possessed do have grenades, and cost slightly less. They can also fit inside a rhino, if that is worth much for assault troops. I still like warp talons over possessed if you want that kind of assault troop though.

Possessed don't have grenades... do they? Please tell me I'm wrong again.

Wargear: CCW and PA, no nades

GreyChaos wrote:
Wargear: CCW and PA, no nades

wow, so they dont have more attacks.

so Str5 and fearless, while warp talons get the jump pack(DS, move, or HoW) shred AND AP3 at the same time.
I think FA was just supposed to be better than elite for chaos

there is no reason to take elite with the chaos book. The HS & FA options are fantastic as well as the core troops. If you want a cult trooper you take the relevant mark & make those fethers scoring.

FA & HS can score in missions whereas elites never can.... See? GW is telling you to leave the "elites" section empty.... they've done us a favour by making all of our fast selections great (compared to the old book....) and by making our elites either balls aweful or "slightly meh" at best....

Possessed can be taken to 20, and can take an Icon. MoS+Icon makes a pretty nasty squad.

...That's about the only way I can think of taking them where they really shine in comparison to Talons.

Another thing to remember though, they are in different slots. If you're going heavy on Dragons/Bikes/Spawn, Possessed do give you some additional psuedo-Fast Attack from the elite slot. Kind of like Triarchs in a Wraith wing.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Possessed can be taken to 20, and can take an Icon. MoS+Icon makes a pretty nasty squad.

...That's about the only way I can think of taking them where they really shine in comparison to Talons.

Another thing to remember though, they are in different slots. If you're going heavy on Dragons/Bikes/Spawn, Possessed do give you some additional psuedo-Fast Attack from the elite slot. Kind of like Triarchs in a Wraith wing.

Well, there is the whole fact that Warptalons can't get in a Rhino. Waiting in reserve is a hell of a way to spend a game, especially if you're unlucky. They don't get to contribute for another whole turn after they show up, so worst case scenario is they only get 1 round of combat in.

Walking them across the board doesn't help; if they stick to cover, they'll take a whole lot of dangerous terrain tests (correct me if I'm wrong). Target saturation is different with infantry than tanks since you can more reliably render a unit combat ineffective. If you're running them alongside a mech list (to match movement profiles), then they're sitting ducks for the unoccupied anti-infantry guns.

I was reading this thread and was thinking, "Man, there used to be a guy who ran Possessed a lot, but I haven't heard from him in awhile and while I can remember his avatar, I can't remember his name..." and then BAM DarkHound, there he is.

I like this discussion despite the fact that I don't really like the result, which seems to be that Possessed aren't worth taking except that they occupy a different slot.

They're clearly assault-based troops, so I ask the question that's been vexing me since 6th came out: Would you put them in a rhino or not?

I'm glad I've been missed. Now, if I may attack this from another angle...

I haven't played a lot of 6th edition games yet, but I've definitely noticed a trend in the few I have. Random charge range can, and will, bite you in the ass. Back in 5th (which I played to death), Ork Meganobz were completely ignored largely because they were Slow and Purposeful. A quarter of the time you'd end up with 3 or less inches for an assault move.

Due to Overwatch, changes to Fleet and disembarking, and the new importance of positioning, an increased charge range is actually a necessity rather than a convenience. This isn't bad game design, far from it, but it does mean every unit now has the same problem that Meganobz have. Except for units with Fleet.

Fleet isn't just good. Fleet actually gives you a measure of control over your assaults. Rather than an emergency in case of catastrophic failure, as are most re-rolls, Fleet allows you to keep part of the roll. If you got a 5,1 and had to re-roll both, there would only be a 58% chance of improving your roll. That's not something you want to gamble a entire game on. However, since you can keep the 5, there is a 83% chance of you improve your roll. And in the event of catastrophic failure, you can still re-roll both! With Fleet, your end results will virtually always be better than your initial roll.

I expect in this edition Fleet is going to be allocated very differently, and it will become the defining feature for assault units. I probably won't take an assault unit without it.

Posessed can be pretty sweet, it just depends who your fighting. I'd probably toss MoS and FNP on them to get a 5++ and 5+ FNP.

Like any unit, it all comes down to roll.... also the nay sayers about warp talons... Pshaw!! I toss MoS on them and i shred marines like they dont even exist, a 6 man took down 2 tactical squads, and one had an HQ (yey for rolling Bloated for a Mutation !)

Grenades a problem? just slap an HQ in there with them and buff the squad up a few more! Slaanesh Sorcerer would sound nice or even Lucius. Now they have assault grenades, and your HQ gets to have FNP for joining a squad w/ Mark of Excess.

 DarkHound wrote:
every unit now has the same problem that Meganobz have. Except for units with Fleet.

Fleet isn't just good. Fleet actually gives you a measure of control over your assaults. Rather than an emergency in case of catastrophic failure, as are most re-rolls, Fleet allows you to keep part of the roll. If you got a 5,1 and had to re-roll both, there would only be a 58% chance of improving your roll. That's not something you want to gamble a entire game on. However, since you can keep the 5, there is a 83% chance of you improve your roll. And in the event of catastrophic failure, you can still re-roll both! With Fleet, your end results will virtually always be better than your initial roll.

I expect in this edition Fleet is going to be allocated very differently, and it will become the defining feature for assault units. I probably won't take an assault unit without it.

pg 47 BRB, jump units can reroll charge distance if they don't use their jump packs in the movement phase.

I was gonna say that, but more just as a way to compare the warptalons to the possessed. I guess what it comes down to is, are the possessed, in your opinion(s), EQUAL to Warptalons or WORSE?

Knighty wrote:pg 47 BRB, jump units can reroll charge distance if they don't use their jump packs in the movement phase.

I was speaking more on general comparisons and less to Warp Talons, but thanks for pointing that out. However, there's still a huge logistical difference between jump troops and mechanized infantry. Meched troops will disembark in roughly the same spot as jump infantry while they both wait for a turn. However, the meched infantry are covered by their Rhino. Jump infantry rely on staying out of LoS, then jumping over terrain. I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where jump infantry would rather wait in LoS for a turn.

Tangent wrote:I was gonna say that, but more just as a way to compare the warptalons to the possessed. I guess what it comes down to is, are the possessed, in your opinion(s), EQUAL to Warptalons or WORSE?

I'd honestly say equal to with one caveat. Possessed are better in a more traditional mech list simply due to target saturation. With the flexibility that allies bring, a reserve heavy list would benefit immensely from Warpfire-flare-blinding-thing-strike.

So you would definitely put them in a rhino, then? The reason why I'm so interested is because I intend to take them as part of a list that someone mentioned on this board a few days ago that's centered around the theme of Fabius Bile creating all kinds of monsters. It would include Fabius, Typhus, Typhus' zombies, spawn, possessed, etc. Also, the possessed models are basically exactly what I want the entire codex to be like - mutants, more or less - and I've never really been able to use them before.

now that you cant sit in your rhino a turn and then assault out of it I think jump infantry are the way to go. obviously assault ramps are better but i just dont think the rhino works


you drive up first turn 18"
second turn you drive up 6" and then disembark into cover
third turn you hope you havent been shot to death, assualted, or had your target run out of charge range and you try to roll high on your 2d6 assault range.

Still only gets you 30+2d6" in 3 turns if you are completely exposed. Jump infantry get 36+4d6 in 3 turns(2 runs) or they could just assault turn 2 instead of 3

That's a tough call. With infantry saturation like that, Possessed won't be bad unmounted. Spawn are basically better than Warptalons in the list you're describing, since you need all your boots on the board. I'm most concerned about your ability to deal with armor, especially flyers.

 Exergy wrote:
now that you cant sit in your rhino a turn and then assault out of it I think jump infantry are the way to go. obviously assault ramps are better but i just dont think the rhino works

There's actually only a small difference between 5th edition mech assault and 6th edition mech assault. Now you have to deploy your infantry to the side of your Rhino instead of in front of it. You lose about 2" over all. You don't have to deploy the infantry in cover; you use the Rhino as cover. It worked in 5th, it works now.

Mech lists can move without consideration for cover. Jump infantry have to hug it to be safe from bigger guns.

This is the short version of the list, which I would probably change at least a little, from this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/481404.page

Fabius - as himself.
Typhus - as a sort of monster that is really powerful, but is unique. Like a henchman.

Possessed - as those experiments that haven't quite gone right or have developed random mutations.
Terminators - other henchmen.
Helbrute - an enhanced warrior back from the dead.

Enhanced Warriors.
Zombies - as failed experiments.

Warp Talons or Raptors - flying experiments.

Obliterators - clearly some form of experiment.

Are the only ways that the new codex has to deal with flyers just flak missiles on Havocs and the dragon?