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Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Some combos make sense. Some dont. But there would be more bitching if the Imperium could all ally with each other and Xenos races couldnt all with anybody. So I think they made a compromise.

Nids should be proud they have nothing to do with this nonsense.


Preeeeeeeeeeetty sure Nids are happy about neither having allies nor AA

   
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 Sigvatr wrote:
 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Some combos make sense. Some dont. But there would be more bitching if the Imperium could all ally with each other and Xenos races couldnt all with anybody. So I think they made a compromise.

Nids should be proud they have nothing to do with this nonsense.


Preeeeeeeeeeetty sure Nids are happy about neither having allies nor AA


You do realize that 'nids can take harpies and flying tyrants? Both of which can tear the wings off of flyers when swooping.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 02:53:46


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 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
There's a huge missed opportunity with 'Nids - let them be Allies with IG, even if it's only Desperate allies. This could easily represent a Genestealer cult rising up to fight alongside the invading Tyranids (shortly before the Tyranids turn and nom them).


Yes, and then you would have tyranids using mech alongside T6 MC, and it won't make sense from a fluff standpoint because the cultists are not soldiers; they are mainly civilians with some PDF thrown in (sometimes).
How about no?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/14 13:25:58


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
There's a huge missed opportunity with 'Nids - let them be Allies with IG, even if it's only Desperate allies. This could easily represent a Genestealer cult rising up to fight alongside the invading Tyranids (shortly before the Tyranids turn and nom them).


Yes, and then you would have tyranids using mech alongside T6 MC, and it won't make sense from a fluff standpoint because the cultists are not soldiers; they are mainly civilians with some PDF thrown in (sometimes).
How about no?


I know a player a my FLGS who plays Nids comuplete with Doom of Malan'tai in a pod, carnifex in a pod, Harpie, and Trygon Prime. Who are you going to play against if you put that AND imperial guard in your army?

All the other alliances could, at least, happen during certain condition such as being in a war zone. Everyone knows that Tyranids just consume everything in their path, and will probably just shoot them (barring cultists, who are enslaved by the Patriach)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 13:52:12


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TechMarine1 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Some combos make sense. Some dont. But there would be more bitching if the Imperium could all ally with each other and Xenos races couldnt all with anybody. So I think they made a compromise.

Nids should be proud they have nothing to do with this nonsense.


Preeeeeeeeeeetty sure Nids are happy about neither having allies nor AA


You do realize that 'nids can take harpies and flying tyrants? Both of which can tear the wings off of flyers when swooping.

Harpies aren't really AA - they only have Blast weapons, which can't hit Flyers. They can Vector Strike them - but with an unmodified STR of 5 that's not very likely to do anything.

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I for one am tired of people saying the allies matrix is unfluffy, simply because it *allows* you to be unfluffy.

I also think their capacity to be OP is reserved to a very few and very obvious cheese lists. In general I have never found myself thinking "damn i wish I could take so and so unit from this other codex", since 'dexes tend to be internally balanced. A guard player needs bodies, guns and tanks, not MEQs or grav-tanks (though how you can call something that's AV12 a tank, I don't know )

Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
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I mostly agree with testify. I think the fact that your allies have to stick to their own foc limits the opportunities for cheesy op lists. You may want some super fast attack units from another codex but do you really want to waste points on troops and hq that you don't?

I was talking about the 2nd ed allies system earlier on and that allowed you to spend your allied points on anything on wanted.

So Yeh, I do like most of what allies are about, but it's the unfluffiness that it allows that I don't really like. Having said that, I don't actually think really unfluffy situations will come up all that often. I think a lot of players enjoy the fluff of their armies and won't want to push it too far. And if it allows the occasional big multiplayer game, then that's cool too.

I like allies, i just hope most players will at least try to make so sort of effort at authenticity.... relatively speaking.

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I general I agree with the OP. In terms of the basic game, allies should have been left well alone. It should have been put in the province of Forgeworld, expansions and the like. Great for pure hobby/fluff games where you and your friends team up into sides along allied lines for big games. Super stuff. However for "fair" casual gaming at the local club/store and tournaments it is unsuitable, mainly because it hands Imperial players a considerable advantage (and to a certain extent the financially better off players - although that is always a problem in this hobby). Tyrannid players have my sympathy.

As many others have stated/observed, the simple truth is that GW introduced it as a way to get players to buy more codices/miniatures. This is why Daemons (other than the DP) were removed from the new Chaos Codex. Want lesser and greater daemons? Well guess what, you are going to have buy the CD codex. This immediately hands the advantage to the CSM player who already owns CD and codex specific miniatures.

My own disapproval though doesn't begrudge players with allies. It's in the basic rules now, nothing I can do about it. However, I'll still happily power-game players who try to sneak in Forgeworld stuff into a FLGC game though.......the cheek of it, honestly.....
   
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rigeld2 wrote:
TechMarine1 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Some combos make sense. Some dont. But there would be more bitching if the Imperium could all ally with each other and Xenos races couldnt all with anybody. So I think they made a compromise.

Nids should be proud they have nothing to do with this nonsense.


Preeeeeeeeeeetty sure Nids are happy about neither having allies nor AA


You do realize that 'nids can take harpies and flying tyrants? Both of which can tear the wings off of flyers when swooping.

Harpies aren't really AA - they only have Blast weapons, which can't hit Flyers. They can Vector Strike them - but with an unmodified STR of 5 that's not very likely to do anything.


+2D6 for being a monstrous creature.

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on the forum. Obviously

TechMarine1 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
TechMarine1 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Some combos make sense. Some dont. But there would be more bitching if the Imperium could all ally with each other and Xenos races couldnt all with anybody. So I think they made a compromise.

Nids should be proud they have nothing to do with this nonsense.


Preeeeeeeeeeetty sure Nids are happy about neither having allies nor AA


You do realize that 'nids can take harpies and flying tyrants? Both of which can tear the wings off of flyers when swooping.

Harpies aren't really AA - they only have Blast weapons, which can't hit Flyers. They can Vector Strike them - but with an unmodified STR of 5 that's not very likely to do anything.


+2D6 for being a monstrous creature.


That rule has been changed. MC no longer get armorbane; they now have a special rule called smash, which makes all of their attacks AP2, and they may choose to halve their attacks and double their strength...in the assault phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 16:56:18


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Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
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The Hive Mind





TechMarine1 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
TechMarine1 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Some combos make sense. Some dont. But there would be more bitching if the Imperium could all ally with each other and Xenos races couldnt all with anybody. So I think they made a compromise.

Nids should be proud they have nothing to do with this nonsense.


Preeeeeeeeeeetty sure Nids are happy about neither having allies nor AA


You do realize that 'nids can take harpies and flying tyrants? Both of which can tear the wings off of flyers when swooping.

Harpies aren't really AA - they only have Blast weapons, which can't hit Flyers. They can Vector Strike them - but with an unmodified STR of 5 that's not very likely to do anything.


+2D6 for being a monstrous creature.

MCs don't have Armorbane, Smash doesn't do that, and you can't Smash a Vector Strike.

Try again?

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I think it is a sound idea, it makes sense and it allows you to collect loads of other figures, little chunks of armies here and there, which is good for you and good for GW.

However, I do have a number of issue with the way it has been done:

1. Obviously the way codeces were constructed was a bit of a balance, each one had strengths and weaknesses to provide a balanced game experience. So the way allies now work means that judiciously selected combinations are absolutely vicious. This is also a direct upshot of the combinations allowed. So Imperial players now have access to tonnes of new codeces and these used sensibly will be devastating. For example, IG with GK if done right should be virtually invincible. It gives the GK the long range and anti tank weaponry they lack and numbers, while the IG get the really tough grunts they don't have. Win-win. As a consequence it is not so positive for the other factions.

2. I just don't get many of the combinations, they are bizarre. With my nid hat on I can see why nids get none, but why then do nids not get some compensation (e.g. access to a double FOC from 1pt up)? They have got a kick in the nasties there and no payback. Some of the combinations allowed are just weird. Imperials are stated everywhere to hate xenos, the Inquisition will ruthlessly hunt down any Imperial citizens who traffick with aliens, yet the allies suggest the exact opposite. I can't see why they allow the Imperials any xenos allies, certainly not any at anything less than come the appocalypse. Necrons likewise. If nids get no allies why do necrons who profess to hate everything and want to kill it? Eldar and Dark Eldar. I know they have the explanation in the WD a while back but it just makes zero sense to me. Surely they are literally polar opposites, living completely antithetical lifestyles with practices that are utterly abhorrent to one another? You can imagine the Dark Eldar being fairly relaxed about Eldar but surely not the Eldar the other way round. In fact I would imagine they would regard them as their fiercest and worse enemy short of chaos, it was the Dark Eldar who destroyed their race and their future.

3. I don't see why you get such a generous choice of allies, so many of the special slots. It seems that they are privileged and you get better options with allies than your main detachment.

The final point of course is that it adds variety. There's no need to get annoyed about it, just ask anyone playing you not to use them if you are bothered. Your mates will surely indulge you!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 17:26:13


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One that most confuses me is Space Marines BATTLE BROTHER with Tau.

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Isengard wrote:
I think it is a sound idea, it makes sense and it allows you to collect loads of other figures, little chunks of armies here and there, which is good for you and good for GW.

However, I do have a number of issue with the way it has been done:

1. Obviously the way codeces were constructed was a bit of a balance, each one had strengths and weaknesses to provide a balanced game experience. So the way allies now work means that judiciously selected combinations are absolutely vicious. This is also a direct upshot of the combinations allowed. So Imperial players now have access to tonnes of new codeces and these used sensibly will be devastating. For example, IG with GK if done right should be virtually invincible. It gives the GK the long range and anti tank weaponry they lack and numbers, while the IG get the really tough grunts they don't have. Win-win. As a consequence it is not so positive for the other factions.

2. I just don't get many of the combinations, they are bizarre. With my nid hat on I can see why nids get none, but why then do nids not get some compensation (e.g. access to a double FOC from 1pt up)? They have got a kick in the nasties there and no payback. Some of the combinations allowed are just weird. Imperials are stated everywhere to hate xenos, the Inquisition will ruthlessly hunt down any Imperial citizens who traffick with aliens, yet the allies suggest the exact opposite. I can't see why they allow the Imperials any xenos allies, certainly not any at anything less than come the appocalypse. Necrons likewise. If nids get no allies why do necrons who profess to hate everything and want to kill it? Eldar and Dark Eldar. I know they have the explanation in the WD a while back but it just makes zero sense to me. Surely they are literally polar opposites, living completely antithetical lifestyles with practices that are utterly abhorrent to one another? You can imagine the Dark Eldar being fairly relaxed about Eldar but surely not the Eldar the other way round. In fact I would imagine they would regard them as their fiercest and worse enemy short of chaos, it was the Dark Eldar who destroyed their race and their future.

3. I don't see why you get such a generous choice of allies, so many of the special slots. It seems that they are privileged and you get better options with allies than your main detachment.

The final point of course is that it adds variety. There's no need to get annoyed about it, just ask anyone playing you not to use them if you are bothered. Your mates will surely indulge you!


Imagine your worst enemy. Now imagine that he's the only other person on Earth, and there's a whole bunch of monkeys trying to kill both of you. The Eldar and Dark Eldar may hate each other, but they still like each other a heck of a lot more than they like anyone else.

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I like the allies rules. TFGs could already abuse the army list creation system before, the ability to abuse rules for WAAC purposes is nothing new. I find that allies bring more variety to the game, and let me face off against a greater cross-section of units than I did before. They have also allowed me to justify a Sisters of Battle counts-as pet project, so that certainly doesn't hurt my opinion of them either.

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I like it, it let me add a Harliestar into my Paladin army.

 
   
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 phantommaster wrote:
I like it, it let me add a Harliestar into my Paladin army.
OH FUUUUUUUU-

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 phantommaster wrote:
I like it, it let me add a Harliestar into my Paladin army.


Other then the Clown factor, why?

This doesn't strike me as competitive in any way.

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Who says it has to be?

One of the benefits of the allies matrix is that you can put together stuff you like, even if it isn't very good.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
 phantommaster wrote:
I like it, it let me add a Harliestar into my Paladin army.


Other then the Clown factor, why?

This doesn't strike me as competitive in any way.


It works to an extent, I struggle against vehicle heavy armies and a low model count but besides that it does very well.

 
   
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 TheCaptain wrote:
Purists don't like it, army collectors like it

Fluff-bunnies don't like it unless it has got supporting fluff, Powergamers like it if it makes their army more effective.

Everyone has their reasons for liking/disliking it.

It's hardly a cheap/easy way out, it's a way to add variation to your codex. For instance: Guard has one guy with a PA save. No good psykers. Add in Space Wolves; whole different story. Is it cheesier than pure guard? Not always; plenty of cheap tricks to be pulled from both choices. It's just more variation to the game.


This is exactly how I see it and have experienced it with people at my LFGS.

I'm in the powergamer side of it because it makes my army more effective at what it does. But I also really like how much color schemes for my IG and GK work together. Looks real sick.

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TechMarine1 wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Some combos make sense. Some dont. But there would be more bitching if the Imperium could all ally with each other and Xenos races couldnt all with anybody. So I think they made a compromise.

Nids should be proud they have nothing to do with this nonsense.


Preeeeeeeeeeetty sure Nids are happy about neither having allies nor AA


You do realize that 'nids can take harpies and flying tyrants? Both of which can tear the wings off of flyers when swooping.


Harpies are completely useless against flyers and even Tyrants need 6s just to glance av12 with Vector. Tyranids definitely have no AA, and quad guns got FAQd away from us as well.

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TechMarine1 wrote:
One that most confuses me is Space Marines BATTLE BROTHER with Tau.


Yeah how do aliens have a better relationship with space marines than some chapters have with each other? Yeah Space Wolves and Dark Angels have a rivalry due to the the fight between Guilliman and Russ, but that should still allow for a much closer relationship than with an alien menace outside of Imperial space that is encroaching on Imperial space.

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I think it represents the naivity of the Tau and willingness to trust others. They'll get buddy buddy with ANYONE, little whores...

The Space Marines don't like the Tau or anything, but they are simply using the Tau because its convienient.

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reaper with no name wrote:
Isengard wrote:
I think it is a sound idea, it makes sense and it allows you to collect loads of other figures, little chunks of armies here and there, which is good for you and good for GW.

However, I do have a number of issue with the way it has been done:

1. Obviously the way codeces were constructed was a bit of a balance, each one had strengths and weaknesses to provide a balanced game experience. So the way allies now work means that judiciously selected combinations are absolutely vicious. This is also a direct upshot of the combinations allowed. So Imperial players now have access to tonnes of new codeces and these used sensibly will be devastating. For example, IG with GK if done right should be virtually invincible. It gives the GK the long range and anti tank weaponry they lack and numbers, while the IG get the really tough grunts they don't have. Win-win. As a consequence it is not so positive for the other factions.

2. I just don't get many of the combinations, they are bizarre. With my nid hat on I can see why nids get none, but why then do nids not get some compensation (e.g. access to a double FOC from 1pt up)? They have got a kick in the nasties there and no payback. Some of the combinations allowed are just weird. Imperials are stated everywhere to hate xenos, the Inquisition will ruthlessly hunt down any Imperial citizens who traffick with aliens, yet the allies suggest the exact opposite. I can't see why they allow the Imperials any xenos allies, certainly not any at anything less than come the appocalypse. Necrons likewise. If nids get no allies why do necrons who profess to hate everything and want to kill it? Eldar and Dark Eldar. I know they have the explanation in the WD a while back but it just makes zero sense to me. Surely they are literally polar opposites, living completely antithetical lifestyles with practices that are utterly abhorrent to one another? You can imagine the Dark Eldar being fairly relaxed about Eldar but surely not the Eldar the other way round. In fact I would imagine they would regard them as their fiercest and worse enemy short of chaos, it was the Dark Eldar who destroyed their race and their future.

3. I don't see why you get such a generous choice of allies, so many of the special slots. It seems that they are privileged and you get better options with allies than your main detachment.

The final point of course is that it adds variety. There's no need to get annoyed about it, just ask anyone playing you not to use them if you are bothered. Your mates will surely indulge you!


Imagine your worst enemy. Now imagine that he's the only other person on Earth, and there's a whole bunch of monkeys trying to kill both of you. The Eldar and Dark Eldar may hate each other, but they still like each other a heck of a lot more than they like anyone else.


I still don't buy it, the Dark Eldar literally damned the whole race, they destroyed the vast majority, wiped out their worlds, damned billions upon billions of Eldar to hell and meant that no Eldar can die ever again without damnation. There is literally nothing worse. The Eldar were the ones who fled this and set their face against it. Their entire society and their ancestors were wiped out and they have no future. I think if I was them I'd rather die than fight with the Dark Eldar. I'd think they would be far happier siding with Tau or even Orks, all of the Imperial factions, etc.

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 Ailaros wrote:


I've yet to see anybody say that their primary army is a "X and Y" army, though.



i have seen some play eldar and marines as there primary army and it sucked play 3 wraith lords farseer 20 warriors eldar snipers with space marine snipers and vindacater and a bike squad with a librarian on a bike it really sucked to play against.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So does any one disagree with the fact that space wolves and ark angels can be allies of convince. i think they should be desperate allies. those two chapters hate each other. they will hardly ever fight together.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/19 17:55:15


For the Loin.

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It's not my primary army by any definition, but one of my armies definitely is best described as Grey Knights and airborne Guard, since I was trying to bring back something that resembled the old Inquisition lists from 3e...

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Isengard wrote:
reaper with no name wrote:
Isengard wrote:
I think it is a sound idea, it makes sense and it allows you to collect loads of other figures, little chunks of armies here and there, which is good for you and good for GW.

However, I do have a number of issue with the way it has been done:

1. Obviously the way codeces were constructed was a bit of a balance, each one had strengths and weaknesses to provide a balanced game experience. So the way allies now work means that judiciously selected combinations are absolutely vicious. This is also a direct upshot of the combinations allowed. So Imperial players now have access to tonnes of new codeces and these used sensibly will be devastating. For example, IG with GK if done right should be virtually invincible. It gives the GK the long range and anti tank weaponry they lack and numbers, while the IG get the really tough grunts they don't have. Win-win. As a consequence it is not so positive for the other factions.

2. I just don't get many of the combinations, they are bizarre. With my nid hat on I can see why nids get none, but why then do nids not get some compensation (e.g. access to a double FOC from 1pt up)? They have got a kick in the nasties there and no payback. Some of the combinations allowed are just weird. Imperials are stated everywhere to hate xenos, the Inquisition will ruthlessly hunt down any Imperial citizens who traffick with aliens, yet the allies suggest the exact opposite. I can't see why they allow the Imperials any xenos allies, certainly not any at anything less than come the appocalypse. Necrons likewise. If nids get no allies why do necrons who profess to hate everything and want to kill it? Eldar and Dark Eldar. I know they have the explanation in the WD a while back but it just makes zero sense to me. Surely they are literally polar opposites, living completely antithetical lifestyles with practices that are utterly abhorrent to one another? You can imagine the Dark Eldar being fairly relaxed about Eldar but surely not the Eldar the other way round. In fact I would imagine they would regard them as their fiercest and worse enemy short of chaos, it was the Dark Eldar who destroyed their race and their future.

3. I don't see why you get such a generous choice of allies, so many of the special slots. It seems that they are privileged and you get better options with allies than your main detachment.

The final point of course is that it adds variety. There's no need to get annoyed about it, just ask anyone playing you not to use them if you are bothered. Your mates will surely indulge you!


Imagine your worst enemy. Now imagine that he's the only other person on Earth, and there's a whole bunch of monkeys trying to kill both of you. The Eldar and Dark Eldar may hate each other, but they still like each other a heck of a lot more than they like anyone else.


I still don't buy it, the Dark Eldar literally damned the whole race, they destroyed the vast majority, wiped out their worlds, damned billions upon billions of Eldar to hell and meant that no Eldar can die ever again without damnation. There is literally nothing worse. The Eldar were the ones who fled this and set their face against it. Their entire society and their ancestors were wiped out and they have no future. I think if I was them I'd rather die than fight with the Dark Eldar. I'd think they would be far happier siding with Tau or even Orks, all of the Imperial factions, etc.


I think you're underestimating how much the Eldar consider themselves superior to all other races.

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