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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Dravenguild wrote:
Looking through this codex leaves a bad taste with me, where did all the creativity and points go wrong for C:CSM?

14 points for a basic marine that can tote a heavy at 5 members while having ATSKNF and stubborn.

And why am I paying 25 points for a reaper autocannon when these deathwing members pay 15 for a plasma cannon?

Among other things, I don't want to derail the thread, I'm happy for dark angels but why is chaos the way it is?

Time will tell I hope.

Unbelievable. 14 points and they get Stubborn and ATSKNF. That's just....

I bet you they have a Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW weapon for that cost, unlike CSM.

Sweet! I'm using the DA Codex for my Chaos Space Marines that are heritage Sons of Horus Legionnaires!

 Maalis wrote:
On a side note, am I the only one who thinks those DW Knights look more like something from Scibor than GW? Not to say I dont like them, but they might be a bit too "heroic" for my tastes..

You're not the only one. The robe on a terminator looks just weird and for some reason their arms look huge. I greatly prefer the normal Deathwing look over these knights.

Crimedy why is the "limited edition" codex twice the price of the standard? It barely has anything exclusive to it.

Davor wrote:


Why am I worried about this statement? First it was DA that was suppose to be the norm for 5th, CSM followed suit and the SM players cried and complained, GW changed direction and got overpowered codex compared to 4th DA and CSM codex. Now CSM and it seems DA seem "balanced" for 6th. Will the SM players complain and cry again and GW change direction again for the SM codex?

Has been at the back of my mind the entire time. This looks like a decent upgrade from the last book and while I could beat C:SM players before, this seems like it will remove the handicap for the most part without being entirely ridiculous.

...and then nothing stops them from making C:SM Tactical marines 10 points a piece, or some such insanity. Though I am hopeful that stupidity of that magnitude doesn't suddenly happen again because this otherwise sounds like a good book.

Davor wrote:

I just wonder where the hell does GW get it's point costs from? Do they really just grab point costs out of thin air?

Sure seems that way. Naturally big edition changes would have an effect but they do seem that for as long as the games been around they still just put in "what feels right" and tweak it. Of course the tweaking taking years between books. I think Cruddence overpriced things intentionally, worried they would be to powerful. Really seems like something play testing should pick up on but maybe it's hard to check all the armies against each other like that...specially if you know some of them are sort of handicapped.

Just got my copy of the DA Codex, can confirm much of the previously given information. Anyone have other questions about the codex content?

One of my favorite things is Deathwing Terms have Split fire as standard, also on the turn they deep strike all their weapons count as Twin-Linked.

Overall looks like a lot of cool unique rules that should be fun to play.

If you have to take Sammael to play Ravenwing, details of the dude I'll have to run every game would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

As far as I have read, this offers little for anyone not collecting/playing 1st or 2nd companies.

Also does GW care so much about RSI that it has started doing bundles which offer zero financial saving, only maybe five clicks of a mouse?

Tidalwake is there any sign of Sgt Namaan as an upgrade for scout sgt like telion in SM dex. Or did the rumours he me excited for nothing!

Really? From what I have heard, the green wing actually got a huge boost. Most things got MUCH cheaper, devastators and tactical marines mainly. They have access to scouts in troops now. one weapon per 5 instead of needing 10. plenty of synergies.

Not sure where these green is hurt perception is coming from.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Tuagh wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Tuagh wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Any special rules for plasma?

Tacticals, what are their points costs now? Any new weapons/options?

Nothing special for plasma in general, but access to lots of different varieties.

Cheap. 70 points base. 5-man gets special or heavy weapon, 10 man gets special and heavy weapon. Access to Flakk.

So Dark Angels get cheaper marines than Chaos and they also get Stubborn? Seems legit (and by seems legit I mean I couldn't be less surprised).

They also don't get anything in the air that can compete with a heldrake, or anything remotely equivalent to a Daemon Prince. Power level between the two seems fairly consistent, although DA wins out in a head to head comparison due to a rather hefty rock-paper-scissors effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Do Tacticals get a sergeant standard or do they have to pay to upgrade for one?

Free, but has LD 8 unless you pay for a Veteran upgrade for him.

Hm that kinda sorta balances it out I guess...

Oh yeah, I agree. It's totally balanced that Dark Angels can get Tac Marines for 1 point more than a Chaos Space Marine but get ATSKNF -and- Stubborn.

And gasp, you don't get a crappy overpriced monstrous creature that can be instantly killed or a helturkey. Sorry you guys have to suffer, can we switch codices? Against CSM, DA are going in dry. Makes sense according to the background but in terms of gameplay it's not very enjoyable. Even more glad that I didn't waste $50 on the crappy new codex.

Greenwing got a large boost simply by things being cheaper. Tac sqauds with the banner of devastation nearby will have salvo 2/4 on their bolters, and are 70 points for 5 models which can choose either a special or heavy weapon. Additional troops are 14pts/model. At 10 you can have one special and one heavy weapon. Devastator marines are also much cheaper and scouts are back as troops, albeit with vanilla marine stat line.

There is no special scout sergeant. The standard sergeant is the same stat line as scouts except WS/BS 4, pay 10 pts to make him a vet sergeant for 2 attacks and 9 leadership. 60 pts per squard, 12pts/model up to 10 models. Can buy camo cloaks, sniper rifles are free.

Sammael is much the same on the jetbike as before but has hit and run, scouts, and skilled rider, landspeeder is down to 2HP rather than 3 as in the old codex. He is 5 pts cheaper and can deep strike. Keeps his 4" invulnerable save in the landspeeder.

You don't have to take Sammael to unlock Ravenwing as troops, Azrael (215 pts) unlocks both Deathwing AND Ravenwing as troops choices.

There is a separate warlord trait table in the book. No new psychic powers in the book.

Chaos Marines still aren't seeming an unfair comparison to me, compared with DA tacticals. It looks planned that way, lets hope it continues!

The customizability of Chaos Space Marines is where the difference lies. I think the CSM marines are still priced correctly. Overall I think this is right. New space marines will likely be 15pts or maybe stay 16 since their special rule is ace. And then Grey Hunters will all their special rules stay 15. Makes sense to me.

And bear in mind the DA stubborn rule means you can get locked in combat with things you can't hurt because you can't choose to fail a leadership test.

Davor wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Looks like DA are another Codex in the mold on 6th edition Chaos Space Marines-- powerful but not crazy and with a lot of cool, unique options. I for one welcome this approach to Codex design and can't wait until every army has an update in this style.

Why am I worried about this statement? First it was DA that was suppose to be the norm for 5th, CSM followed suit and the SM players cried and complained, GW changed direction and got overpowered codex compared to 4th DA and CSM codex. Now CSM and it seems DA seem "balanced" for 6th. Will the SM players complain and cry again and GW change direction again for the SM codex?

I hope when the SM codex comes out it will be like the CSM and DA codex and not over powered or better and stick to the formula now.

I like what I am seeing. Just hope the rest of the codicies stick to the forumula now.

I wouldn't worry about this too much!

When has a Vanilla Space Marine Codex EVER been the most powerful codex of an entire edition of 40K?

What edition had 6 man Las-plas squads. That edition the SM codex was pretty much the most powerful (or one of the most powerful).

 kronk wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Dravenguild wrote:
Looking through this codex leaves a bad taste with me, where did all the creativity and points go wrong for C:CSM?

14 points for a basic marine that can tote a heavy at 5 members while having ATSKNF and stubborn.

And why am I paying 25 points for a reaper autocannon when these deathwing members pay 15 for a plasma cannon?

Among other things, I don't want to derail the thread, I'm happy for dark angels but why is chaos the way it is?

Time will tell I hope.

Unbelievable. 14 points and they get Stubborn and ATSKNF. That's just....

I bet you they have a Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW weapon for that cost, unlike CSM.

Sweet! I'm using the DA Codex for my Chaos Space Marines that are heritage Sons of Horus Legionnaires!

I'm starting to head into regret land, with my Chaos.... I'll just have to take some deep breaths, and evaluate the codex when I get it. I'm not in a stable state of mind right now. The 14 point marines with ATSKNF and stubborn makes me want to hit something.

 Ozymandias wrote:
What edition had 6 man Las-plas squads. That edition the SM codex was pretty much the most powerful (or one of the most powerful).

Black Templars still do.

 Sasori wrote:

I'm starting to head into regret land, with my Chaos.... I'll just have to take some deep breaths, and evaluate the codex when I get it. I'm not in a stable state of mind right now. The 14 point marines with ATSKNF and stubborn makes me want to hit something.

As opposed to, for exactly the same points cost with an upgrade, Chaos get LD9 for the whole squad and Hatred against marines... Plus the option to arm some guys with close combat weapons. And the option to have double special weapons at 10 strong.

Anpu42 wrote:Are Combi-Bolters available to any Deathwing or Ravenwing?

Are “Mortis” options available for Dreads or just the Twin-Link Auto Cannon and Missile Launcher Only?

Assault Quads, what are they like?

Combi weapons are in the "Terminator weapons" catagory in the armory section.

Dreads can have standard weapon loadouts, including rifleman, but no specific "Mortis" capabilities.

What on earth is an Assault Quad? Assault Squads are fairly cheap and get 2-per-unit special weapons, but can't take melta. Pretty much 5 man packless in a free drop pod with dual flamers for around 95 pts seems like the best use for them.

Crimson wrote:What weapon options does Belial have?

Can Sammael ride a regular bike?

Does Azrael have an artificer armour?

Belial has a fancy relic power weapon and a stormbolter that gets precision shots on a 5+ to hit.

Sammael gets fancy jetbike or fancy (still AV 14!) Land speeder.

Azrael has an heirloom suit of power armor with fancy rules. A 2+ save is part of those fancy rules, so effectively yes. Note that this means that, although he unlocks DW/RW troops, his command squad is green. Seems a little weird to me, but I like the green squad anyhow.

Hulksmash wrote:I see what you did there HBMC

As for the twinlinked weapons on arrival for deathwing I haven't seen that confirmed and it isn't in the DWA rule.

Confirmed. Seperate rule with a name like No Escape or somesuch. A good nights sleep knocked the name out of my head, but it functions as described, namely TL for one turn on arrival from deepstrike.

GrimTeef wrote:There's no Storm Shield option for Terminator Librarians? That so? That's kinda lame, even old standard C:SM get that.

Overall I'm liking the sound of this book. I am still confused on the chaplains/Interrogators thing, not sure if both can get TDA, if both count as HQ or one counts as Elites...

Chappies and Interrogator Chappies are both HQ. Don't recall access to TDA for the regular chappy, but not 100% on that. Major difference is increased beatsticking capability and access to "inner circle" special rule for interrogators.

Ian Sturrock wrote:I notice that Apothecaries are on the GW site as DW choices -- does that mean we can still have greenwing Command Squads as well as the DW and RW equivalents?

Greenwing command squads do exist, if that's what you are asking.

davethepak wrote:I may have missed it, but what are the weapon options on the flyers? Specifically, their anti-flyer options (las cannons and auto cannons).

thank you.

Talon getsnothing useful against other flyers. Nephilim gets your choice of a 5 shot Str 6 cannon or a TL Las. Either way, you also have 6 str 6 direct fire (non blast) missiles. Not very good against other imperial flyers, but should prove adequate against most Xenos planes or FMC.

tidalwake wrote:
The standard sergeant is the same stat line as scouts except WS/BS 4, pay 10 pts to make him a vet sergeant for 2 attacks and 9 leadership. 60 pts per squard, 12pts/model up to 10 models. Can buy camo cloaks, sniper rifles are free.

Did they get nerfed down to the base SM WS/BS3 on the non-sergeant Scouts? I guess the WS/BS4 on all of them was nice...not really sure because I was always using the elite slot for everything else. They don't get homers though do they? Wouldn't think they really needed them with Ravenwing Bikers around.

KaryudoDS wrote:

Did they get nerfed down to the base SM WS/BS3 on the non-sergeant Scouts? I guess the WS/BS4 on all of them was nice...not really sure because I was always using the elite slot for everything else. They don't get homers though do they? Wouldn't think they really needed them with Ravenwing Bikers around.

This is correct, WS/BS 3, and cheaper. No teleport homers, but most of your bikes have them, in addition to drop pods can buy homers now as well.

 Tuagh wrote:


Talon getsnothing useful against other flyers. Nephilim gets your choice of a 5 shot Str 6 cannon or a TL Las. Either way, you also have 6 str 6 direct fire (non blast) missiles. Not very good against other imperial flyers, but should prove adequate against most Xenos planes or FMC.

Well 7 str 6 shots even against AV12 should be able to ping it to death, or plausibly one shot it with the TL Las. I think people were confused that the Nephilim with an interceptor though because slap the cannon in there and the thing seems like it could go to town on ground units like an A-10, while sort of looking like one!

Also, Taugh, the Deathwing rule for TL on deep strike turn is called Vengeful Strike, regular DW and command squad have it. DW Knights also have the "You Cannot Hide" rule making every model in the unit do a precision hit on a 6, instead of just the character.

Interrogator Chaplains can take Terminator Armor, regular Chaplains cannot.

Just to confirm and clarify a couple of the things you are remembering

 Compel wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

I'm starting to head into regret land, with my Chaos.... I'll just have to take some deep breaths, and evaluate the codex when I get it. I'm not in a stable state of mind right now. The 14 point marines with ATSKNF and stubborn makes me want to hit something.

As opposed to, for exactly the same points cost with an upgrade, Chaos get LD9 for the whole squad and Hatred against marines... Plus the option to arm some guys with close combat weapons. And the option to have double special weapons at 10 strong.

ATSKNF and Stubborn trump 1 more LD value by a long shot, and DA's get weapons with increased AP value against CSM for 0 points extra
seems good.

KaryudoDS wrote:


Well 7 str 6 shots even against AV12 should be able to ping it to death, or plausibly one shot it with the TL Las. I think people were confused that the Nephilim with an interceptor though because slap the cannon in there and the thing seems like it could go to town on ground units like an A-10, while sort of looking like one!

Very capable of playing Warthog, especially since it has Strafing Run. 10 shots of bs5 Str5-6 is nothing to sneeze at.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Compel wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

I'm starting to head into regret land, with my Chaos.... I'll just have to take some deep breaths, and evaluate the codex when I get it. I'm not in a stable state of mind right now. The 14 point marines with ATSKNF and stubborn makes me want to hit something.

As opposed to, for exactly the same points cost with an upgrade, Chaos get LD9 for the whole squad and Hatred against marines... Plus the option to arm some guys with close combat weapons. And the option to have double special weapons at 10 strong.

ATSKNF and Stubborn trump 1 more LD value by a long shot, and DA's get weapons with increased AP value against CSM for 0 points extra
seems good.

Not all DA get the increase AP value on CSM, that is only on some Deathwing weapons, namely the Knights. The rule is called Bane of the Traitor.

Only models with the Inner Circle rule (HQ choices, command squads, most DW) get Preferred Enemy: CSM

tidalwake wrote:
Also, Taugh, the Deathwing rule for TL on deep strike turn is called Vengeful Strike, regular DW and command squad have it. DW Knights also have the "You Cannot Hide" rule making every model in the unit do a precision hit on a 6, instead of just the character.

Interrogator Chaplains can take Terminator Armor, regular Chaplains cannot.

Just to confirm and clarify a couple of the things you are remembering

Much appreciated.

I can remember things with almost perfect clarity until I go to sleep; then they get kinda fuzzy. Yesterday I could quote pts values, today I can't quite remember names.

 Tuagh wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:@Tuagh
Are there an restrictions in the DA for being taken as allies? Like, can I take Deathwing allies?

H.B.M.C. wrote:There are non-Interrogator Chaplains in the list? How do they differ to Interrogator Chaplains?

And is Belial required for Deathwing as Troops, or can it be done without him?

Don't recall any restrictions on allies. Can do deathwing allies as long as you take the appropriate character or take them as elites.

Speaking of which, Belial opens DW troops, Sammael opens RW troops, and Azrael opens both! Dual Wing is in.

Just a clarification on this: like the Chaos Codex, they all say "in a primary detachment containing X".

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Compel wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

I'm starting to head into regret land, with my Chaos.... I'll just have to take some deep breaths, and evaluate the codex when I get it. I'm not in a stable state of mind right now. The 14 point marines with ATSKNF and stubborn makes me want to hit something.

As opposed to, for exactly the same points cost with an upgrade, Chaos get LD9 for the whole squad and Hatred against marines... Plus the option to arm some guys with close combat weapons. And the option to have double special weapons at 10 strong.

ATSKNF and Stubborn trump 1 more LD value by a long shot, and DA's get weapons with increased AP value against CSM for 0 points extra
seems good.

Yes, I would much rather pay one more point for Stubborn and ATSKNF, than VOTLW.

Any chance we can take the "my army sucks more than your army" to another thread, and leave this one to "hey, here is more info on the new DA!".

Please?

On that note, can anyone confirm the weapon choices for the fliers?
(can they get las cannons?).

Oh, and if not, please send the complaints to the tau empire...