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andrewm9 wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Another reason is that the SoB rely on Imperial Navy for air support, they don't have their own airforce.

So does the Imperial Guard, but they have two flyers in their codex.

I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.

GW doesn't stick to fluff, they could have literally pulled something out of their asses for Sisters if they really had to, because they do it for Marines all the god damn time, and just chose not to.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.

Though, to be fair, variant Land Raiders make more sense than SM UFOs...

Agreed

Technically the Imperial Guard should have none and "imperial" air cover is that requested and provided by the Navy and hence is normally only avaialble as "allies" for all Imperial forces - Astartes, Sororitas, Guard, Mechanicum, etc.

The Eldar and Tau have intergrated aerial elements to the military machine and which two armies have no flyers?

Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense

But as said - Marines have to be keep being given new toys, even if it rewrites the fluff to suit, at the expense of others.............- (disclaimer I also play marines)

 Mr Morden wrote:
Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense

Flyrants and Harpies?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense

Flyrants and Harpies?

Wouldn'tt enven need that just let the gargoyal swarm be a flyer then it would be interesting. That is how I always inveisioned it the Gargoyals swarming the air and just swarming all over the enemy aircraft like flies on poo.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.

You could say that about anything and everything introduced after 2nd Edition. For every army.

 BlackRaven1987!! wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense

Flyrants and Harpies?

Wouldn'tt enven need that just let the gargoyal swarm be a flyer then it would be interesting. That is how I always inveisioned it the Gargoyals swarming the air and just swarming all over the enemy aircraft like flies on poo.

Reading some of the "fluff" for the SM Stormtalon, they were used to "hold great swarming broods of Gargoyles and Harpies at bay".... Should only make sense that swarming broods of gargoyles and harpies could be used to keep swarming squadrons of Stormtalons and Stormravens at bay.... lol

 Breotan wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.

You could say that about anything and everything introduced after 2nd Edition. For every army.

No not at all.

Space Marines and Flyers is a special Case. In the past the role of their sole gunship had been clearly defined - suddenly new rules start being worked on and from nothing a whole load of flyers appear - for the Marines. I understand the need to keep all the marine players happy and I am one of them, however its still resulted in crap (IMO) models and massive retcon to the fluff, so I am not happy............

Portable air defences make sense for the Astartes (*) but they have always relied on either Navy air cover or simply punching through via drop pod/Thunderhawk/ arriving swiftly / secretely to achieve their mission.

(*) Yes, all this stuff is in Imperial Aeronautica - but sadly because some people "whine" about Forgeworld - many people are unable to use it. However if all the Marine stuff was just in that book and the other armies had got stuff I am sure the complaints would have been more vocal.................

I guess the people who complained that Crusade of Fire had no content need to re-evaluate what constitutes as 'content'.

 Mr Morden wrote:
...however its still resulted in crap (IMO) models and massive retcon to the fluff, so I am not happy............

Wow. You must be livid with Forge World then.

 Mr Morden wrote:
(*) Yes, all this stuff is in Imperial Aeronautica - but sadly because some people "whine" about Forgeworld - many people are unable to use it.

Or... not?

Let me see if I get this straight. You're complaining that GW dared include fliers for SM but you're also complaining that "whiners" are preventing FW (non-canon) kits and rules from being used?

No I am in general happy with Forge World - can you specify where you have a problem with their fluff as opposed to the massive rewrites to include new Marine flyers.

I am saying that the opportunity was there for ALL armies to be updated via either the FW book or the new "death from Above book".

However neither has been achieved:

Imperial Aeronautica is often not usable as many people whine its FW and so won't allow it be that casual play or tournaments. It should have been a straight rules addiiton akin to a Codex. Its not so FAIL

Death from the Skies only reposts previous rules and so only really covers Marines and Orks. The opportunity was there to have a flyer/AA platform from all armies - TAKEN DIRECTLY from Imperial Aeronautica, but instead they decided not to. So FAIL.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I guess the people who complained that Crusade of Fire had no content need to re-evaluate what constitutes as 'content'.

No, they just need to be more explicit in stating: no content for me or any of the armies that I collect.

Someonee told me a Tau flyer was in there along with tau AA.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Someonee told me a Tau flyer was in there along with tau AA.

They lied to you.

Ahh, I suspect they where thinking of "Aeronautica"

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ahh, I suspect they where thinking of "Aeronautica"

Aeronautica did update some of the Tau fliers. Link to table of contents.

I'm hating this book. Space Wolves primary, no damn flyer at the codex level. Screw FW, I don't want to pay to ship over resin models with dodgy rules and the general trend of people saying no against them.

I'm also starting a SoB army (yea, I'm nuts) and having zero flyer defense, again, sucks.

I'd trade the Doomscythes from Necrons army to gladly take something the other two.

Hrmph.

(Plus, I was hoping for at least the Stormtalon to make a plasticard ARWING for my Star Wo... Space Wolves)

 Breotan wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.

You could say that about anything and everything introduced after 2nd Edition. For every army.

I don't like the fact they made the space marines warrior monks they should have stayed criminals forced into service like they were originally designed back in the late 80's!

Things change over time - we get new kits, new vehicles, new characters, etc. now that GW is going to release a model for everything in their codex/army book and add on to their existing lines. I'm sure the flyer will be in the space marine codex due out later this year.

 Breotan wrote:
FW (non-canon)

Say again?

 TheKbob wrote:
I'm hating this book.

Well at least you're one of the lucky few that HAS the book then! Most of us are only allowed to hate it in absentio.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
FW (non-canon)

Say again?

To be fair a lot of FW fluff is too dumb to function. Their technical specifications for vehicles are laughably wrong and a lot of other stuff just plain doesn't make sense.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Agreed

Technically the Imperial Guard should have none and "imperial" air cover is that requested and provided by the Navy and hence is normally only avaialble as "allies" for all Imperial forces - Astartes, Sororitas, Guard, Mechanicum, etc.

The Eldar and Tau have intergrated aerial elements to the military machine and which two armies have no flyers?

Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense

But as said - Marines have to be keep being given new toys, even if it rewrites the fluff to suit, at the expense of others.............- (disclaimer I also play marines)

The IG should have none? Sorry but even our armies today have air cover provided by Apaches/Black Hawks etc etc. and they're not piloted by Navy or Air Force. What's wrong with the IG having flyers?

Space Marines are supposed to be the Emperor's Finest. Why wouldn't they have lots of cool toys? Admittedly I'd have gone a different way with the Storm Talon design. That said, GW has come a long way from what they were so why shouldn't they make more miniatures to fill in the gaps so to speak.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Agreed

Technically the Imperial Guard should have none and "imperial" air cover is that requested and provided by the Navy and hence is normally only avaialble as "allies" for all Imperial forces - Astartes, Sororitas, Guard, Mechanicum, etc.

The Eldar and Tau have intergrated aerial elements to the military machine and which two armies have no flyers?

Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense

But as said - Marines have to be keep being given new toys, even if it rewrites the fluff to suit, at the expense of others.............- (disclaimer I also play marines)

The IG should have none? Sorry but even our armies today have air cover provided by Apaches/Black Hawks etc etc. and they're not piloted by Navy or Air Force. What's wrong with the IG having flyers?

Space Marines are supposed to be the Emperor's Finest. Why wouldn't they have lots of cool toys? Admittedly I'd have gone a different way with the Storm Talon design. That said, GW has come a long way from what they were so why shouldn't they make more miniatures to fill in the gaps so to speak.

There's supposed to be a real divide between the Guard, Navy and Space Marines etc.. so that no one party has a full force capable of everything. Because of the Horus Heresy and so on.

boyd wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I also don't recall Space Marines having much in the way of air support besides the thunderhawk, either...until GW got dollar signs in their eyes and then POOF!, they had them all along. And a half dozen land raider variants.

You could say that about anything and everything introduced after 2nd Edition. For every army.

I don't like the fact they made the space marines warrior monks they should have stayed criminals forced into service like they were originally designed back in the late 80's!

Things change over time - we get new kits, new vehicles, new characters, etc. now that GW is going to release a model for everything in their codex/army book and add on to their existing lines. I'm sure the flyer will be in the space marine codex due out later this year.

I'm pretty sure there still ARE criminals forced into SM service. Like servitors.And also, you can still be a monk even if you were a criminal before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shandara wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Agreed

Technically the Imperial Guard should have none and "imperial" air cover is that requested and provided by the Navy and hence is normally only avaialble as "allies" for all Imperial forces - Astartes, Sororitas, Guard, Mechanicum, etc.

The Eldar and Tau have intergrated aerial elements to the military machine and which two armies have no flyers?

Tryanids create bio wepaons to deal with whatever comes along - but no proper flyers or air defense

But as said - Marines have to be keep being given new toys, even if it rewrites the fluff to suit, at the expense of others.............- (disclaimer I also play marines)

The IG should have none? Sorry but even our armies today have air cover provided by Apaches/Black Hawks etc etc. and they're not piloted by Navy or Air Force. What's wrong with the IG having flyers?

Space Marines are supposed to be the Emperor's Finest. Why wouldn't they have lots of cool toys? Admittedly I'd have gone a different way with the Storm Talon design. That said, GW has come a long way from what they were so why shouldn't they make more miniatures to fill in the gaps so to speak.

There's supposed to be a real divide between the Guard, Navy and Space Marines etc.. so that no one party has a full force capable of everything. Because of the Horus Heresy and so on.

That doesn't necessarily mean they won't use aircraft.

They'll use aircraft, but they won't be their own. It'll be support from the Navy, piloted by Navy pilots.

The IG should have none? Sorry but even our armies today have air cover provided by Apaches/Black Hawks etc etc. and they're not piloted by Navy or Air Force. What's wrong with the IG having flyers? Space Marines are supposed to be the Emperor's Finest. Why wouldn't they have lots of cool toys? Admittedly I'd have gone a different way with the Storm Talon design. That said, GW has come a long way from what they were so why shouldn't they make more miniatures to fill in the gaps so to speak.

Short answer - read the actual fluff with regards to this - its NOT a modern intergrated army - its several different independant organisations that sometimes fight together and often have problems doing so. There is a clear in universe reason for this as below:

There's supposed to be a real divide between the Guard, Navy and Space Marines etc.. so that no one party has a full force capable of everything. Because of the Horus Heresy and so on.

Based on the review done by Rob Baer (Spikey Bits) on YouTube, I will NOT be getting this piece of trash.

I rather like the book.

I dislike how it was handled, though. They should have had ample copies available for the stores to order and stock them. I am not a fan of Direct Order products that have game altering rules (points to some fliers changed, some rules tweeked, etc) not being readily available to the Brick and Mortar stores on day 1.

 Pacific wrote:
I think it's far more likely that it has a more ominous meaning for the sisters... GW have said that they won't ever 'Squat' another 40k army - so we know there won't be any danger of every SoB suddenly getting wiped out in a warp storm or something. Instead we are far more likely to see 'death by omission', where an army just doesn't get any releases, any new notifications, and ends up like some kind of drunken bum sat in a cardboard box down an alley, mumbling incoherently about the 'good old days' of metal miniatures and faith points.

Not saying this is the case here (and I'm hoping it isn't!) but the sisters will be missing from that book either through someone's oversight, or deliberately.

It is the old problem that action begets motivation and not the other way around. GW does nothing with sisters because they are not overly popular and don't sell well, but their popularity and sales aren't going to change if you just keep offering the same old stuff for them either. They need to make an investment in the army with a solid codex, some new plastic kits and other options that would enable the army to be a real challanger in the ring and enable the army to stop looking so cookie cutter. Otherwise interest will never change.

Skriker

 kronk wrote:
I rather like the book.

I dislike how it was handled, though. They should have had ample copies available for the stores to order and stock them. I am not a fan of Direct Order products that have game altering rules (points to some fliers changed, some rules tweeked, etc) not being readily available to the Brick and Mortar stores on day 1.

I agree with you.

But day 1? I'm not sure if we are ever getting it at all. Supposing GW does another wave of product, and ships another 800 to the US, do you really think they won't do exactly what they did this time? It will go up on sale on the website, and tragically none will be available for stores to scramble for on the monday after.