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Batreps.com was a great site. Lots of very good games on there.

This is a free country and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I will say that mob rule is the general atmosphere of this forum. You"ll hear all kinds of people and your personal filter will have to be on if you want the facts. One poster did his homework and provided some data that does work for me. 2-3% must be added every year a company is in business to keep that company at pace with inflation as a rule. To see some numbers on inflation check this out http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation/DecadeInflation.asp

So yelling at GW about price increases has been proven to be, well, free speech, but not fact. I think the strategy of keeping prices down has been pretty good, not great, but good. The product has been good and when compared to the other plastic kits manufacturers, they rank high.

Finecast is proof that most companies do produce boners, but Ford is still around and they had the Pinto.

Another poster talked about other game companies and how they would still be around even if GW stopped producing. I have not seen a Warmachine store in my neighborhood, so I would have to say that GW is still a big player. They are a business and have re-organized the store front. The stock numbers have stayed level so that worked, time will tell if it works in the long term.

Our world is always evolving and any company that doesn't change and try new things will be passed by one that does. GW is not moving quickly enough in new and exciting ways IMHO, one look at games like Bolt Action and Warmachine proves that. I like their product, I think the rules need some innovation, and they need to let go of the old and push the new ideas. I really hope the next years bring some ideas that make us all go crazy.

No, I'm sorry, you'd have to be pants-on-head stupid not to see GW prices have gone up considerably, beyond inflation, and are not getting cheaper. Some pointless cherrypicked figures that don't take into account at-time prices are hardly 'proof' of that. Metal Kanz were $X and now plastic Kanz are $Y doesn't mean anything. How much was a box of three similar plastic models at the time the Kanz were $X? Probably cheaper than they are now. It's a false comparison, comparing two different models to one another as if they were the same. One only needs to look at the models that have been around for a very long time (the obvious example being plastic Guard, but there are others).

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
Finecast is proof that most companies do produce boners, but Ford is still around and they had the Pinto.

Yes, but you don't need to buy a Pinto to keep your Mustang running, you do however need to buy finecast to build an army in any of GW's game systems.

Finecast was definitely one of the kicks that made me most unhappy. Collecting Tyranids in Australia, when Zoanthropes, Tyrant Guards, Lictors, Hive Guard, Venomthropes and Biovores went to finecast the cost of finishing my army jumped massively, and then I went to buy a couple of the new "finecast" 'nids and the quality was well below that of the old metals, it definitely made me less than happy.

But to the OP, at the end of the day, I think it's worth reading the negative comments and deciding how much they affect you, if at all, and deciding whether or not you can enjoy the game om spite of them.

I personally think GW still make some good games, but they aren't as good as they used to be IMO and the value of them has dropped with all the competition around.

Yeah - right there. Models go to Finecast to avoid the rising price of tin (a perfectly reasonable thing to do for a company looking to save money), and yet their prices go up.

Not down. Not in line with inflation. Not cheaper than a completely different model from a decade ago. More expensive for the same thing in an inferior (and far cheaper) material.

 Zinderneuf wrote:
Have to admit, this forum is getting pretty bitter, almost as if it was cool to adopt a snide persona by much of the membership. Sad.

Dakka has always been Deadwood, you want a nice, polite, vigorously policed place with picket fences, go visit Warseer, just be careful what you say there or you may find yourself considered the outlaw or malcontent, they have a very rapid and conclusive policies there.

Dakka Dakka 'getting bitter'? When I came here 6 years back, it was a far more aggressive site and going back further, you stumble upon this site with a few questions and went innocently into the 40k forums, utterly dominated by a few names... you'd be torn up in short order.

Dakka is a far nicer place than it used to be, it's mods, for the most part, operate the long, strong leash policy, which is far better suited to me than the immediate sledgehammer approach found elsewhere. Give me Deadwood, not any of these 'civilized' forums...





To the OP, 40k, warhammer fantasy and all the rest of the games GW makes are great, full of 30 years of evolved lore and wonderful imagery. I love them.
The company it's self has become, over the years since it became a public company, accused of being highly aggressive, aloof, cynical and exploitative. I am personally not a fan of the company's corporate side, in fact I'm fairly directly hostile to many of the behaviors it's demonstrated and in the last 2-3 years, that aggression and willingness to hike prices seems to have become 'turned up to 11'. I and many others here, resent these behaviors, others see them as necessary and have a good deal of loyalty to the company. You pay your money and you make your choice. For me, the price of the minis has greatly exceeded how much they are worth to me (the perceived worth by customer) and so I buy far less of them and find it far more difficult to justify my occasional purchasing, both to myself and to my wife. So, with many and varied slights against the hobbyist, cynical pricing, aloof and isolated attitude and a refusal to interact with the community, it leaves people cross.
I love much of what the design studio gives us (although I feel lately, there is pressure on them to produce toys and cash grabs, which has detrimentally affected production) but hate the company's behavior and stance.

If I were to start from scratch, I'd firstly check about the local gaming population and who plays what (it may be that your local gaming community doesn't even play GW games), then, if they do play GW, I'd understand where they play, if not a GW store (and gaming in GW stores is being phased out), I'd likely build a 40k army using Mantic figures.

My answer is if you do not the way GW is going vote with you wallet. I am not saying or starting a boycott but if you dont like what is going of then stop buying your plastic crack. I did two years ago and have not looked back since. There is just too much good stuff to throw money in the hobby to be locked down to one system. So if you just stop buying and stop complaining that will do more in the long run.

I may be a bit of an outsider as I've been gaming since the early 80s (when I was wee) but only started in 40k last year with a bunch of my friends. I've put a couple hundred dollars in, but that was mostly 3rd party and used models.

A lot of my friends haven't stuck with it, and to be honest if I had to do it again, I wouldn't. I love the modeling, but the game itself doesn't return the investment in fun for me. Games like Heroclix, Warmachine or Zombicide have much more bang for the buck imo.

But it is written that one day the empire of sloth will pass away and grownups will take over. On that day I will return, and the squats are coming with me.

Wait, what did the OP ask? Whoose been fething with muh medicine...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No, I'm sorry, you'd have to be pants-on-head stupid not to see GW prices have gone up considerably, beyond inflation, and are not getting cheaper. .

Heh since you referred the term Pants-on-Head Thought I post this url of VGcats. The pants collector. Humorous to say the least.

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=160

We got to add a little humor once in a while before we go be to the Dark knights battle the White knights for the minds of many in the hobby

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
This is a free country and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I will say that mob rule is the general atmosphere of this forum. You"ll hear all kinds of people and your personal filter will have to be on if you want the facts. One poster did his homework and provided some data that does work for me. 2-3% must be added every year a company is in business to keep that company at pace with inflation as a rule. To see some numbers on inflation check this out http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation/DecadeInflation.asp

So yelling at GW about price increases has been proven to be, well, free speech, but not fact. I think the strategy of keeping prices down has been pretty good, not great, but good. The product has been good and when compared to the other plastic kits manufacturers, they rank high.

And as was pointed out - it was not a good bit of homework (got an A for effort though).

Since I don't have any of the 40K army books handy anymore - I had to wait for someone to do the pointing for me on this...but I started with an old 1500 point Space Marine army list I used back in 3rd Edition - nothing tricky, just a balanced list. To buy everything in FY2004, it would cost $370. FY2005 that jumped up to $425. FY2006 it went to $455. FY2007 it stayed the same. FY2008 actually saw a small drop to $452 (retooled Devastators that were released at a cheaper price). Currently it would cost $516 to do.

If we slide the numbers along for inflation we get $454.75, $505.23, $523.99, $509.47, and $487.40 for FY2008. All of those starting years would mean the price increases are beyond inflation except for the FY2006 prices. But, it gets better still - the 1500 point army in 3rd Edition became a 1418 point army in 4th Edition (2004...not sure which quarter off the top of my head) and a 1437 point army in 5th Edition. Sure, you could soak up some of those points by tagging on extra bits here and there (extra armor on Rhinos, upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master...) - but the rules tended to favor buying something new like another transport for a squad on foot or one of the shiney units released with the latest Codex...so realistically you can add another $25-50 onto the price of the original army for each new edition.

The bigger issue for me though is that inflation is irrelevant. You look at any class of goods that fall into the optional, luxury or entertainment categories and they are not tied to inflation. They either stay the same or decrease in price over time (or for the few which are tied to a commodity they rise and fall with that commodity). If you look at a new release video game in 2004 - it will run you $49.99. If I go on over to Best Buy today - a new release video game will run me $49.99. Back in 1996 when the first Blood Bowl video game was released it retailed for $49.95. Music, movies, other games, books, sports equipment...

That same trend holds true pretty much across the board - and even into miniatures which other companies are producing (run the same experiment on a company like PP or Reaper to see how their prices have changed in the same period of time...and they are pegged to a commodity that has skyrocketed in the last 10 years. Heck, even if you go much bigger... The base price for a Corvette in 2004 was $46,535 and now it is $49,600 a good $8K below inflation.

So no, inflation is not a factor in whether or not I think the price increases which GW has done are reasonable.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
So no, inflation is not a factor in whether or not I think the price increases which GW has done are reasonable.

Of course it's not. Minimum wage is .

Welcome to the bandwagon Loki.

Pacific wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

I think one of the worst things for the hobby has been the internet.

Come on man... that has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have read on here in a long time, I don't think you need to say why

The painting and modelling side of the hobby as improved dramatically since the internet forums kicked in. It is truly amazing to be able to see a model that you like and ask the painter how they did it instantly from anywhere in the world. That part of the 40K hobby is rock solid. It takes a certain amount of energy/momentum to keep a hobby going though. GW seems to keep finding ways of sucking the energy out of people at the moment, which I find sad. As I said previously, if you can find a good group they will get you going and keep you going. Trying to maintain enthusiasm by yourself takes a lot of self-motivation. I did it myself when 3rd Ed. blew everything out of the water (at least initially), so I know how hard it is. So...listen to the nay-sayers but make your own decision based on how much energy you have for the hobby.

What's "the 40K hobby"?

I would define it as any combination of collecting, modelling, painting and playing with miniatures produced by GW. Others may have a different definition, depending on how creative/obstinate they are.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Welcome to the bandwagon Loki.

I've been here all along. While I still play and enjoy 40k, I've been sitting in the corner of the wagon with everyone else regarding GW's practices.

The minimum wage argument particularly.

I think the internet community aspect of 40k is the easiest thing on earth to control. Don't want to hear negative analysis or critques of GW? Don't read Dakka. It's not like any major news isn't eventually disseminated through a dozen or more forums, blogs, and sites.

To the OP: things are different now. I'll try to seperate my own thoughts on 40k these days from a relatively objective assessment. I'll compare things now to when I started, in 2002.

the models are almost universally surperior in scupt quality, although often much less flexibile in their overall buildability. The range is larger, far more is in plastic, and more and more plastic kits can build multiple units. The Starter boxes are incredible, with kickass models for a decent (but no longer great) price. The codexes are better now in terms of internal balance (between the units in a book) as well as amongst the books themselves. Third party manufacturers, and the Indy GT scene have caused an explosion in conversion and competition opportunities.

The bad: GW has steadily reduced what of their range is availabe, shutting down bitz, and then moving more and more stuff into plastic. Of course, now they appear to be cracking down on bitz sellers. Finecast was a complete debacle, coupling staggering QC issues with higher prices made it the punchline of 2011. Increased plastic/finecast hurts those that buy used as well. The embargo on OZ/NZ has left a sour taste in people's mouths.

The ugly: prices! Not all of the price increase is necessarily GW's fault: in 10 years products are going to cost more. Some of the jumps have been jarring: Catachans went from $25 for 20 to $29 for 10. Tacticals went from $25 to $40, with a slight improvment in the special weapon selection. And these are plastic models, that should be far less inpacted by commodities prices. Now, the rise of Warmachine shows that gamers dont' shop entirely on price, but for people that already have any army, realizing you can start a second game for the cost of a small 40k army is a big wake up.

Regarding prices:

My Tau army consists of;

2004-5-6 prices

Eight Crisis suits = £80
Two Ethereals = £10
Aun'Shi = £7
Space Pope = £20

Eight metal Stealth Suits = £15
Six Plastic Stealth Suits = £30

Four x 12 Fire Warriors = £60
16 Kroot = £15

Four Devilfish = £72

Two Hammerheads = £40
Two Broadsides = £24
Six Sniper Drones = £24

Codex = £10

Total = £413
Total without VAT = £353

Cost at 2013 prices

Eight Crisis suits = £121
Two Ethereals = £19
Aun'Shi = £10.50
Space Pope = £23.50

Eight metal Stealth Suits = £32
Six Plastic Stealth Suits = £32

Four x 12 Fire Warriors = £88
16 Kroot = £22

Four Devilfish = £90

Two Hammerheads = £70
Two Broadsides = £60
Six Sniper Drones = £48

Codex = £30

Total = £646
Total without VAT = £563

£563/£353 = 1.59 -- a 59% increase in price over 7 years.

To be fair, the Broadside suit has been replaced with a new model. None of the other models are new though some have been changed to Finecast.
My models were bought in 2004-5, and in 2006 after the 4th edition codex release.

You can explain the price difference KK by looking at the UK minimum wage.

See! Cheaper!

No, no, wait....

Not cheaper!

I did some maths not long ago for my Imperial Guard army.

My 1500pt Imperial Guard army, with a minimal of wasted models.

£506.70

Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce
3 Imperial Guard Chimeras
Guardsman Marbo
1 Leman Russ Battletank
1 Imperial Guard Manticore
2 Imperial Guard Valkyries
3 Mordian Iron Guard Squads
4 Mordian Iron Guard Flamers + Meltas
4 Mordian Iron Guard Grenade Launchers
1 Mordian Sergeant
1 Mordian Lascannon
4 Mordian Autocannons
1 Steel Legion Commissar
1 Mordian Lieutenant
2 Cadian Special Weapon Blisters

Wasted Models: 1 Sentinel.

-------------------------

Ok, so, fair enough. That's a mostly metal army.

So, dropping all the Mordians, replacing them with:

A second Cadian Battleforce
4 packs of 5 man cadians
Another heavy weapon squad,

You come to an ultra cheap total of ONLY: £435.10

For 1500 points. That's just crazy.

My Blood Angels army at 1750 points, though I did a lot of converting / kitbashing.

2 Battleforces
Sanguinary Guard
Space Marine Predator
2 Jump Pack packs
Land Raider Crusader
Librarian in Terminator Armour
Assault Terminator squad.

£293.50

-------------

Quite frankly, I'm lucky it's taken me over 2 years to paint up my Blood Angels. That and ebay exists.

Some armies got cheaper; some got more expensive. That's the way it goes. I intend to set up a web app at some point allowing people to easily calculate changes in their army's price. My point is not the obviously wrong "GW prices have decreased for everyone," but rather that prices have decreased for some people and increased for others, so saying that GW constantly increases prices is a false generalization.

It's never been this bad.

People have been saying it's this bad for 20+ years, but it's never actually been this bad.

Unfortunately GW has turned the crazed, obsolete Chaos Dwarf army clutching, GW hating ranter of the late 90s in to the farsighted prophet of today.

Compared to just 10 years ago, I can't go to a Canadian Games Day, I can't enter a Canadian Golden Demon, I can't attend any GW sanctioned events, let alone anything like the five GTs I went to. They can't engage someone who was already commited to their product (me).
I can't even buy the last expansion for 40k at my FLGS! Good thing I don't play 40k anymore I guess.

That's exaggerated by the fact that, if you're a gamer, the market has never been this good, in terms of breadth or depth.

 Kingsley wrote:
...saying that GW constantly increases prices is a false generalization.

Except that it isn't. GW raises the prices virtually every year on significant chunks of their entire product line. You cherry pick items like metal Raveners vs plastic Raveners, when the plastic ones are obviously cheaper, yet you don't factor in how much a box of plastic Raveners (which costs the same as a box of Tyranid Warriors - a box that hasn't changed since realease) would be had it come out when the Tyranid Warriors came out. I reckon you'll see a difference.

GW raise prices. Things don't go down. New models get replaced, but no model goes down.

Trying to say that some went up and some went down and "that's life" is basically a golden mean fallacy.

...saying that GW constantly increases prices is a false generalization.

Than why is the "yearly price hike" part of the GW fan vernacular?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Than why is the "yearly price hike" part of the GW fan vernacular?

Yeah but those only happen as a reaction to global minimum wage trends, so they don't count.

 plastictrees wrote:


Compared to just 10 years ago, I can't go to a Canadian Games Day, I can't enter a Canadian Golden Demon, I can't attend any GW sanctioned events, let alone anything like the five GTs I went to.

Just because you cant go to GW events does not mean that there are not equal or better events to go to now. There are plenty of big regional events to attend if you are into competitive 40k. I would prefer that GW supported tournaments but since other options are available its hardly a reason to drop the hobby.

NonGW events allow you to use models other than strictly gw so some people would consider this a benefit. Some big whfb events allowed the CD fan army book to be used and GW would never do that, ever.

GW has basically been left behind in the tournament scene in North America and I dont think that is altogether bad. Their last gasp was ardboyz and it is a good thing that abomination has ended,

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
...saying that GW constantly increases prices is a false generalization.

Except that it isn't. GW raises the prices virtually every year on significant chunks of their entire product line. You cherry pick items like metal Raveners vs plastic Raveners, when the plastic ones are obviously cheaper, yet you don't factor in how much a box of plastic Raveners (which costs the same as a box of Tyranid Warriors - a box that hasn't changed since realease) would be had it come out when the Tyranid Warriors came out. I reckon you'll see a difference.

GW raise prices. Things don't go down. New models get replaced, but no model goes down.

Trying to say that some went up and some went down and "that's life" is basically a golden mean fallacy.

Certainly some models do go down outside of replacement. Crisis Suits, for instance, just got a price drop. And throwing replacements out seems like a pretty substantial mistake. If I start a new Tau army and want to buy some Pathfinders, you can bet I'm a lot happier buying the new, relatively inexpensive boxed set with lots of options than I am with buying a bunch of expensive blisters with limited posing and conversion potential!

Strictly speaking, that isn't really a "price decrease," it's just a new, cheaper, and better kit in the exact same role. But in practice, that means it's both a price decrease and a quality increase!

AegisGrimm wrote:

...saying that GW constantly increases prices is a false generalization.

Than why is the "yearly price hike" part of the GW fan vernacular?

Because GW increases prices on some items every year. GW also decreases prices on some items (or puts out new, cheaper, and better kits replacing old ones) every year, but a lot of people only pay attention to the price increases. This is both thanks to the general negativity on these forums and the fact that typically the price increases come all it once. If I were in charge of GW, I would mix a few of the decreases in with the increases, which I believe would have a fair chance of mitigating much of the negativity-- but, truth be told, it seems that GW keeps on selling regardless of the negative attitude on some forums, so perhaps they've simply figured out that a lot of the negative voices aren't really potential customers anyway.

JWhex wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:


Compared to just 10 years ago, I can't go to a Canadian Games Day, I can't enter a Canadian Golden Demon, I can't attend any GW sanctioned events, let alone anything like the five GTs I went to.

Just because you cant go to GW events does not mean that there are not equal or better events to go to now. There are plenty of big regional events to attend if you are into competitive 40k. I would prefer that GW supported tournaments but since other options are available its hardly a reason to drop the hobby.

NonGW events allow you to use models other than strictly gw so some people would consider this a benefit. Some big whfb events allowed the CD fan army book to be used and GW would never do that, ever.

GW has basically been left behind in the tournament scene in North America and I dont think that is altogether bad. Their last gasp was ardboyz and it is a good thing that abomination has ended,

I agree with JWhex. While I wish GW still held big tournaments and events, the independent tournament circuit for 40k has never been stronger, and there are lots of cool new events cropping up. I hated 'Ard Boyz and thought it encouraged the worst elements of the hobby, so I didn't mind seeing it go at all.

I can't agree more about 'Ard Boyz. We'll be dealing with the fallout from that for a while yet, I'm afraid.

JWhex wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:


Compared to just 10 years ago, I can't go to a Canadian Games Day, I can't enter a Canadian Golden Demon, I can't attend any GW sanctioned events, let alone anything like the five GTs I went to.

Just because you cant go to GW events does not mean that there are not equal or better events to go to now. There are plenty of big regional events to attend if you are into competitive 40k. I would prefer that GW supported tournaments but since other options are available its hardly a reason to drop the hobby.

NonGW events allow you to use models other than strictly gw so some people would consider this a benefit. Some big whfb events allowed the CD fan army book to be used and GW would never do that, ever.

GW has basically been left behind in the tournament scene in North America and I dont think that is altogether bad. Their last gasp was ardboyz and it is a good thing that abomination has ended,

Which is all very nice, but misses the point that GW have never been worse at supporting their own product, entirely.