Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Part of me still can't believe it. I always thought Epic was like an exile who would one day come back to regain its rightful place as a main game.

I get annoyed at GW often these days, but this is the first time they've actually made me sad.

Goodnight Reaver, goodnight Thunderbolt, say hello to Imperator for me. *sniff*

GW really did their best to kill off Epic, which was a core game in the 1990's. Aside from that it was also a major source of background expansion, and even now current 40K is still often resurrecting the old Epic background in the form of new units for 40K, such as the Nightspinner and the Deathstrike.

The loss of Epic and BFG will mean that much less richness for the 40K universe as those games were about aspects of warfare in the 40K universe that were not really looked at in a typical 40K game.

The re-release of Epic in E40K was an unmitigated disaster, mainly because they threw the baby out with the bathwater and wiped out all the rich detail for some bland new system which was not what players wanted. Then when that flopped, GW pulled the line in the apparent mistaken belief that players would still spend money on the main 40K line. They were wrong as a fair number of Epic players quit altogether or continued playing Epic with what they already had. The fan made NetEpic project was done keep the parts of the old Epic system that were good.

All subsequent attempts by GW to resurrect Epic failed because it was never given the attention it deserved and was always a side project by Specialist Games. Deprived of miniature and advertising support, it wasn't enough though wasn't as loathed as the originally E40K ruleset.

They could've made plenty of money on Necromunda and Mordhiem if they updated the kits like they do their big games, but I think they just felt they were cheaper then their army games for players, so they were taking money from themselves.

Any Necromunda players, check out Deadzone on Kickstarter. Any Blood Bowl players, check out Dreadball. Mantic is picking up the pieces and putting out good product. As a small company, their bound to continue to support these fine games if we make them profitable.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/deadzone-the-sci-fi-miniatures-board-game

Earth Dragon wrote:

Any Necromunda players, check out Deadzone on Kickstarter.

As said many times in this thread, yeah, other scifi skirmish games are out there. There have always been other scifi skirmish games. But they aren't Necromunda.

Pity. I was just saving up to get a Repulsive and a Possessed Cruiser!!! UGH!

I've just bought an entire flotilla of the plastic cruisers, and was looking to round out my collection!

The least they could do was announce it in the newsletter, as opposed to tooting their horn about the latest codex which they're digitised, or the biggest plastic kit they've produced so far...

Or outsource, really. (Which they'd of course never do.)

And I hear some talking about Firestorm Armada. I don't know, I personally dislike their aesthetic...:( The same goes for most other fleet games - because they lack character to me. BFG minis (at least the Chaos, Imperial and Eldar ones, and cruiser class and above) do capture the essence of their factions rather well, without looking all the same and/or like flying lunchboxes.

EDIT: Hence, I agree with Darth Bob on this. There are other ships out there, but they aren't BFG. :/

EDIT2:

 Darth Bob wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:

Any Necromunda players, check out Deadzone on Kickstarter.

As said many times in this thread, yeah, other scifi skirmish games are out there. There have always been other scifi skirmish games. But they aren't Necromunda.

have to agree... just not the same

 Darth Bob wrote:
But they aren't Necromunda.

Exactly, and not even when they're written by one of the guys who worked on Necromunda.


And my Kal Jericho/Scabs and Cawdor box arrived today!

BYE

The point is to support other games of the genre and build up the market. GW will revive the game if they are smart.

Well, after much annoyance that I couldn't purchase the Imperial and Eldar squadrons Aeronautica Imperialis I wanted, I decided to fill out my Ork squadron instead.... so I add a few Ork things to my cart and go to checkout, update my shipping info and my bank decides to reject the payment, by the time I sort it out the Grot Bombs and Blasta Bommer have gone out of stock.

Frak it, I hate GW so much right now, could they seriously not have given us a few weeks notice? I'm so disenchanted by the hobby right now. I'm going to go drive my car, a hobby that seems to bite me in the arse far less than GW.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well, after much annoyance that I couldn't purchase the Imperial and Eldar squadrons Aeronautica Imperialis I wanted, I decided to fill out my Ork squadron instead.... so I add a few Ork things to my cart and go to checkout, update my shipping info and my bank decides to reject the payment, by the time I sort it out the Grot Bombs and Blasta Bommer have gone out of stock.

Frak it, I hate GW so much right now, could they seriously not have given us a few weeks notice? I'm so disenchanted by the hobby right now. I'm going to go drive my car, a hobby that seems to bite me in the arse far less than GW.

Obligatory "despite what they'd have you believe, GW aren't the hobby" post.

Backfire wrote:
Of course in theory, this COULD mean switch to Finecast - but they couldn't tell us about it because of their secrecy policy...

Not sure which alternative is worst.

 Elemental wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well, after much annoyance that I couldn't purchase the Imperial and Eldar squadrons Aeronautica Imperialis I wanted, I decided to fill out my Ork squadron instead.... so I add a few Ork things to my cart and go to checkout, update my shipping info and my bank decides to reject the payment, by the time I sort it out the Grot Bombs and Blasta Bommer have gone out of stock.

Frak it, I hate GW so much right now, could they seriously not have given us a few weeks notice? I'm so disenchanted by the hobby right now. I'm going to go drive my car, a hobby that seems to bite me in the arse far less than GW.

Obligatory "despite what they'd have you believe, GW aren't the hobby" post.

Hey, if that awesome commission scratchbuilding chap decides to put out a range of gothic space ships, I will be first in line to buy them, but why is it so hard for some of you guys to grasp that some of us are into these games for more than just pushing markers around on a table?

I have no issues using third-party stuff for GW games now that I no longer play in their store very often, but I select those models carefully to ensure they fit the existing aesthetic, and there simply aren't any miniatures that fit the BFG aesthetic out there right now unlike Necromunda and Mordheim. Well, I lie, there's one single solitary cruiser on Shapeways, which looks rather nice, but they want 28-bleeding-euros for it shipped in Frosted Ultra-detail(ie, the only material that has enough fidelity for miniatures on that scale).

 beartree wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Of course in theory, this COULD mean switch to Finecast - but they couldn't tell us about it because of their secrecy policy...

Not sure which alternative is worst.

Oh, definitely converting Goodwin's Eschers into pockmarked, rubbery finecast. That's practically iconoclasm.

At least Heresy Miniatures has a set of absolutely awesome Delaque stand-ins. Other than weapons options and nostalgia value, I think they surpass GW's actual models.

For some reason, I keep feeling like GW is trying to remove any possibility that I would use nostalgia as part of my motivation to give them more of my money. I'm assuming those of us (that are left) that are long-time gamers of 40K product feel the same way.

I have all the Necromunda and Mordheim info so those games will continue without any worry. I've manage to acquire armies in Epic for Orks, IG, SM, and CSM. I've got some extra eldar stuff laying around and I could pretty easily build a necron force out of other systems. I've now manage to get my hands on at least one of almost all BFG ships so if I need to I can cast up fleets of ships for models I can't get anymore.

The saddest part for me is that finding people that play is going to get even harder. The upside is that I'm lucky enough to be able to provide forces for anyone who wants to learn or just play for fun in my local area so at least theres that....

It is a sad day. I always hoped they would bring back BFG and Epic and give them the support and love they deserve but it looks like they are off to join Man O' War and Gorkamorka in the great big game box in the sky.

On another note I just tried to place an order for some Steel Legion stuff but none of the item numbers or descriptions appeared in the checkout pages. (most of the old metal IG had this problem) I placed the order anyways and sent an email to GW to enquire but I am afraid I may have missed the train for picking up these guys.

The saddest part for me is that finding people that play is going to get even harder. The upside is that I'm lucky enough to be able to provide forces for anyone who wants to learn or just play for fun in my local area so at least theres that....

That's the one good thing I have going for me. I've never had any friends who were willing to do anything in the hobby other than play with me, so for every game system I have, I own two opposing armies for, at the very least. So worst case scenario for games like BFG, I will always have an Imperial Fleet and a Ork fleet to play the game with, each of about 15 ships. I always hated the prices of the GW Tau stuff, so I have been thinking of various Firestorm Armada ships that would be good counts-as Tau, because lots of their ship models will fit the tau aesthetic. That would at least give a third fleet. It sucks not to have Eldar, though.

Gorkamorka can always be played, because as long as 40K continues to run I'll have Ork stuff. I can't play Muties or Diggas, but I'll at least have enough for core game stuff and Rebel Grots (with kitbashed vehicles).

I always wanted to make a foray into Epic, bit I've only ever had an interest in the original 1990's era stuff, like the main game, Titan Legions, etc. Too bad I was too young for much else than 40K back then. If I knew back then what I know now, I would have spread out more so I'd have it now to drag out of the closet to play.

For Necromunda, I have 4-5 'workable' gangs, thank god. I can also always get my "small skirmish-level 40K genre" fix with 4th edition games like Kill team rules, the "40K in 40 minutes" variant rules, and even fan made rules like In the Emperor's Name can be very fun.

 heresy_30k wrote:
It is a sad day. I always hoped they would bring back BFG and Epic and give them the support and love they deserve but it looks like they are off to join Man O' War and Gorkamorka in the great big game box in the sky.

Man O' War might be dead, as I'm not sure what's status of that particular trademark, but almost all Specialist Games are ripe for the Space Hulk treatment, another game we thought dead and buried, and one that turned out to be a great success for GW.

Releasing a box full of Mordheim warbands sculpted to the recent standard and calling it a day is something that GW can still do because it will sell. Madly. Just like a bunch of Terminators and Stealers sold like hot cakes.

And I'd take it over the twilight half death of what we had up until this point.

The Space Hulk treatment sucks. The Space Hulk treatment means spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing moulds and then refusing to use them. I hate manufacturers that restrict the availability of metal or restic miniatures, but making limited edition plastics is just stupid.

 AlexHolker wrote:
The Space Hulk treatment means spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing moulds

Does it though? I know for folks who outsource their plastics manufacturing it can, but GW's production is all in-house now, isn't it? So, for them, it would be the absolute minimum it could be (raw materials, plus labor cost).

I think that is why they started doing character models in plastic.

~Eric

 AlexHolker wrote:
The Space Hulk treatment sucks. The Space Hulk treatment means spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing moulds and then refusing to use them. I hate manufacturers that restrict the availability of metal or restic miniatures, but making limited edition plastics is just stupid.

Almost as stupid as restricting the access and use of your own goods. Oh wait GW did that

The exact number depends on the size and number of moulds you're making, but the point is that most of the cost of releasing a model in plastic is the up front costs. The more copies you make, the thinner you spread that overhead cost, and the better your profit margins are. Hence why arbitrarily limiting the number of copies produced is stupid.

 AlexHolker wrote:
The Space Hulk treatment sucks. The Space Hulk treatment means spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing moulds and then refusing to use them. I hate manufacturers that restrict the availability of metal or restic miniatures, but making limited edition plastics is just stupid.

Agreed. I have been in this hobby long enough to remember when some of the specialist games were just as popular as the mainline products. BFG was huge back in the day. Letting these games die was huge business mistake for GW. Just look at the success of the smaller companies that have been able to chip away in areas where GW has given ground in the market.

 AlexHolker wrote:
The exact number depends on the size and number of moulds you're making, but the point is that most of the cost of releasing a model in plastic is the up front costs. The more copies you make, the thinner you spread that overhead cost, and the better your profit margins are. Hence why arbitrarily limiting the number of copies produced is stupid.

Sorry, should have been more clear: I think the fact that their up front costs being the absolute minimum means that they should do MORE with plastics. Like with the character models. I actually agree with you. They would make profit faster, because their costs are lower.

This also baffled me about Space Hulk. The cost was minimal, and likely covered by the initial run. Why limit it? I think demand would have been there anyway. Plus, limiting quantities to increase demand doesn't always work, seemingly as with Dreadfleet.

~Eric

Well, Space Hulk gives us a good example of how stupid GW is about their business practices overall.

First: Tell us that their high plastic figure prices are forced by the extremely high costs of making molds, which takes hundreds of units sold to pay back the investment. Claims that a squad of Space marines require molds that run into the tens of thousands of dollars to make. This versus much smaller companies selling their plastic figures at a lower price, proving that the mold/price excuse is a complete exaggeration.

Second: Re-release Space Hulk, with a full dozen unique Terminator Sculpts, and half a dozen or so new genestealer sculpts. But then immediately restrict sales to a (relatively) small number to increase damend (when that's not even remotely required), despite the public clamoring for more units to be made, proving the demand is there to be met, and also that those further sales, if kept going after the supposedly expensive molds are paid off (likely the initial run, as has been stated), are pure friggin' profit.

GW could have been selling Space Hulk, even at a 150 dollar price point, all these years and been moving product. Though they probably think that every 100 dollars spent on Space Hulk by a consumer, is a $100 loss for 40K product, despite all the money going into the same corporate pockets. Idiots. Everyone in a high school economics class knows that when you invest into something, you try to make every single dollar you can back from it.

Specialist games is the exact same thing. All those models have been paid off for years and years.

 Elemental wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well, after much annoyance that I couldn't purchase the Imperial and Eldar squadrons Aeronautica Imperialis I wanted, I decided to fill out my Ork squadron instead.... so I add a few Ork things to my cart and go to checkout, update my shipping info and my bank decides to reject the payment, by the time I sort it out the Grot Bombs and Blasta Bommer have gone out of stock.

Frak it, I hate GW so much right now, could they seriously not have given us a few weeks notice? I'm so disenchanted by the hobby right now. I'm going to go drive my car, a hobby that seems to bite me in the arse far less than GW.

Obligatory "despite what they'd have you believe, GW aren't the hobby" post.

I know GW aren't the hobby, hence why I specified unhappiness with GW specifically and being bitten in the arse by GW specifically. But given my investment in GW, they are fully capable of making me disenchanted with the hobby as a whole. Kind of like how a string of crappy video games can make you disenchanted with video gaming or a crappy car can make you disenchanted with cars or a crappy ex-girlfriend can make you disenchanted with women.

GW have successfully made me disenchanted with the hobby.

For space hulk I suspect the thinking was that if they left it on general release it might have cannibalise their sales of Terminators & genestealers

it had 12 terminators & a terminator librarian, 22 genestealers and a broodlord

how did the original cost compare to buying an equivalent set of minis ?

I think the hidden costs for GW regarding Space Hulk was the rest of the contents, not the models. I suspect the printing of all that nice glossy, embossed cardboard was the real money sink. Of course, this means GW could have done the smart thing and simply continued to sell the model sprues separately. But that would have been the smart thing.

GW has also always had the asinine policy of if they can't maintain shelf space for it in their own stores, then they'll simply stop promoting or even producing it (because, you know, online sales and FLGS don't count). Of course, ditching the Hobbit would create shelf space in their stores for Specialist Games.

I do have to admit that I somewhat think that this has been a big success for GW. After all, they got about $1000 of my money this week as I rushed to buy up all the SG stuff I still needed to get. So, short term profit for GW, but long term ill will from all of us gamers.

It would be nice if FFG could pick up the rights to make the SG lines. I think their limitation on model making is only that they can't make models that could potentially be used in GW's core games. So, FFG could easily make Blood Bowl, BFG, and Epic. Mordheim and Necromunda would be a bit more difficult, but still quite easy if they changed the scale of the models. Amusingly, the real irony in this would be that not only could FFG make the games amazingly profitable, but that the models wouldn't be made by GW and GW would thus miss out on lots of money that they could have been making themselves.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
For space hulk I suspect the thinking was that if they left it on general release it might have cannibalise their sales of Terminators & genestealers

Except people already do that with the starter boxes. My Ork army was built from 5 boxes of Assault on Black Reach, and I now have a Dark Angels and Chaos army from 4 boxes of Dark Vengeance (plus the leftover AoBR marines filled out my Chaos troops).

Space Hulk got you a better deal, as long as you were willing to have mono-pose figures.

It couldn't have stolen from the main range any more then Dark Vengeance does, when you consider what you get in that box versus what mainstream 40K boxes of comparable figures would cost. Using Space Hulk reasoning, the five Deathwing terminators "technically" make up half the price of Dark Vengeance.

I truly think it's simply that GW thinks that for every BFG battleship someone buys, they could be buying a box of Space Marines instead. And if you remove Specialist games.......

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
For space hulk I suspect the thinking was that if they left it on general release it might have cannibalise their sales of Terminators & genestealers

"Oh no! Instead of buying Terminator box A, our customers might buy Terminator box B!"

Concern about cannibalising sales is valid if you're deciding whether to make the new moulds or not. But once you've spent the time and money to make them, it is stupid to refuse to sell them specifically because some of your customers would prefer to buy them.