Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 -Loki- wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I simply still think that GW just doesn't want anything that could stop even one dollar from flowing into WHFB and 40K. A fleet for BFG stops more Space Marines from being bought.

See, this doesn't make sense. I'm not saying it's not how GW think, but it doesn't make sense. Same with the theory put forth that new plastic kits are given the best rules because GW need to pay off the mold for the model.

Any sale, of anything, is money in GW's pocket. That Battleship might not be a box of Marines sold, or the latest awesome plastic kit, but it's the same amount of money (Battleships were fething expensive) in their pocket. It's money that would go to paying off any money spent on tooling the latest plastic molds. They don't take, for example, the money made from Trygons and put it in a "Trygon mold" bank account until there's enough to pay off that mold. Specialist games sales don't go into a "Specialist games" bank account, only for use on Specialist games. Or at least I hope they don't.

The 'new kits get better rules' idea does make some sense. If the old kits are still better than the new kits, people who already have the army won't buy anything new (unless they just want something to paint or want to try something out for fun.) Making the new stuff better encourages people to not use their old, already paid for models but instead to buy new, give-cash-to-GW models. Fliers are a good example of this line of thinking. Of course, there are plenty of new kits with absolutely lackluster rules that are contrary to it. I lean a bit more towards incompetence vs. malice, but they both have some evidence for them.

It is genuine moron play.

I see this sort of stuff, I see corperation D bag written all over it.

Not only does GW not know what they are doing, they do it in such craptastic faction that you get the extra bonus of no reach around on every time they make this sort of play.

Just pull the plug already GW. Do it and stop the cycle of abuse.

Well, now I feel the pain of our brothers and sisters in Australia. I just bought a bunch of BFG stuff that was still in stock on the Australian GW website (including Rogue Trader cruisers, yay!) and paid the horrendously overpriced prices that GW charges (and yet, still cheaper than what a RT cruiser just sold for on Ebay this week).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I simply still think that GW just doesn't want anything that could stop even one dollar from flowing into WHFB and 40K. A fleet for BFG stops more Space Marines from being bought.

I suspect this is one of the reasons, too. Kirby & Company probably really believe that if people spend X amount of money on GW product, then they can axe the Specialist Games catalog and people will just buy 40K/WFB instead, which means GW still makes X amount of money. This not only saves them a bit of money since they no longer have to provide even the minimal support they were giving to the SG, but they think it will increase WFB/40K revenue, so they can keep thumping their chests for the stockholders about how the biggest selling games are selling even more.

It's the wrong way to look at it, though. Not every specialist games sale is necessarily money that would have gone to one of the two flagship games. Likewise, money spent on specialist games could later become money spent on a flagship game if that person really gets into the background and wants to go bigger, as I imagine was the case for lots of people who bought Space Hulk and got inspired to buy 40k based on that exposure to it.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Well, now I feel the pain of our brothers and sisters in Australia. I just bought a bunch of BFG stuff that was still in stock on the Australian GW website (including Rogue Trader cruisers, yay!) and paid the horrendously overpriced prices that GW charges (and yet, still cheaper than what a RT cruiser just sold for on Ebay this week).

It's not the model price that prevented me from doing that. It's the shipping charge. I was going to order just the Scythe and Rogue Trader Cruiser and the models were $60 and the shipping brought it up to like $97. I can't pay that just for the completionist in me. Not after I just picked up a large Eldar fleet for less than it would have retailed for on Ebay.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

aoxes wrote:
Okay, so...how about if someone buys the rights to Specialist Games range? Alternatively, they could simply license it to FFG and the likes. There is precedence and an existing relationship already in how FFG is making the 40k RPG. I'm guessing it's a logical jump.

Failing that, one can hope...

It's hard to be optimistic when GW cut ALL specialist games in one hit, including Aeronautica Imperialis which was Forge World. It doesn't give me hope of "restructuring" them, it screams "exterminatus" more than anything.

Aeronautica Imperialis has been on the outs for at least two years now with FW. This wasn't a "sudden development" for them like it was the Specialist Games range as a whole.

 Kanluwen wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

aoxes wrote:
Okay, so...how about if someone buys the rights to Specialist Games range? Alternatively, they could simply license it to FFG and the likes. There is precedence and an existing relationship already in how FFG is making the 40k RPG. I'm guessing it's a logical jump.

Failing that, one can hope...

It's hard to be optimistic when GW cut ALL specialist games in one hit, including Aeronautica Imperialis which was Forge World. It doesn't give me hope of "restructuring" them, it screams "exterminatus" more than anything.

Aeronautica Imperialis has been on the outs for at least two years now with FW. This wasn't a "sudden development" for them like it was the Specialist Games range as a whole.

I'm not sure how it was any more "on the outs" than any other specialist games, none of the specialist games have received any love for years.

Either way, that wasn't my point, my point was it's hard to imagine them actually trying to make something good out of it when they cut all ranges across both GW core and FW as well in one hit. Along with them cutting collectors ranges from 40k and Fantasy it doesn't tell me they are "restructuring" specialist games or collectors ranges, they are just getting rid of them and that is that.

At least that's the way it seems to me, maybe they'll surprise us and make a half decent attempt at reviving the specialist games, I'm sure as hell not holding my breath on it.

I wonder if any of these games might go the Talisman route and somehow end up being put out by another company under liscense.

I doubt it sadly, simply because the minis for most of them are cross-compatible with 40k/WHFB. Our best hope might be Christmas splash releases, though after DeadFleet and The Hobbit...

from my own experience Epic is completely dominated by the player base now, to the point of rules revisions and models being made in mass quantities. GW has not been in the picture for a while now.

 Azazelx wrote:
I doubt it sadly, simply because the minis for most of them are cross-compatible with 40k/WHFB. Our best hope might be Christmas splash releases, though after DeadFleet and The Hobbit...

I would love it if GW did a yearly release cycle for the Specialist Games. For example, release Battlefleet Gothic and over the next 6 months bring out all the models and provide support in White Dwarf and online, then slowly phase it out over the next six months to prepare to release the next game. Rinse, repeat. But, of course, this would make GW truckloads of money, and for some reason GW does not like truckloads of money. And for those who think this strategy wouldn't work: it did in the past.

Anyway, I could see FFG getting the license to make BFG, Epic, Blood Bowl, Inquisitor, and Warmaster, as those models could not be reused in on 40K or WFB (which is GW's reason for why FFG doesn't get to do some things). Mordheim and Necromunda? Not unless they change the scale of the models.

 studderingdave wrote:
from my own experience Epic is completely dominated by the player base now, to the point of rules revisions and models being made in mass quantities. GW has not been in the picture for a while now.

That is true. I really liked the rules created for Dark Eldar and Necron armies in the Renegades rulebook. That is a really well made set of rules on a par with what GW creates. I can envision groups getting together to cast up whatever they want for whatever specialist game system products they can no longer get. Given the materials available at craft stores, hobby shops, and places like home depot, combined with youtube tutorials or people that love the games who know how to do skilled casting, it's not that hard of a stretch to imagine.

Crap. I forgot to order some Forge World Epic 40k Reaver Titans before they disappeared. If there's any kind-hearted individuals out there who have an extra Reaver Titan or two, please message me; I'ill pay you the retail price plus shipping.

White blister Eldar just showed up on ebay...

 judgedoug wrote:
Crap. I forgot to order some Forge World Epic 40k Reaver Titans before they disappeared. If there's any kind-hearted individuals out there who have an extra Reaver Titan or two, please message me; I'ill pay you the retail price plus shipping.

Yeah, and if anyone has any Aeronautica Imperialis Eldar or Imperial Navy models they want to get rid of, let me know, I'm willing to pay, lol. I already have a bunch of Imperial fighters but not bombers or transports.

Relapse wrote:
I wonder if any of these games might go the Talisman route and somehow end up being put out by another company under liscense.

I doubt it. It just doesn't seem like the way GW works.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I doubt it sadly, simply because the minis for most of them are cross-compatible with 40k/WHFB. Our best hope might be Christmas splash releases, though after DeadFleet and The Hobbit...

I would love it if GW did a yearly release cycle for the Specialist Games. For example, release Battlefleet Gothic and over the next 6 months bring out all the models and provide support in White Dwarf and online, then slowly phase it out over the next six months to prepare to release the next game. Rinse, repeat. But, of course, this would make GW truckloads of money, and for some reason GW does not like truckloads of money. And for those who think this strategy wouldn't work: it did in the past.

Anyway, I could see FFG getting the license to make BFG, Epic, Blood Bowl, Inquisitor, and Warmaster, as those models could not be reused in on 40K or WFB (which is GW's reason for why FFG doesn't get to do some things). Mordheim and Necromunda? Not unless they change the scale of the models.

An annual cycle would be great, though the earliest we could even theoretical see that (with post-release support) would be after The Hobbit/LotR licence expires. The best we can hope for in the meantime (IMO) would be a BloodBowl/DreadFleet style limited splash release of Warhammer Quest or maybe BloodBowl. WHQ seems more likely, as it's more contained and smaller in the same way that Space Hulk is (Deathwing/Genestealer notwithstanding - they can just ignore the WHQ expansions as they did the SH ones).

The thing with Epic and BFG is that they're also quite large-scope games. As in, a lot of factions with a lot of figures. They'd have to pull a Dust Tactics in terms of releases and support, since those two (Epic especially) are a large, expansive proposition. BFG would be more doable, either with Boxed-set expansions, or X-Wing style extra ships, but the problem there could be a perception of competing against X-Wing/cannibalising X-Wing sales?

So, not to derail this thread, but I JUST learned about Epic. Seems i'm literally the latest one can be, to the party.

I see people saying the community has taken the project and sustained it with rules revisions, models, etc... Can someone point the way to all this? Knowing GW's militant rage against look-alike models... is this fan run epic filled with proxies (from whom?), and how might I get started?

Yeah, GW has kept a variety of games under it's hat. Hell, Dark Reign actually got Cease and Desist letters from GW for printing news about 40k RPG releases and I'm told by a very reliable source that they also pretty much ordered FFG management to stop posting there.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, not to derail this thread, but I JUST learned about Epic. Seems i'm literally the latest one can be, to the party.

I see people saying the community has taken the project and sustained it with rules revisions, models, etc... Can someone point the way to all this? Knowing GW's militant rage against look-alike models... is this fan run epic filled with proxies (from whom?), and how might I get started?

There exist two parallel, currently played games of Epic 6-8mm scale in W40k universe : the oldest takes its roots in Epic SM / Titan Legions, the second edition of the game, which was official up to 1996. When 3rd edition was released in 1997, the massive disappointment it has rouse to existing players has lead to the creation of Netepic collaborative project. It is an unofficial continuation of 2nd edition, having benefited from a large debug. Netepic also benefitted of lots of units introduced in later editions of the game (like LRBT variants, flyers...).

After the failure and crash-withdrawal of 3rd edition (Epic 40'000) GW (mostly Jervis Johnson) reworked it massively to bring a 4th edition : Epic Armageddon. They expanded some ideas introduced in the previous version (like impact markers), and brought back some detail in unit profiles, while streamlining some other aspects. In recent years, this edition was increasingly expanded and amended by his community, not by GW. While better than 3rd, and meant to be attractive to a newcomer audience, 4th edition Epic has not overshadowed old edition appeal, especially for veterans.

Still, the main problems with both versions lies not with the system you choose to play, but in the lack of figurines and partners. Some armies never get sufficient figurine support (chaos : only a multi infantry sprue), were only available through Forgeworld (Tau) or even not at all (Tyranids), meaning you had to browse ebay anyway. Some third party manufacturers exist, but having to produce distinct looking miniatures from GW means you can't get exact proxy for every official unit.

Forum for Netepic / Armageddon :
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

You can download Netepic there (Gold edition has heavy files) :
http://www.netepic.org/netepic.html

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, not to derail this thread, but I JUST learned about Epic. Seems i'm literally the latest one can be, to the party.

I see people saying the community has taken the project and sustained it with rules revisions, models, etc... Can someone point the way to all this? Knowing GW's militant rage against look-alike models... is this fan run epic filled with proxies (from whom?), and how might I get started?

NewTruthNeomaxim - I would agree more or less with Ravajaxe says, although wouldn't paint that bleak a picture!

For several reasons
- Epic used to be a really popular game. Honestly, I think at the time of 2nd edition release, and for some time after, it was getting on to being as popular as 40k. The importance of this is two fold; it means that firstly there are tons of models to buy second hand, it's still possible to get an army pretty cheaply, despite the price of new stuff from GW being mental for at least 5-6 years or more (and with a vastly reduced catalogue). Secondly, depending on the area you play, there will probably be a lot of guys who used to play Epic at one time. Maybe they still have an army? Almost certainly they will remember the game fondly, and it will probably be persuaded to dust off their old minis to play again.
- There are some pretty good proxie models. Most notable is from the Exodus Wars range from Steel Crown. They've got miniatures very similar to Space Marines, IG (various styles), Necrons, Chaos, even Squats. Actually, most of their range is better than the official plastic stuff ever was! Here is a good thread for it over on Tactical Command: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21593
There are also some good actual proxie model makers if you ask around

Rules wise there are several different versions out there. Internet community wise Epic Armageddon seems to be the most popular, although again you could probably just go with whatever is popular (none of the versions of the game were bad per say!)

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Yeah, GW has kept a variety of games under it's hat. Hell, Dark Reign actually got Cease and Desist letters from GW for printing news about 40k RPG releases and I'm told by a very reliable source that they also pretty much ordered FFG management to stop posting there.

For posting news? Like, what I do in the 40K RPG thread?

 Pacific wrote:
- Epic used to be a really popular game. Honestly, I think at the time of 2nd edition release, and for some time after, it was getting on to being as popular as 40k.

It certainly was. Space Marine 2nd Ed was a universal constant at GW. It was then as LOTR is now – the third game – and not a specialist game. The other cyclical games (Blood Bowl, Necro, Mordheim) came and went, yet Epic remained. I mean, the game had two core starter sets (Space Marine and Titan Legions), massive boxed supplement support (even the Squats had their own boxed expansion!) and a huge range of miniatures. Hell my first GW miniatures were Epic miniatures. The first time I went to the house of the guy who got me into 40K he was painting Epic Eldar Falcons.

The death of Epic was tragic, and Epic 40,000 was terrible.

I imagine I'm echoing the same sentiment as a lot of people, It's massive shame they're dropping them like this.

I mean, I'm only just getting into BFG as it is, and I basically had to fork out for a Space Marine fleet in 1 hit (because such things are damn near impossible to find second hand), rather than get it over the course of 6 months.

And even then, things like the Ramilies Star Fort that I really want, are out of stock and likely not coming back.
If anyone had one, I'd buy it, but it's damn near impossible to find. :(

And I would have liked to get into Epic, but then, that'll be easy enough to do with a 3D printer I guess!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

For posting news? Like, what I do in the 40K RPG thread?

Exactly that. It was before my time in charge, but mordy posted a photocopy of it (was part of the batch they sent out a year or so back) and the two things GW wanted to 'cease and desist' were reprinting FFG press releases and to cease forthwith having 40k artwork from either FFG or GW on the site. (Mind you, we made a point to attribute).


I always figured you got away with it because you worked for FFG. Sam had to delete his account on Dark Reign, apparently, following the C&D.

Lions eat thier young... story at 6:00.....

Enjoy a game, get a C and D for your trouble. Just like Blood Bowl

My original plan for this year:

Sell BFG Tau (for which I had already given monies to GW) and buy BFG Dark Eldar (for which I would give more monies to GW) and expand my 40k Dark Eldar (yet more monies) to use in a big BFG/40k campaign we were planning for winter.

GWs alternative suggestion:

F*@"! you and the horse you rode in on, how dare you like our products and want to patronise our business??!

My revised plan:

Spend monies with Mantic, Hawk Wargames, Corvus Belli and maybe Privateer Press instead.


GW Business (lack-of) Planning = EPIC FAIL!!!

 Lansirill wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I simply still think that GW just doesn't want anything that could stop even one dollar from flowing into WHFB and 40K. A fleet for BFG stops more Space Marines from being bought.

See, this doesn't make sense. I'm not saying it's not how GW think, but it doesn't make sense. Same with the theory put forth that new plastic kits are given the best rules because GW need to pay off the mold for the model.

Any sale, of anything, is money in GW's pocket. That Battleship might not be a box of Marines sold, or the latest awesome plastic kit, but it's the same amount of money (Battleships were fething expensive) in their pocket. It's money that would go to paying off any money spent on tooling the latest plastic molds. They don't take, for example, the money made from Trygons and put it in a "Trygon mold" bank account until there's enough to pay off that mold. Specialist games sales don't go into a "Specialist games" bank account, only for use on Specialist games. Or at least I hope they don't.

The 'new kits get better rules' idea does make some sense. If the old kits are still better than the new kits, people who already have the army won't buy anything new (unless they just want something to paint or want to try something out for fun.) Making the new stuff better encourages people to not use their old, already paid for models but instead to buy new, give-cash-to-GW models. Fliers are a good example of this line of thinking. Of course, there are plenty of new kits with absolutely lackluster rules that are contrary to it. I lean a bit more towards incompetence vs. malice, but they both have some evidence for them.

And then you have things like the Broadsides, where the version most people already had is now terrible, and the new version that requires the new kit is quite decent.

 Chimera_Calvin wrote:

GW Business (lack-of) Planning = EPIC FAIL!!!

I think we can all agree that that is an EPIC they'll be supporting well into the future. They have so many re-releases, it's hard to keep up.

I wouldn't rule out GW sending C&D letters to FFG for advertising products with GW license anymore. Fits GW's overall strategy to fight sales.

On a positive note, I think my 5k points of Imperial and Eldar BFG ships should get enough of a premium next month as to take a good chunk out of what I'll need to buy the new 40k Eldar stuff I want. :-P

But on a sad side, I really did like Epic: Armaggedon...the Eldar felt a little cheesy at points...but the game was great. Mordheim I STILL love and will continue to play with or without GW support...as will plenty of people I know.

I will probably keep one of my BFG fleets because the tactics involved in that game far overshadow 40k in my opinion...so it is very fun to play.