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Why do people SPAM? Because a choice is so good that multiple layers of it provide a powerful list. I know people tend to rage on SPAM (not saying the OP is in anyway) and not think about why people do it at all, but that is a strategic decision right there, so not equating the two is ignorant in my opinion.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I disagree. Through the most IMBA list you have at me! I'll deal. Throw 200 guardsmen at me! Throw 4 LRs. Throw cron air at me. Bring the av11 spam. Bring the psychic choir. Trhow all the MCs you want.

a Balanced list doesn't necessarily mean not using just one type of unit. It means bringing all the tools to deal with a variety of threats. Spam tends to not do that well. For instance Serpent spam is great...until a LR shows up. Venom spam is great until you hit a Mech Guard list. Cron air is great until you hit tau. Flying circus is awesome until you fight eldar (eldar rends and autowounds all day every day and puts out enough shots to down and annihilate things that even have iron arms).

Point is balanced list doesn't mean not taking just one type of model, it means having the ability to deal with a variety of threats, which is something spam lists usually lack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Point is no one really wins tournaments with those spam lists. They are too lopsided and someone is going to bring just enough of that something to give them a rough time. Just take it in stride that there are some spam lists. Play versus them a few times and try to win. If you are unable to with your current list, Modify it so you can handle all threats.

How in the heck would you be able to play armies like IG and SW (worst internal balances) without spamming???
It's not just about taking the same unit over and over again.. For some armies in 5th ed it was more about getting laughed at (rightfully so) for taking completely unreliable in-balanced units.. And thus having lack of options until they get redone

Spam is a form of redundancy. As a DE player, if I take one Raider, it dies. If I take four, it'll die anyway, but that's beside the point. If you take one flyer, it's shot down when it comes on. If you take two, much harder to deal with. Redundancy is a keyword in 40k.

Redundancy =/= spam. Thats covering your bases. I take 2 of everything that i take minus Hqs. Except rangers. Screw those guys...they just sit on an objective all game and pray to not die. They may have pinned someone once...but probably not.

Point is doubling up isn't bad. Filling 6 slots with the same vehicle is definitely spam and you are probably going to lose because of it. If you are only taking ranged tank threats, thats going to have issues versus some lists. If you are taking all infantry same thing.

An interesting note is that some dexs have no need for spam (ie eldar are a great example of this) while other dexs are almost built with spam in mind (SW, DA, IG) as they just don't have multiple cost effective options for certain roles (SW, IG) or certain army types only have 1 unit in the codex (DA).

Deldar are an interesting discussion point as they spam venoms/raiders like crazy yet often load them very differently. I find it funny that transport spam is even considered spam even if the contents are different for each one. How many dedicated transport options do eldar have, 1. Or IG, 1. If you go mechanized then how much choice do you really have? Just something to think about.

Well, as stated, some armies do need to spam since individual units either do not provide enough firepower to accomplish the role they are equipped for and are priced accordingly or they are so fragile they can be destroyed piece meal. Imperial Guard is such an army. I could bring a Leman Russ Vanquisher with pask for AT, a Hell Hound for anti infantry and a Demolisher for generalist work. The problem is that these units will become huge fire magnets.

If the Hellhound scares you, Dakka it down (Not hard given it's AV12). If the Vanquisher is giving your tanks a hard time, wreck it. The Demolisher is a no brainer. Now, if you brought multiples of each unit not only does it make it harder for the opponent to destroy your firepower but it also provides redundancy. An old saying is that if it's worth bringing in the Imperial Guard, it's worth bringing three since the first will die, the second will flub horribly and the third will have a chance at succeeding. Again, units are priced accordingly.

Now, that said I think the issue here is balance. You can't just spam Demolishers all day as much as S 10 AP 2 is good. You'd leave them open. Likewise, taking a ton of infantry will leave you open to anti Horde (Notably tau. They will destroy Horde Guard). I think the bests lists are TAC for these reasons.

Spam is a list building tactic, it is suppose to make part of your opponents army useless rather it be anti-infantry or anti-tank its supposed to make part of your opponents army useless.

Spamming the best unit in a codex is just spam.

I heard spam worked really well for just about every military force in the history of everything...Spam infantry, tanks, aircraft, bullets, guns, lions, tigers and bears.

It's a fact of life that a larger quantity of something good will generally yield more results than a smaller quantity in the proper context/application.

Therefore, taking 6 units of greyhunters might be considered spam by a few since you are taking as many as you can but it is a viable tactic as they are needed to claim objectives and they are very effective units in their own right.

Taking a lot of one thing is a tactic in and of itself though it is not always the best one...Spam must be balanced so you get just the right amount because it is high in sodium and too much sodium is bad =(.

OP, congrats, interesting question

Imho, there are several themes emerging.

a) taking multiple units is sometimes required (to ensure redundancy or in the role as transport capacity)

b) "spamming" - which could be defined as taking multiples of OP units tends to be different to redundancy - the objective here seems to be to get a list which the interweb *thinks* is an autowin. Spamming doesn't seem to be popular.

c) A mix up between strategy/tactics/spamming. Strategy is most easily thought of as an overall plan for winning. Horde, Max T6 have been specifically mentioned. Tactics are things in game which help you achieve that (eg specific uses or moves with a unit).

d) Flexibility seems to be the key point. The strategy-->tactics should enable you to select units which give you the ability to respond to different threats in different ways.

imho, if you follow a strategy-->tactics approach to building a list, then you may end up with multiples of OP units, but that isn't "spamming".

Spamming is when you don't think about why you have multiple units, you just take them because everyone says they are good.

For me, I don't take interweb multiples, because I can't afford that many wraiths/Night scythes and those lists I personally find boring to play.

My strategy is built around disruption, so I tend to have a variety of units that hit T2 (some T1) with support for the initial wave following. Given that my plan is basically to stop the opponent executing theirs and winning in the subsequent confusion - netlists wouldn't work that well - they make target priority too easy for the opponent.

Generally, I'll have wraith unit, a scarab unit with Spyders, a Deathmark squad and a couple of AB. Then I fill out with a variety of other things.

I don't think that Necrons need to "Spam" wraiths or NS to be competitive. These armies are normally quite one dimensional and counter tactics are well known. But they are hard to kill unless you have the counter - which is why many players take them.

qballony wrote:
a Balanced list doesn't necessarily mean not using just one type of unit. It means bringing all the tools to deal with a variety of threats. Spam tends to not do that well. For instance Serpent spam is great...until a LR shows up. Venom spam is great until you hit a Mech Guard list. Cron air is great until you hit tau. Flying circus is awesome until you fight eldar (eldar rends and autowounds all day every day and puts out enough shots to down and annihilate things that even have iron arms).

I think you greatly misunderstand what a SPAM list is. Serpent SPAM deals with Land Raiders fine with Fire Dragons. Venom SPAM deals with mech guard fine with Blasters and or Ravagers. Cron Air deals fine with Tau just as. Flying Circus can also deal with Eldar on its own just fine using terrain to its advantage. You are acting like a SPAM list is some sort of illegal amalgamation of several of just one unit, but that's not the case.

Serpent and Venom spam having to use proper units to counter specific units or builds in conjunction with the actual vehicle sounds like combined arms.

There's one problem with spamming units.

It's how you invalidate your army.

In 3rd, the eldar got the craftworld codex - I went biel-tan and took 4 squads of Dark Reapers. Life was fun - short due to unit sizes, but fun nonetheless. 4th ed eldar codex stopped that completely and all of a sudden I had nothing much in the way of troops. I had to spend a serious amount of cash to get my army to standard again.

If you spam one thing because its the best unit in your codex, all your eggs are in one basket. If your rules change, your army gets massively gimped.

Wave Serpent spam is seen as a viable build at the moment. IF GW decide in their next codex that the serpent shield was too good and nerf it, its translates into your whole army.

Future proofing is the way forwards

 Daba wrote:
Serpent and Venom spam having to use proper units to counter specific units or builds in conjunction with the actual vehicle sounds like combined arms.

Your point being? A SPAM list is a list that min/maxes certain units to their greatest effect; it doesn't mean that the list has only that unit or that that particular unit is there to achieve everything. I think you are stretching here to make a point, the problem is with the way some people are proposing a SPAM list should work is not possible as you cannot take an army of all one unit.

6 Venoms is considered Venom SPAM. Have you considered the other 1500pts or so, or the units taken to get the Venoms in the first place? Taking an intentionally bland outlook on SPAM doesn't make a point.

PredaKhaine wrote:
If you spam one thing because its the best unit in your codex, all your eggs are in one basket.

Actually SPAM is the exact opposite to having all of your eggs in one basket, it's about maximizing the affect of your greatest asset by multiplying its efficiency through having several of that unit.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
If you spam one thing because its the best unit in your codex, all your eggs are in one basket.

Actually SPAM is the exact opposite to having all of your eggs in one basket, it's about maximizing the affect of your greatest asset by multiplying its efficiency through having several of that unit.

Thats not what I'm saying...

If you spam one thing a lot, then GW changes the rules through an FAQ or a new codex - it hurts you in your wallet becuase you have to change your suddenly rubbish/illegal army.
I didn't speak about rules at all, just from a monetary perspective.

It was a nice turn of phrase but its not really relevant to my post...

SPAM is fine.

Becomes a bit of a game of "Rock, Paper, Scissors".

It only gets bad when that unit you maxed out is great for killing ANYTHING. That is when the comments of OP and TFG start cropping up.

It is a great way for a new guy to learn that unit cold.

Yes, with GW you would play into their hands so that when the next revision kicks in they may gimp your favorite combo.

As long as myself or my opponent do not consistently table people, it is still a good game.

Strategy: is using combined tactics, methods, units effectively together to achieve the desired objective.

Tactics: is to determine the best approach to work toward the objective as conditions change.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Your point being? A SPAM list is a list that min/maxes certain units to their greatest effect; it doesn't mean that the list has only that unit or that that particular unit is there to achieve everything. I think you are stretching here to make a point, the problem is with the way some people are proposing a SPAM list should work is not possible as you cannot take an army of all one unit.

6 Venoms is considered Venom SPAM. Have you considered the other 1500pts or so, or the units taken to get the Venoms in the first place? Taking an intentionally bland outlook on SPAM doesn't make a point.

Venoms are a dedicated transport, and not really an expensive one either.

To spam them, you may well be taking 5 man min-sized Warrior or Wych squads who can't do much on their own.

But does it still count as spam if you are taking Venoms but with specialised Trueborn with Blasters (who you may be spamming as well, but it's not Venom only spam) who work well with it and are an effective unit (unlike 5 naked warriors).

6 Venoms could be just the specialised transport wing of an army, with Blasterborn, Haywire AV Wyches (who the Venom gives an extra 6" to as an assault vehicle), or Incubi. As well as that, it fits into the concept of the fast, raiding Dark Eldar army.

The same goes for Serpents. Min-maxing, you would take 5 man Avenger squads, but is it still spam when you're taking full Avenger squads, decent Dragon squads (who were never big anyway) and other such units? The Wave Serpent is the only dedicated transport in the list; is it spamming when using multiple Wave Serpents is the only way to make a mechanised army? When you're taking the Fire Dragons, you're already not min-maxing for Wave Serpents as 5 man Avengers are much cheaper, and when you fill those up 5-woman Banshees are the next best.

I use 2 Scythes, 2 Annis and no Wraiths, so 90% of the internet will tell me im wrong

I think a lot of the people that think spamming units is not valid have a different (and IMO, flawed) understanding of what spamming entails.

Done properly, spamming is not taking one unit/vehicle/weapon/etc. with a very narrow application and putting as many as possible into your list - that's gimping yourself. One of the examples listed earlier that falls into this category would be Lascannon spam - which is a terrible idea - you're paying a lot of points to fill your list with something that's only efficient against one or two types of units. In that scenario spamming has actively weakened your list because if you go up against any opponent that hasn't devoted a hugely significant amount of their points into Armor or MCs you've wasted points by filling your list with ineffective weapons.

The proper (and IME - extremely effective) way to spam is to take a model/unit that has a very narrow answer and max out on them or to take a type of model/unit and completely exclude it from your list in favor of other types of models/units. Doing this will "turn off" a significant portion of your opponent's TAC list while flooding other portions with too many targets so they can't keep up.

One example of the former would be Riptide spam - a MC with high toughness, a lot of wounds, and a 2+,5++. Most TAC lists don't take a whole lot of ways to reliably put one of these down in a turn, so it's fair to say that it has a narrow answer. At the same time, it does not have a narrow application - it's good against infantry (heavy and light), light tanks, can be upgraded to deal with Infiltrators and Flyers, and, in a pinch, can take out heavy tanks. It's a good model and maxing out on Riptides is a legitimate strategy that has no real downside besides cost (which isn't terrible - a Riptide can be reasonably expected to take its points+ in a game).

Waveserpent spam fits into the same category.

An example of the latter is an armored, Flyer, or horde list. Against a full Armored Company, any weapon that isn't at least S6-7 is pretty much a waste of points, against Flyers any weapon that doesn't have skyfire is going to be much less effective, and against a Horde list all those high strength weapons cost more and are less effective than the alternatives. All those examples "turn off" or at least hinders a portion of your opponent's list which makes it less effective, but at the same time, the spam list doesn't have to sacrifice its ability to TAC.

Basically, people who think spamming units sucks don't seem to really understand the concept. It's not building an army that can only deal with one type of threat, it's building an army that only has one type of answer while, at the same time, is able to answer any type of threat. The guy who described his army as a bug horde is a perfect example of a spam list that can TAC – he said his list can deal with most anything, but any list that isn’t specifically tailored to take out a bunch of infantry is facing a real uphill battle.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd agree with spam not being tactics; it's strategy. Every additional LRBT, for example, is added stress on your opponent's anti-tank units to perform, while largely negating some other part of his or her list. If I only have one Vehicle it's going to eat all of my enemy's anti-tank fire turn 1 and explode.

This. Imagine that your 40k game is part of a larger conflict. If you're a witty general, you're going to allocate your forces to areas where they excel. Making good army lists, in this example, is really analogous to allocating your forces correctly. Redundancy allows you to easily compensate for losses. If you've only got one thing in your army that can handle each type of threat, then you're screwed if your opponent overloads your ability to deal with that threat or neutralizes that unit early. If I'm playing a mechanized army, I'm going to try to kill all of my opponent's anti-tank early. If I'm playing a flier-heavy army, I'm going to try to kill all of my opponents AA assets as early as possible. But the initial overload comes from the list building process.

Spam is not a tactic, but it is a strategy. And how you use your spam absolutely is tactics.

For example, the Tzeentch flying circus is probably the most tactically rewarding Army I've played (and Fateweaver plus Princes is FMC spam). First you have to balance the psychic phase (both pre game, where you tailor to your opponent) and at the beginning of every turn (where you cast your Grimoire/powers in order of importance, to maximize the power of FW reroll). Then you have the speed and movement (ie maneuver, the most important part of tactics) to dictate where the fight takes place and the ability to maximize cover (LOS blocking) and concealment (cover saves) to increase your survivability. Thus, a spam Army utilizing tactics (both in 40k and in a real sense). The same holds true for plenty of other spam Armies.

Spam is just a choice of specialization vs generalization.
When you specialize, you're gambling that what you chose to take a lot of will both wreck face, and survive against what your opponent brings.
When you Generalize, you're going to have a portion of your army very vulnerable to specialists, and a portion fairly safe. You're also going to have all the tools to deal with another generalist list, as will your opponent. In a generalist vs generalist match, it's coming down to who's better at apply the right force to the right target, and of course, rolling better.

In tournaments, I think we're seeing generalists do better.
If you go flying circus, and get paired off against the DA Flak Spam, you're done. Massacred once and you are out of the standings. It doesn't matter that the Flak guy will never win the tournament, all it matters is that he was the rock to your scissors and successfully played spoiler.

-Matt

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
I was just wondering, is there actually tactics when it comes to 40K. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but is there anything other than SPAM lists.

Yes, there are tactics to this game.
* Where do you deploy? What do you keep in reserve?
* What objectives will you go for? What are your plans to reach them?
* What targets do you prioritize to shoot at? What is the biggest threat vs. easy KP
* If your army is an assault army, what is your plan to get into assault. (Hint : Derka Derka does not always work)
* How can you utilize your movement to limit your opponents shooting? How can you use movement to maximize your own?
* How can you utilize your movement to deny enemy objectives?
* How do you plan on getting linebreaker.

There are also general questions you should have plans for
* How do you plan on dealing with fast moving assault armies?
* How do you plan on dealing with heavy shooting armies?
* How you do plan on dealing with flyers?

List building should not be confused with tactics.

surely tactics begin with list building, since the list will dictate the tactics that will be used in the game. I can decide my tactics will be to utilize stand and shoot units, but if my entire list is assault marines then my tactics are not commensurate with the list I chose. Spamming units is no less tactical then any other tactic that works. Tell Stalin that spamming units is not a sound tactic. That was how they were able to defeat the Germans. Russia was able to give up territory (using scorched earth policies) and retreat back into their vast motherland to buy time for more soldier and war material to make its way to the front lines. The Russians even pressed large numbers of troops into battle without a weapon on the principle that there would be plenty of dead to pick a weapon off of. Russian Commissars even counted the number of german machine guns on an opposing front, multiplied the rate of fire by the time it would take for their men to cross the territory in between and added a few thousand men to the final total to make sure that the Germans would be overwhelmed and to guarantee that some Russian troops would get through. Saying that spamming is not a tactic is like saying that obliterating your eneimes with drone strikes is not a tactic. If a specific type of war works, then it is tactical.

Obviously we are talking about a game here, and while spamming units may not be the most fun army to field or play against it in no way devalues its efficiency as a viable tactic.
Does it make you a cheap bastard for bringing 6 vendettas ? Maybe, since this is opinion based. Does it make you cheap? maybe.... The point is that some codecies have no choice but to spam certain units if they want to be viable on the table top. Some codecies are just loaded with fluff units that are effectively useless.

This discussion is really more of an argument of fluffy fun players versus I want to win as much as I can players

When I play a game against demons and they bring 4 FMC is it spammy? Yes. Is it a little cheap ? yes.... is it any less of a viable tactic than spamming Land Raiders or Night Scythes, or markerlights? No. Each player has the ability to choose what units they want to spend their money on and bring onto the table top.

Is it a shame that the game has devoloved into pay to win ? yes, but only if you are playing against someone who will deliberatly field units that they know you cannot deal with. But then again why would you bring units that you know your opponent can easily destroy?

Yes, there are tactics to this game.
* Where do you deploy? What do you keep in reserve?
* What objectives will you go for? What are your plans to reach them?
* What targets do you prioritize to shoot at? What is the biggest threat vs. easy KP
* If your army is an assault army, what is your plan to get into assault. (Hint : Derka Derka does not always work)
* How can you utilize your movement to limit your opponents shooting? How can you use movement to maximize your own?
* How can you utilize your movement to deny enemy objectives?
* How do you plan on getting linebreaker.

There are also general questions you should have plans for
* How do you plan on dealing with fast moving assault armies?
* How do you plan on dealing with heavy shooting armies?
* How you do plan on dealing with flyers?

List building should not be confused with tactics.

This is a great post.

To answer the OP, the reason people talk about list building the majority of the time is that it is the easiest way to help others over forums.

The most important parts of 40k are deployment, movement, target priority, and end game. The issue that often arises is that it is very difficult to discuss these things in a vacuum. The best way to gain tactical knowledge is by playing against a variety of good players. The second best way is to check out the battle reports of good players (especially when they talk about what worked and what didn't).

When people have issues and come to the forums, the quickest way to help them is by examining their list. That is why you see talk of spamming the undercosted and overly efficient units so much.

 redthirst wrote:
I consider spamming units to be a legitimate strategy.

It just makes good sense: if your opponent's list is (hypothetically) 33% AT, 33% AA, and 33% AI then taking nothing but Tanks will effectively nullify 2/3 of their army.

That's a pretty extreme example, but it serves to illustrate why spamming units works.

I disagree with the spamming being knocking down 2/3 of a list. there is units that have multiple purposes that make this invalid. I bring 6 Leman Russ battle tanks there is anti infantry and anti tank. I dare you to spam against that. Most aren't going to put 1/3 into anti air. Most air units will go down with lost of shots. I turn 3 punishes guns tilt them up and tear into them. and lower it and blow you infantry apart. Vendettas are anti-tank and anti flyer. The list goes on and on. Spamming is a strategy but not a very good one. The Russians did it and it worked players do it. they work. If your list is good enough and your strategy you can easily beat spam list. Once you get rid of the spam unit its practical game over.

There has been a lot of great information in this thread. These are some of my favorites.

qballony wrote:
Redundancy =/= spam.

anonymou5 wrote:
Spam is not a tactic, but it is a strategy. And how you use your spam absolutely is tactics.

 JGrand wrote:
[When people have issues and come to the forums, the quickest way to help them is by examining their list. That is why you see talk of spamming the undercosted and overly efficient units so much.

There is another quote I would like to add.

Major Motoko Kusanagi: It's simple: Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness.

ravengatorfan wrote:

 redthirst wrote:
I consider spamming units to be a legitimate strategy.

It just makes good sense: if your opponent's list is (hypothetically) 33% AT, 33% AA, and 33% AI then taking nothing but Tanks will effectively nullify 2/3 of their army.

That's a pretty extreme example, but it serves to illustrate why spamming units works.

I disagree with the spamming being knocking down 2/3 of a list. there is units that have multiple purposes that make this invalid. I bring 6 Leman Russ battle tanks there is anti infantry and anti tank. I dare you to spam against that. Most aren't going to put 1/3 into anti air. Most air units will go down with lost of shots. I turn 3 punishes guns tilt them up and tear into them. and lower it and blow you infantry apart. Vendettas are anti-tank and anti flyer. The list goes on and on. Spamming is a strategy but not a very good one. The Russians did it and it worked players do it. they work. If your list is good enough and your strategy you can easily beat spam list. Once you get rid of the spam unit its practical game over.

It would be nice if I didn't have to keep explaining that my extreme example used to illustrate a point was not me describing a literal real-world list...

Also, I like how you say spamming is bad because it can't beat your LRBT spam army.

And yeah, that's a form of spam: you take one unit/model with a narrow range of vulnerabilities that can optimally play multiple roles and then you spam the hell out of it - like when you play 6 LRBTs.

Actually, 6 LRMBTs is a very flexible HS selection.

And if they are all specialised, which they probably are, its not spam because they aren't the same unit