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Swarmlord? He's no t a Daemon IIRC? Niether is Khorne AoBF, or Kharn, or Abaddon.

There are all the ones I listed as well to be fair:

Dark Eldar Archons
Mephiston
Vulkan
Celestine

These are all played alot in our group Also as I read it the EC is supposed to be good in CC but he is not a named unique legendary character but rather the best a Company or a Crusade have to offer - so really good but not the best

 Deadshot wrote:
Kharn, or Abaddon.

I don't think an Emperors Champion should be good enough to take down either of those going by the fluff?

No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

 Deadshot wrote:
No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

What notion? I mentioned them as examples ...

If anyone can take out The Despoiler in CC deserves to have the title of Manliest Man in the Galaxy of Man.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Kharn, or Abaddon.

I don't think an Emperors Champion should be good enough to take down either of those going by the fluff?

Sigismund took down Khârn. But no, fluff-wise Khârn should probably kill an "average" Emperor's Champion, but the issue now is that with 2 wounds, no Eternal Warrior and having to go into Hail Mary mode to kill MEQ it's just too unreliable. He lost much of his MEQ-stomping ability to become slightly better, turning a decent MEQ-stomper and shoddy Character-fighter into a semi-shoddy MEQ-stomper and a semi-shoddy Character-fighter. He just isn't that good at either of them.

Kangodo wrote:

With WS6, I5, and 4 attacks on S4, AP2 you will probably be better at challenges than before.

Lost two strength, gained AP2, otherwise same as before. Better in challenges against 2+ armour? Sure. Is he going to accomplish anything against stuff with 2+ armour that can actually fight back? Unless you luck out and roll a 6 to wound (and get past ++ saves), nope.

Kangodo wrote:
Mr Morden, Mephiston is AP3.
All of my BA-characters are either AP3 or Unwieldy, even if I pay 275 points for them.

You know, I'd take you a lot more seriously if you were right. Tycho ignores armour saves with all his attacks at initiative. He's 35 points more than the Emperor's Champion, can't hit at S6 or cause Instant Death, but comes with a Combi-Melta, an extra Wound and Rites of Battle. When was the last time you saw anyone take Tycho because of his awesome CC prowess?

Or, put it this way: for 20 points more than the Emperor's Champion, you could get Khârn.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

What notion? I mentioned them as examples ...

Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex...

Looking at the Chapter Tactics, if the are correct what do you guys think is the best once to represent Red Scorpions, or is it likley forge world will release a FAQ after the new codex is released?

I thinking Ultramarines due to their flexibility and because I use Sicarius as my Default HQ choice, though the Imperial Fists tactics look alright as well.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Lost two strength, gained AP2, otherwise same as before. Better in challenges against 2+ armour? Sure. Is he going to accomplish anything against stuff with 2+ armour that can actually fight back? Unless you luck out and roll a 6 to wound (and get past ++ saves), nope.

So you want him to be like the old Emperor's Champion?
Or is this just yet another "my unit isn't extremely strong on tournaments"-complaint?

You know, I'd take you a lot more seriously if you were right. Tycho ignores armour saves with all his attacks at initiative. He's 35 points more than the Emperor's Champion, can't hit at S6 or cause Instant Death, but comes with a Combi-Melta, an extra Wound and Rites of Battle. When was the last time you saw anyone take Tycho because of his awesome CC prowess?

I'm still right. Tycho doesn't even have an AP-value.
Btw, last time I took him into CC was 6 weeks ago.

Maybe you are approaching the Emperor's Champion from a wrong angle?

I'm pretty sure that FW will FAQ all the space marine characters... At least I am hoping so, it will be interesting to see what they do with Tyboros The Red Wake. At least Red Scorpions have an established parent legion. Not sure which one off hand. Check IA 6 or IA 9 for RS fluff. overall I am looking forward to the new codex.

IH chapter tactic looks like the go to option of making a truly badass chapter master if you also take into acount relics.

Example

Biker Chapter Master
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
6___5_4_5_4_5_4_10_2+/3++
Biked/ Thunder Hammer/ artificer armour/ storm shield/ relics
Eternal warrior
It will not die
Feel no pain

I'd hate to come up against that on the table top

Johnson101 wrote:
Looking at the Chapter Tactics, if the are correct what do you guys think is the best once to represent Red Scorpions, or is it likley forge world will release a FAQ after the new codex is released?

I thinking Ultramarines due to their flexibility and because I use Sicarius as my Default HQ choice, though the Imperial Fists tactics look alright as well.

With their near fantatical following of the Codex Astartes, I'd use Ultramarines.

I'm a bit peeved that we're going to have to mechanically ally ourselves to one primogenitor. I much preferred it when my Eternity Wardens did not have a set backstory, but now I have to write them one. On the plus side, at least the Ultramarines chapter trait wasnt as good as previously thought, having 1 each of the three markers you can cash in during a game is a very interesting mechanic (and presumably you can't use two in one turn).

Isean wrote:I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

Yeah, Finecast Sword Brethren are going to be my BT honour guard. Just gotta convert the Chainsword into something else, I guess. Magnets for the win. Though wrist magnets tend not to be all that... secure.

DogofWar1 wrote:
30 pts on non-captain characters who don't start with a 4++, which is why I said it'd be a bit steep for captains and chapter masters, who do start with that 4++.

Only for Space Wolves. C:SM Vanguard 15 points, Black Templars 15 points regardless of what model including HQs, 10 points for DA Veterans... I can't recall any HQs - outside of SW&BT - that can get it but don't have an invul save already.

Chapter Master + Bike (T5, fast) + Artificer armor (2+) + Relic (3++, EW) + Powerfist = Kills EVERYTHING.

Yup, that'd be frickin' sweet.

Mr Morden wrote:I couldn't say if he was worth the points - he can both dish and out and take it from my experience with AP2 and Armour 2 characters. Also not sure about the SC's wiping the floor before he hits - many of the fast ones have difficulty with Armour 2+, Dark Eldar Archons do unless they have a Power Axe and so are not faster, I think Mephiston is only AP3? Celestine is AP3, Vulkan is AP3 (or was?), Llyeth ignores his armour but only wounds on a 5+. In return he ignores their non ++ saves, which is insta kill on some of them or on a 6+ if not normally?

An Archon will most likely use a Huskblade to attack at I7 S3 AP2 and Instant Death. Add that Shadow or Clone Field or whatever the hell it is that reduces hits and the EC can't even hit him given his low amount of attacks. Lelith indeed only wounds on 5+ but has a billion attacks. Meph, Celestine and Vulkan for example do only have AP3, but most generic HQs tend to take AP2 in my experience. Meph would possibly lose, but Vulkan would probably end up being a tarpit duel. Celestine dies, only to rise again and go pester someone else.

So yes, while he may have some success against non-AP2 SCs, against most CC-kitted generic characters he'll lose.

I'm interested in seeing how grav weapons' anti-vehicle rule is worded. It's kinda big deal for Imperial Fists whether it counts as armour penetration roll and thus is affected by their tank-hunter ability.

 tvih wrote:

Isean wrote:I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

Yeah, Finecast Sword Brethren are going to be my BT honour guard. Just gotta convert the Chainsword into something else, I guess. Magnets for the win. Though wrist magnets tend not to be all that... secure.

I'd be more inclined to just use regular Marines and Templar them up using the BT sprue. Plenty of Power Weapons and bits on that to make them look amazing.

 Deadshot wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

What notion? I mentioned them as examples ...

Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex...

For someone who the community gave a pretty easy pass on the juvenile SC whine-fest, you're doing an aweful lot of calling out on your own. Remind me of my 14 yo students who argue wrong points until they're blue and then can't handle it when someone proves them wrong in one sentence. Ato isn't saying there aren't other at Init AP2 characters, he's saying those are the ones you'll see (as in what is taken in the current meta). Read what you're quoting.

I am thrilled to be able to run my Blood Angels as Raven Guard allied with White Scars. Hopefully Codex BA comes next year.. In the meantime, I'll get good use from Korvydae and Khan. I dig.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'm a bit peeved that we're going to have to mechanically ally ourselves to one primogenitor. I much preferred it when my Eternity Wardens did not have a set backstory, but now I have to write them one. On the plus side, at least the Ultramarines chapter trait wasnt as good as previously thought, having 1 each of the three markers you can cash in during a game is a very interesting mechanic (and presumably you can't use two in one turn).

Actualy you could just pick a diffrent Chapter Tactic each gamem it looks like only the BT have to realy make thier choice from ground zero.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm interested in seeing how grav weapons' anti-vehicle rule is worded. It's kinda big deal for Imperial Fists whether it counts as armour penetration roll and thus is affected by their tank-hunter ability.

I really doubt it, I'm pretty sure Haywire isn't an armour penetration roll and that's the closest analogue we've got.

I'm not too fussed about it, the grav guns will be sparse enough that it won't matter much either way, and the Centurions have re-rolls by default due to grav amps.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'm a bit peeved that we're going to have to mechanically ally ourselves to one primogenitor. I much preferred it when my Eternity Wardens did not have a set backstory, but now I have to write them one. On the plus side, at least the Ultramarines chapter trait wasnt as good as previously thought, having 1 each of the three markers you can cash in during a game is a very interesting mechanic (and presumably you can't use two in one turn).

Actualy you could just pick a diffrent Chapter Tactic each gamem it looks like only the BT have to realy make thier choice from ground zero.

Strictly speaking yes, but to build a decent list you will work around your Chapter Tactics. Most of them effect specific units more so than others, and so those lists' choices will often be dictated by their Chapter Tactics.

Also, White Scars may or may not having to decide in advance, as Khan can make all Bikes Troops but can't be taken under other CTs.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'm a bit peeved that we're going to have to mechanically ally ourselves to one primogenitor. I much preferred it when my Eternity Wardens did not have a set backstory, but now I have to write them one. On the plus side, at least the Ultramarines chapter trait wasnt as good as previously thought, having 1 each of the three markers you can cash in during a game is a very interesting mechanic (and presumably you can't use two in one turn).

Actualy you could just pick a diffrent Chapter Tactic each gamem it looks like only the BT have to realy make thier choice from ground zero.

Strictly speaking yes, but to build a decent list you will work around your Chapter Tactics. Most of them effect specific units more so than others, and so those lists' choices will often be dictated by their Chapter Tactics.

Also, White Scars may or may not having to decide in advance, as Khan can make all Bikes Troops but can't be taken under other CTs.

Ok, BT & WS, but still there is alot of flexability there.
My army cound best be described as a Shrike/Kantor list, but I could do it as Raven Guard, Crimson Fist or as a Allied list with out changing a single model, I am just going to have to repaint 2 Tactical Squads and 2 Assualt Squads.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

What notion? I mentioned them as examples ...

Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex...

For someone who the community gave a pretty easy pass on the juvenile SC whine-fest, you're doing an aweful lot of calling out on your own. Remind me of my 14 yo students who argue wrong points until they're blue and then can't handle it when someone proves them wrong in one sentence. Ato isn't saying there aren't other at Init AP2 characters, he's saying those are the ones you'll see (as in what is taken in the current meta). Read what you're quoting.

Not cool on the roundabout insults but I'll let it go to avoid arguements. I was simply confused about his statement that you won't see any AP2 normal Int characters outside the Daemons. The bit I quoted mentioned nothing of meta, but in any case its been clarified now.No need to be snippy.

Ato, apolgies for misinterpretation

Also, I'm.not "calling out" I'm engaging in discussion. Just because I whinged earlier about 2 years of work, time and effort, not to mention money, was for nought, doesn't mean I'm not allowed to continue discussion.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I'm not too fussed about it, the grav guns will be sparse enough that it won't matter much either way, and the Centurions have re-rolls by default due to grav amps.

But grav amps are for to wound rolls only, right?

 Crimson wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I'm not too fussed about it, the grav guns will be sparse enough that it won't matter much either way, and the Centurions have re-rolls by default due to grav amps.

But grav amps are for to wound rolls only, right?

Well I was looking at the Grav Pistol is avalible to any who can take a "Special Pistol". This could put two in the hands of any Character, inluding Sarge.
That and the Combi-Grav.
I expext to see alot for the next 3-6 months

Does anyone else think that Captain's Combi-Grav gun looks slighly Necron is appearance?

Yeah you are right it does look very Necron like.

A gift from the Necron-Blood Angels alliance?

 Crimson wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I'm not too fussed about it, the grav guns will be sparse enough that it won't matter much either way, and the Centurions have re-rolls by default due to grav amps.

But grav amps are for to wound rolls only, right?

Also for vehicle pounding, according to 40k Radio. In their test game 3 Centurions wrecked a Land Raider turn 1.

I wonder how many points grav pistols are going to be. IIRC from earlier in this thread, grav weapons are concusive. This would pair nicely with power fists/axes and other I1 weapons. That would be a nice edge over plasma.