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 pretre wrote:
A big solid scoring 20 girl blob is now a great unit. Being fearless with a priest and being able to reroll saves in h2h makes for a really good unit.

Hmm. Thinking about this one.

Probably only worth taking one of those though considering the expense....... Would be a really annoying unit to shift from an ADL though

Looks like we are now an alpha strike army (with the added stress of getting into position for the strike). Priests look amazing but, without a reliable delivery system, I think their potential is somewhat limited to counter charge threats QQ

Gonna buy the codex now <3

Seems to me that very little was improved, while many things were nerfed. Retributors are out, I mean AoF only once and you get Rending IF you roll 6s. No inferno bolts for Immolators, and they don't have better armor, so they will die fast. More expensive Rhinos? Celestine is more, but only gets up once.

Priests and HQ seem better, but not troops.

 pretre wrote:
Inferno Pistols are bad. Just take hand flamers

Maybe, I used to love the inferno pistols, never tried the hand flamers.

 pretre wrote:
Get specials/heavies for the 5 sisters
You need more rides. Girls out in the open are dead girls. Especially the 5 girl squad.

The five-girl-squad is the “Leave behind a wall next to an objective and completely forget about” unit. They just have a SSV to make it less likely they flee. At my FLGS, in tournament, every mission involves two objective, which are taken from Kill points, Relic, the 1d3+3 objectives and the 1 objective for each player. So it's very frequent I get to place at least one objective, which I can leave in some place where it will be hard for my opponent to draw a line of sight.

 pretre wrote:
Drop the combis on the Doms for more points. SSV is >; Combi. Heck Simulacrum > Combi

Since Immolator means no shooting from inside the vehicle, I don't expect my dominion to survive one more turn. So Simulacrum is useless. And I took an SSV for the melta, but it seems very useless for the flamers, which don't need the AoF, so they have no use for the extra Ld.

 pretre wrote:
Drop the Rets and take another Exorcist.

No model for that . Else I would either do that, or try the 4 rending heavy flamer squad just for fun !

Wwbushidow wrote:
Seems to me that very little was improved, while many things were nerfed. Retributors are out, I mean AoF only once and you get Rending IF you roll 6s. No inferno bolts for Immolators, and they don't have better armor, so they will die fast. More expensive Rhinos? Celestine is more, but only gets up once.

Priests and HQ seem better, but not troops.

Read it again. Almost everything got better.

the 4 heavy flamer Ret squad is tempting isn't it. There's going to be so much melta on the field that the H.flamer squad may be much better than even an exorcist.

Read the codex. Definitely a huge points improvement all around, cant wait to see more sisters on the battlefield.

Is Condemer bolt gun a one per army or can you take multiples?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I can take a 20 Sister unit, put 5 priests in it and 2 HQs.

Priests:
Ecclesiarchy Relic: Litanies of Faith: Autopass AoF and Hymn
Zealot gives unit Fearless and Hatred
The Emperor Protects (reroll armour and inv).
The Righteousness of the Emperor (reroll To Wound)
Any that are left do The Emperor's Strength (3 S3 Ap2 attacks (4 on charge or Smash for 2 S6 Ap2 attacks)

Uriah Jacobus:
If Warlord Indomitable Belief: Shield of Faith 5+
The Emperor's Strength for 4 S3 Ap2 attacks (or 5 on charge or 2 S6 Ap2 attacks, 3 on charge)
Banner gives Counter-attack

Saint Celestine:
If Warlord Beacon of Faith: 12" AoF and Hymns on Ld10
Hit and Run

So I could have a unit that has:
Fearless
Hatred
Counter Attack
Hit and Run
Reroll armour and Inv saves
Reroll to wound
3+ 5++(If Uriah Warlord) on all Battle Sisters
Auto passes all AoF or Hymn tests with a Priest that has Litanies of Faith.

 pretre wrote:
Read it again. Almost everything got better.

Celestine got worse, Jacobus got worse, Conclave got worse (except for arcoflagellants, that got way better), rhinos got worse (well, the same but more expensive), heavy bolter retributor got worse, flamers dominions got worse, seraphim got worse (less options, you need to pay extra if you want to get a veteran, no more reroll the act of faith), …


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, multiple priest is an awesome idea for a conclave. Rerolling those 3++ and rerolling both to hit and to wound with those sweet DCA !
(Except we can't do anything in CC against any unit/MC with a 2+ save now )

Finally downloading my copy. I'm going to sit down and do a full review on it a bit later.

I didn't noticed first time, but if you don't take the paying upgrade, Seraphim don't get a leader. Which means Celestine has to either accept the challenge from that nasty character with a 2+ save which she can't harm in any way, and get crushed, or just not do anything at all.
Sad !

What's the problem here? Just suck it up and pay the 10 points. You've already got 20 in the bank from your Hand Flamers getting cheaper.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Read it again. Almost everything got better.

Celestine got worse

She's still verrrrrry good, just need to be more careful

Jacobus got worse

not sure about this as I didn't use him under the last codex update

Conclave got worse (except for arcoflagellants, that got way better)

Not really..... They still lack an effective delivery system, but we had that under the old rules :S They still make a fine backfield unit to camp on an objective

rhinos got worse (well, the same but more expensive)

Agreed..... can't see any reason for this excepting that we can now use immo's for our smaller BSS squads

heavy bolter retributor got worse

Yeah.... but they filled a niche role anyway.... and HF celestians kinda make up for this

flamers dominions got worse

Just take melta doms instead? throw in a flamer if you like but the ability to ignore cover on melta shots is a massive perk

seraphim got worse (less options, you need to pay extra if you want to get a veteran, no more reroll the act of faith), …

These girls now fill an entirely different role in the army..... having 'shred' with their flamers means they take over crowd control duties from the dominions (freeing them up to take out armoured targets)

There's gonna be a real sea change in how the army plays: Looks like we can put out one of the best alpha strikes in the game but, it's going to require alot of tactical thinking to pull it off. Veteran SoB players are going to be used to that though. As much as i'm pleased to get some new rules and a bit more variety I think this codex is going to put off new players

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
I take it that when using War Hymns you use the Priests LD and not the highest in the unit if he is part of one?

The Emperors Strength also makes all the priests attacks Ap2, if you Smash you get 2 S6 Ap2 attacks (2A base, +1 for 2CCW so he always has 2 Smash attacks minimum with standard loudout). Yet here we have to pay 30pts for an Eviscerator to basically get the same thing?

Is it just me or are Hymns better than AoF?

I don't think so. You would just follow the normal rules for Leadership Test:

pg 7

At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test. This usually represents them drawing upon their courage to face disheartening circumstances.
To take a Leadership test, use the following procedure:
Roll 2D6 and compare the result to the models leadership.
If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership value, then the test has been passed.
If the result is greater than the models Leadership value, a suitably dire consequence will occur, as detailed in the rule that called for the test.
If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.

Amerikon wrote:Just suck it up and pay the 10 points. You've already got 20 in the bank from your Hand Flamers getting cheaper.

Nope. I use Inferno pistols, it's 0 points actually.

J.Black wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
She's still verrrrrry good, just need to be more careful

She's way worse. Plain fact.

J.Black wrote:

Jacobus got worse

not sure about this as I didn't use him under the last codex update

I've read through it, and am still digesting it. My initial verdict?

The Good: Priests, Command Squads, Multimelta Immolators, and Battle Sister Squads seem to be the big winners here. Celestine seems to be an appropriate price for what you get, and still strikes me as a solid choice. Seraphim and Exorcists are pretty similar to their previous incarnation, and Dominions are still good, particularly against MCs that can get good cover saves. Faith requires a leadership test, which makes it a bit more reliable than before. Jacobius and some of the Relics have potential. The Warlord Trait Table seems balanced and appropriate, though on my first readthrough I misread 'Beacon of Faith' as 'Bacon of Faith', and I'd much prefer the latter to the former. Heavy Flamer Retributors might be the new Heavy Bolter Retributors.

The Bad: Canonesses, Celestians, Battle Conclaves, Flamer Immolators, and Penitent Engines all seem to come up a bit short. Most of them are really missed opportunities, moreso that decidedly bad units. Faith is probably, in the long run, a bit worse. Every unit can only use Faith once (or twice) a battle, but, realistically, in the previous codex few units would ever use their faith more than twice a game anyway. Eviscerators should be cheaper- it's only a chainfist on an S3 model, there's no need for it to be 30 points!

The Ugly: Repentia lost FnP and are going to get shot to ribbons before they ever get a chance to swing. Penitent Engines get less attacks. Heavy Bolter Retributors got nerfed, and Heavy Bolter Immolators are terribly outclassed by, well, everything. We didn't get any new units and actually lost two more (Confessor, Kyrinov). No sign of the Repressor, Avenger, Zealots, etc. Every unit still only has one faith power- I really would have liked to see a few 'generic' powers, like we had in the Witch Hunter days.

So, a few things got better, everything else got either worse, or more expensive, or both. I think we're going to see another decade of the Sisters of Battle having one good/competative build, and a lot of fun and fluffy units that only come out of the multicase for fun games. Oh well, better luck next time eh?




And, unit by unit:
HQ- Sororitas
Saint Celestian still seems pretty good, but is more fairly priced for what she delivers. The vanilla Canoness still seems underwhelming. I feel like they just shuffled around points costs and rules without any meaningful changes. What she gains from the cheaper Rosarius, she loses to more expensive weapon options. Her Act of Faith grants Hatred instead of Preferred Enemy and +1 Initiative, etc. But the changes all seem superficial- she's still a good 20 points overpriced. Martyrdom seems cool, but I suspect by the time the Canoness dies (turn three or so), I'll have already burned through a good chunk of my faith and won't be able to make the most of it. The Command Squad's enormous drop in points is noteworthy. I'm not sold on their ability to make for a good close combat unit, but I think there's a lot of potential in there with the right builds.

Battle Conclaves are pretty much the same; Arco-Flagellants got a lot cheaper and Assassins and Crusaders are restricted to Swords. However, they still suffer from their inability to last long enough to get into combat. In 5th, when they could charge out of a Rhino, they were much better. I think they might have taken another small hit, in that they can no longer benefit from adding the old 'FnP, +1A' Jacobus. The new Jacobus is sort of a mash-up of his former self, and some of Kyrinov's stuff (the Icon of Chiros' bubble of courage). So, he loses the FnP and +1A buff I used to love putting in my Battle Conclave, and instead gets a Warlord Trait that doesn't help the Conclave in the least, and a special rule that enhances Acts of Faith. So, the new Jacobus seems to be a good fit for a unit that makes the most of its Faith- I'm just not sure what unit that is yet, or whether it's worth his pricetag. But I suspect that Jacobus will prove his worth in the weeks to come. The Confessor and Kyrinov are gone, though generic Priests got way cheaper and way better. It's also worth noting that you can now take 9 Sisters and a Priest, and squeeze them all in a Rhino (Repressor), and still get the two special weapons. I think the Priest might be an auto-include.

Elites
Celestians are pricey Battle Sisters who can't score. The fact that BSS can come in squads of five, coupled with the fact that the Celestians really haven't gotten anything but a price cut, means that they're still pretty useless. Repentia lost Feel No Pain. Despite their price drop, and their ability to take a dedicated transport, I think they got worse- they're going to get shot off the table before they get into assault.

Troops
Battle Sister Squads are a little more expensive than before- despite the lower sticker price, you'll end up spending more points if you grab the Veteran Superior or the Simulacrum Imperialis; you'll need both of them to approximate the in game value of the old WD codex's squad. Heavy Flamers got much better, Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters got inexplicable price bumps. They can only use their Act of Faith once per game, now, which is worse than before. Superior options are pretty similar to before, though the Contemptor Boltgun seems to have gotten better. Squads of 5 Sisters are now possible, complete with two special weapons, though they don't have much in the way of staying power. Squads of 9 are much more important, in my opinion, since you can now grab 9 Sisters, 2 meltas or flamers, a priest, and cram them all in a Rhino, and make your Space Wolf friends green with envy. Squads of 20 sisters, reinforced by a Priest, could be another way to go. I think that a lot of good Sisters lists are going to work by synergizing Battle Sister Squads with Priests. Zealots/Frateris Militia, which I'd really hoped to see, didn't make the book.

Dedicated Transports
The Rhino got a 5 point bump; I guess that's to cover Shield of Faith, and the Searchlight that now comes standard. The Repressor saw more meaningful changes. It got marginally cheaper, though the real winner is the fact that the Multimelta upgrade is now free. Heavy Bolter Immolators lost Inferno Bolts, though, with the price reduction on the Multi-Melta, I really can't see myself ever running it with the flamers or the bolters again. The Repressor was not included in the book.

Fast Attack
Seraphim are pretty much unchanged, except for the change to Acts of Faith. Hand Flamers got a little cheaper, Angelic Visage got a little worse. Dominions are superficially similar to their previous incarnation, though they now enjoy the benefit of 4 special weapons, regardless of squad size. However, their Act of Faith no longer grants Twin-Linked: it now grants Ignore Cover. Whether or not this is a good thing is dependent upon your meta and playstyle; I personally would have preferred Twin Linked.

Heavy Support
The Exorcist is virtually unchanged, except for a small points reduction. Retributors got worse: between the fact that Heavy Bolters doubled in price, and the changes to Faith, Retributors have lost most of their luster. Heavy Flamer Retributors might be destined to make a comeback, though- time and experimentation will tell. Penitent Engines got a little worse as well; they have 3 attacks rather than d6, and no longer gain bonus attacks for delivering unsaved wounds. They're probably balanced with the new Retributors, but both can't compete with the Exorcist. The Avenger Strike Fighter is not included in the book.

edits for formatting and typos

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
OMG QQ 11!!11!!1

Look... the army plays differently. Yes, by your exacting standards stuff got nerfed. I agree.

Try to think of other styles of playing and you'll be pleasantly surprised

I would've played them if they had new models. Other than that it just looks like some sort of poopy rehash. Over $100 for ten sisters? No.

I might still buy the codex to make an Ordo Sepulchurum army though...

 J.Black wrote:
Yes, by your exacting standards stuff got nerfed. I agree.

Try to think of other styles of playing and you'll be pleasantly surprised

I was answering to :

Almost everything got better.

Don't you see that not almost everything got better ? A few things got better, many things got worse. Maybe we can find new ways to overuse the things that got better. Still not true that “almost everything” got better.

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I can take a 20 Sister unit, put 5 priests in it and 2 HQs.

Priests:
Ecclesiarchy Relic: Litanies of Faith: Autopass AoF and Hymn
Zealot gives unit Fearless and Hatred
The Emperor Protects (reroll armour and inv).
The Righteousness of the Emperor (reroll To Wound)
Any that are left do The Emperor's Strength (3 S3 Ap2 attacks (4 on charge or Smash for 2 S6 Ap2 attacks)

Uriah Jacobus:
If Warlord Indomitable Belief: Shield of Faith 5+
The Emperor's Strength for 4 S3 Ap2 attacks (or 5 on charge or 2 S6 Ap2 attacks, 3 on charge)
Banner gives Counter-attack

Saint Celestine:
If Warlord Beacon of Faith: 12" AoF and Hymns on Ld10
Hit and Run

So I could have a unit that has:
Fearless
Hatred
Counter Attack
Hit and Run
Reroll armour and Inv saves
Reroll to wound
3+ 5++(If Uriah Warlord) on all Battle Sisters
Auto passes all AoF or Hymn tests with a Priest that has Litanies of Faith.

a unit cannot attempt to use more than one Act of Faith in the same phase

I think people are mistaking does things different now and nerfed.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I was answering to :

Almost everything got better.

Not really.... when you quote someone else 5 times you give the impression that you are responding to them

Regardless: 5 Strong BSS squads are massive. It effectively halves the 'tax' we had to pay for putting an army on the table whilst retaining all the utility of having a special + heavy weapon in the squad. That alone gives us a big enough boost to counter the nerfs handed out to other units!

shadowsfm wrote:

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
So I could have a unit that has:
Fearless (From Jacobus banner)
Hatred (From the priest Zealot rule)
Counter Attack(From Jacobus banner)
Hit and Run(From Celestine special rule)
Reroll armour and Inv saves(From the priest War hymns)
Reroll to wound(From Jacobus War hymns)
3+ 5++(If Uriah Warlord) on all Battle Sisters(From Uriah Warlord trait)
Auto passes all AoF or Hymn tests with a Priest that has Litanies of Faith.

a unit cannot attempt to use more than one Act of Faith in the same phase

So ?

War Hymns do stack, which is pretty nasty. 3 Priests in a squad means you get all three.

ok cool

 J.Black wrote:
Not really.... when you quote someone else 5 times you give the impression that you are responding to them

Do you still think “almost everything got better”, or is it just “the few things that got better make up for all that went worse” now ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
War Hymns do stack, which is pretty nasty. 3 Priests in a squad means you get all three.

Except only two war hymns applies to the unit, the last one only applies to the priest. If that one would also apply to the unit, it would be beastly ! “Hey, look, all my DCA decide to smash, they only get 3 CC5 S8 AP2 attacks at I6 each. U mad ?”

Lynata has outfluffed me once again on numbers of Sisters. I stand corrected.

And then there's my other error I caught myself:

 SisterSydney wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I guess Priests weren't selling well enough or something, since now we pretty much have to fill our army with dirty old men for our Sisters to be even near as effective as they used to be!

Priestesses. I don't recall any fluff saying the Ecclesiarchy is men-only...

Apparently I was WRONG!

Just downloaded the book (it popped at 11pm Eastern) and saw

“Male Progena may become Commissars or soldiers in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood of the Adeptus Ministorum. Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum."

That strongly implies there are no female priests -- or Commissars for that matter. (Sorry, Raege).

Of course, it also implies no female Progena join the Imperial Guard or Navy, but those two organizations don't recruit exclusively or even primarily from the Scholae as the Commissariat and the Sisterhood do, so that doesn't contradict the female Guard and Navy officers that show up in various sources.

Now, it's entirely possible that the Ministorum recruits clergy who aren't Progena -- in fact given its size it would probably have to -- but it's hard to imagine them thinking a non-Progena female was worthy to join when Progena ones aren't.

But never fear! I can still justify female models in those priest slots. Death Cult Assassins are (all? Almost all?) female, and who better to lead the Sororitas screaming into battle than a veteran Death Cultist who is considered a priestess by her cult and (grudgingly) recognized as equivalent-to-ordained by the Ministorum?

Alternatively, you can just say these are Sisters from some militant or even non-militant order with leadership skills (and perhaps de facto ordination) that lets them count-as Priests. But ordained DCA are funnier.

The extra priests are there only for their Eviscerator wannabe attacks. 3 priests with 2 S6 Ap2 attacks each is pretty nasty.

CSM pay 25 points for the Icon of Vengeance that gives Fearless...
AS pay 25 points for a model that gives Fearless, Hatred and can give his unit rerollable armour and inv saves, or reroll To Wounds.

If neither of those are needed he can make his own close combat attacks S3 AP2 (models with Smash always count their CC as AP2) or smash for S6 AP2.

And on top of this an Eviscerator costs 30pts... You dont even need to buy one for a priest as he can give himself the same thing (without Armourbane).


WHY ARE EVISCERATORS 30 POINTS!!!

Hurpa Durpa! But Power Fists cost 25pts in the SM codex, the armourbane has to be worth an extra 5pts right?

SM are S4 so they get S8 AP2 attacks, Sisters get S6 Ap2 with Armourbane... we all know you'd pop vehicles with Melta and not Eviscerators!

Just noticed that the War of Faith section mention the horrible, horrible, very horrible Blood Tide fluff from a Sister of Battle point of view. Which is “Some Khorne greater daemon arrived here, Sisters battled his force, some Grey Knights arrived, and then the Sisters were all dead, but we just made them Martyr and never suspected anything wrong here.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 J.Black wrote:
Not really.... when you quote someone else 5 times you give the impression that you are responding to them

Do you still think “almost everything got better”, or is it just “the few things that got better make up for all that went worse” now ?

No, but I do.

Almost everything got better and the things that didn't get better got different, but still about the same. Celestine even got better in some ways. Can you do the exact same things with every unit that you could before? No. Can you do equally cool things with almost every unit?

Celestine? Lost infinite regen. Gained Hit and Run and army synergy. adamantium will and martyrdom. Fun fact? You can deny your opponent Slay the Warlord by not using Miraculous Intervention. THe wording of her rule says she only counts if she fails her act or dies the second time. Oh and she got master crafted, lost poison but got +2 strength. I would say this is a wash.

Jacobus? Lost FNP, +1 Attack. Gained 5++ for his unit, fearles and counter attack bubble, auto faith power, his rerolls work when he gets charged now, he is fearless instead of stubborn on his unit, he gets martyrdom and adamantium will. This is all gain.

Seraphim inferno pistols? I'm sorry but if you use them you really don't have much to complain about. THey have always been bad and complaining that they are still bad is just silly. Yes, Seraphim pay for their VSS and don't get a Simulacrum. Cheaper hand flamers help out a lot though. about even here.

Conclave? I'm sorry, because I used the Power WEapon thing, but no one should really have expected that we got to keep the 'pick your own weapon' rule. Now they get reroll wounds and/or reroll saves from their priest. Either way, they are still bad because of no delivery system. About even.

Flamer Doms? Yes, these are no longer valid. Melta doms are so much better now though. This is a gain for Doms. 4 specials in 5? Holy crap is it a gain.

Really, what got worse?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Canoness is much cooler now, too bad she got such a dud act of faith.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Playing with lists and it is crazy:

Celestine

Jacobus

20 Sisters with Simulacrum, VSS, MM,Flamer

2 x 5 BSS with HF/Melta in TL-MM Immo

2 Dominions (6) with 4 Meltas, Simulacrum, VSS in TL-MM Immo

3 Exorcists

Aegis with Quad

4 Priests with 1 Litany, 4 Plasma Guns

1836

20 Sisters with Fearless, 5++ Save, Hit and Run, Counter-Attack, all of the goodies from 2 priests, Jacobus and Celestine. Put the two other priests with the BSS. Yikes. Sit them behind the aegis and laugh.