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That was just referring to their background. Celestians were a new addition in 3E - before Codex: Witch Hunters, their role on the battlefield and within the convent was performed by the Seraphim.

"Even amongst the highly skilled warriors of the Orders Militant, some Battle Sisters prove themselves to be exceptionally talented. These are organised into Seraphim squads, and the Seraphim Sister Superiors teach them the ancient fighting techniques which have been passed on down the millennia since the Daughters of the Emperor were founded. These include methods of unarmed fighting and armed hand-to-hand combat, as well as using sophisticated equipment such as jump packs. [...]

The Seraphim are the elite shock troops of the Orders Militant, comprised of the most battle-hardened and worthy of the Battle Sisters of each Order. [...]

The Canoness may be accompanied by a special Bodyguard of 5 Seraphim. The bodyguard may be equipped with jump packs and exchange their bolter for two bolt pistols for +30 points. [...]"
- 2E C:SoB

I kind of miss this, actually. One corps of elite Sisters is sufficient, and although both types of squads now have a raison d'être to exist since their specialisations have been split, I believe it could have been done in a way that kept the now-Celestians a part of the Seraphim.

Aha. Once again you have shown undefeatable fluff-fu -- arguably greater than the GW staff who write the codices...

Just wanted to mention that Celestians and Seraphim do have effectively the same number of attacks.

Celestians have 2 base attacks, but no option for two close combat weapons.

Seraphim have 1 base attack, but have two pistols each, and pistols can be used as close combat weapons, giving them a second attack.

Ah, yes. So in effect:

Close combat
Celestians: 2A @ WS4
Seraphim: 2A @ WS3

Shooting:
Celestians (bolters): 24", 1-2 shots (rapid fire) @ BS4
Seraphim (brace of bolt pistols) 12", 2 shots (gunslinger rule) @ BS4.

I guess i could assert that Celestians perform the same job as sterns/vanguard vets in the SM dex, higher leadership and base attacks w/ higher WS. Do Celestians have acces to lots of special weapons?

yeah, Celestians get heavy bolter, storm bolter, better meltas, multi meltas and better flamers and heavy flamer.

seraphim have the same Ws as Celestians by the way, reroll there invulnerability save, have hammer of wrath, move 12 inches and have deep strike

act of faith Celestians get fearless and +1 strength in assaults
seraphim get rerolls on wounds at shooting phase

so its situational which to use

 SisterSydney wrote:
Wait, how are Celestians just wingless Seraphim if they have +1 WS and (in the current codex) +A? Their statline being better suggests they're more elite -- as does, um, being Elites.

The current fluff does have them as more elite, it seems. The 5e codex describes them as "the finest" warriors in their Order. Seraphim, meanwhile, now seem to be chosen on the basis of their faith, with the 5e codex saying something about Sisters whose faith burns the brightest being trained as Seraphim.

I don't mind the Celestians being the Order's best, since it befits their status and force org slot, but I think I prefer the fluff where future Seraphim are chosen on their talent rather than faith. It makes them sound more skilled.

I've always interpreted in a way that Seraphim are trained just like Dominions and Retributors based on proficiency displayed at the beginning of their service with the Order. They just need to score way higher than the other two for consideration.
Celestians, on the other hand, are always veterans of many campaigns, and would be recruited out of the other ranks based on seniority and deeds.

Thus you might still achieve a similar degree of "eliteness" - it's just two different approaches that both lead to exceptional warriors, one by initial evaluation and the other by actual performance.

Yeah, I imagine my Seraphim as young and idealist and full of fervor, while the Celestians are older and tougher and more cynical.

I don't think you can quite manage to be a cynical Sister, you'd be penitent'd quite quickly.

It's perfectly possible to be cynical AND supremely faithful.

Look at Canoness Setheno. She's a sarcastic old hag and still keeps faith with the Emperor (even if she has lost her faith in humanity).

Seraphim are WS4, as has been stated, by the way.

Celestians don't get extra special weapons, they have the exact same "two specials or one special and one heavy" that standard battle sister squads get. They just come in smaller squads.

I think that a greater separation from their roots would do the Celestians some good. Make it more obvious that they're Veterans, give them special ammo options and give them crusader-type wargear options.

Maybe something like;

Unbroken Faith: Celestians have seen decades of war and remained unbroken by them. A Celestian squad must choose one of the following at the start of the battle:
Art of the Bolter: The squad is equipped with Hellfire, Dragonfire, Kraken and Stalker rounds.
Art of the Blade: The squad is armed with close-combat weapons in addition to their standard weapons.

Then, of course, add this to their options;

Any Sister may take a Combat Shield: +2 points/model

And this to their special/heavy weapon lists;

Exchange one weapon for a power weapon and storm shield: +20 points

Isn't there a difference between sarcasm and cynism? I could see the former happen much easier (and indeed a number of characters in Swallow's novels give good examples of such behaviour without threatening their overall professionalism and zeal/conviction), but the latter being at least somewhat "dangerous" in terms of faithfulness. As far as I understand the concepts, sarcasm is just biting humour, but cynism springs from a deeply sceptic and pessimistic mindset.

Furyou Miko wrote:Any Sister may take a Combat Shield: +2 points/model

Aren't combat shields just a 6++ invul save? That seems a bit useless given our current ( ) version of Shield of Faith.

Furyou Miko wrote:Exchange one weapon for a power weapon and storm shield: +20 points

Much better.

I think of Celestians as having enough contact with outsiders -- if only Imperial Guard, Arbites, heretics, & civilians in the crossfire -- that they're deeply cynical about humanity, not the Emperor. Whereas I imagine Seraphim as young and wide-eyed and all "Gosh, how could anybody not love and obey the God-Emperor? I just can't understand those people. Surely there can't be that many of them out there. I bet if we just burn the ringleaders and some bad apples, the rest will see sense!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and also, "Gee, those Imperial Guard boys must be so brave, going into battle like that, with just flashlights and t-shirts. Look at them go, right at the enemy lines! Wait, why are they all running back this way?"

 Lynata wrote:
Isn't there a difference between sarcasm and cynism? I could see the former happen much easier (and indeed a number of characters in Swallow's novels give good examples of such behaviour without threatening their overall professionalism and zeal/conviction), but the latter being at least somewhat "dangerous" in terms of faithfulness. As far as I understand the concepts, sarcasm is just biting humour, but cynism springs from a deeply sceptic and pessimistic mindset.

Aren't combat shields just a 6++ invul save? That seems a bit useless given our current ( ) version of Shield of Faith.

^^; That's a good point. Well, make them a +1 to Invulnerable save instead (so they get a 5++ instead)? Call them Sacred Boards or Combat Sacraments or something.

(yes, I'm aware that 'Combat Sacrament' would be more appropriate for a performance-enhancing drug...)

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Faith points per turn as per 4th edition
Acts of Faith as per 4th edition

3rd edition. We didn't have a new codex in 4th.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Assault vehicle for Repentia
AV 14 Flying Church (Monolith style)
AV 14 LR-style Church vehicle
Ignores Cover on Exorcists as an upgrade

Come on man, think of something new and interesting, not just a few regurgitated old space marine/necron vehicles...

For my own part, I had an entire codex of wishlisty ideas for 5th edition, somewhere out there.

 Melissia wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Faith points per turn as per 4th edition
Acts of Faith as per 4th edition

3rd edition. We didn't have a new codex in 4th.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Assault vehicle for Repentia
AV 14 Flying Church (Monolith style)
AV 14 LR-style Church vehicle
Ignores Cover on Exorcists as an upgrade

Come on man, think of something new and interesting, not just a few regurgitated old space marine/necron vehicles...

For my own part, I had an entire codex of wishlisty ideas for 5th edition, somewhere out there.

Whats wrong with that? Its the easiest way to give people a strong idea of what your thinking of is to give an example of something that already exists. A short hand for example: "I wish they had access to Landspeeders" Or "I wish they had a fast skimmer, that could be fitted with multiple different weapons." its two ways of saying the same thing.

I want a deep striking Church. A fortification that can be deployed by Deepstrike, doesn't mishap (unless it goes off the table) and looks fuggin' awesome.

Ralis wrote:
"I wish they had access to Landspeeders" Or "I wish they had a fast skimmer, that could be fitted with multiple different weapons." [is] two ways of saying the same thing.

No it isn't.

The former is asking for a direct copy of something that already exists, and cannot be made unique-- it will always be a rip-off. The latter is describing something that does not yet exist, and can be made unique... it does not have to be a Landspeeder. Ergo, the latter is better. Sisters are not Space Marines, so there's no reason to be lazy and say "give them everything Space Marines have".

 Melissia wrote:

Ralis wrote:
"I wish they had access to Landspeeders" Or "I wish they had a fast skimmer, that could be fitted with multiple different weapons." [is] two ways of saying the same thing.

No it isn't.

The former is asking for a direct copy of something that already exists, and cannot be made unique-- it will always be a rip-off. The latter is describing something that does not yet exist, and can be made unique... it does not have to be a Landspeeder. Ergo, the latter is better. Sisters are not Space Marines, so there's no reason to be lazy and say "give them everything Space Marines have".

I understand your point. and there are arguments against that. such as A: They already have access to things space marines have, the main example of that is the Rhino. So it makes sense that they would continue to have access to the same equipment as space marines. Both from a fluff perspective, and for quickly expanding the Sister's model range. aka: they already have the rhino, so why shouldn't they get the Razorback?

I'd rather see them get their own Unique units, as well. but people are going to use "Short hand" in threads like this buy just listing something that already exists. when they are really saying they want them to have something similar.

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters are not Space Marines, so there's no reason to be lazy and say "give them everything Space Marines have".

I run into that every now and then and I think that goes back to the "Sisters are basically T3 Marines" mentality some people have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's another one for the list: a flyer that looks like the Aquila and drops S8, AP, Large Blast, Armorbane bombs and breathes S6, AP3 torrent flamer templates from both heads (at different targets).

ClockworkZion wrote:I want a deep striking Church. A fortification that can be deployed by Deepstrike, doesn't mishap (unless it goes off the table) and looks fuggin' awesome.

I dunno ... there are droppable prefab-fortifications mentioned in Codex Planetstrike, but this strikes (hah) me as more of an Imperial Guard thing to do. Sisters aren't a siege force, but assault - hence I'd rather have the Dominica-pattern Drop Pods from the CJ list, accompanying the advance of their ground forces with impromptu heavy bolter and multimelta turrets placed directly into the enemy lines.

Perhaps those drop pods could be pimped up a little, though, featuring thermal-resistant church windows and frescos that depict winged angels with flaming swords descending on ugly daemons.

ClockworkZion wrote:I run into that every now and then and I think that goes back to the "Sisters are basically T3 Marines" mentality some people have.

Well, GW has often enough compared them against each other, both individually ("[...] fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines [...]" - GW website) as well as in terms of organisation and lifestyle ("each convent has its own fleets and conducts its own affairs in much the same way as the Space Marine Chapters" - Codex Imperialis). I think a certain overlap is quite intentional (want male elite warriors, go SM - want female elite warriors, go SoB), and I would deem it petty to try and debate it away when the true fans all know what still makes them unique. As Ralis mentioned, we are supposed to know what someone means by saying "LR-style", rather than "LR".

Obviously a matter of interpretation and personal preferences, tho.

The church thing would be something that is different than what everyone else has. Besides, dropping in with hymns playing, the Sisters chanting prayers and guns ablazing would be SWEET.

ClockworkZion wrote:The church thing would be something that is different than what everyone else has. Besides, dropping in with hymns playing, the Sisters chanting prayers and guns ablazing would be SWEET.

Sure, but if we get something different, it should be something that fits to how they deploy and what they do.
Although this may be a matter of conflicting interpretations?

When talking "church things", I'd rather have that superheavy we discussed in the other thread - the tracked cathedral. At least that one has been shown in an artwork, and a lumbering multi-storey mobile base is, or so I believe, a more fitting representation of the Adepta Sororitas in a War of Faith, or rather the general concept of a crusade. A slow but unstoppable behemoth of the faithful that will eventually trample everything in its path, carrying the Emperor's light with it.

A "drop church" on the other hand just seems too ... static to me. The only times Sisters do static defence is when they rally around a temple, and then they already have a fortification. Siege fortresses just sound a lot like starving the enemy over weeks or months of continuous artillery barrage, and that's something the Imperial Guard is a lot better at.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The church thing would be something that is different than what everyone else has. Besides, dropping in with hymns playing, the Sisters chanting prayers and guns ablazing would be SWEET.

Exalted. So hard.

Chanting prayers works a lot better when you march alongside a tracked cathedral, rather than ducking behind the walls of an immobile fortress. /stubborn

A church doesn't have to march to be effective though.

Ralis wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Faith points per turn as per 4th edition
Acts of Faith as per 4th edition

3rd edition. We didn't have a new codex in 4th.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Assault vehicle for Repentia
AV 14 Flying Church (Monolith style)
AV 14 LR-style Church vehicle
Ignores Cover on Exorcists as an upgrade

Come on man, think of something new and interesting, not just a few regurgitated old space marine/necron vehicles...

For my own part, I had an entire codex of wishlisty ideas for 5th edition, somewhere out there.

Whats wrong with that? Its the easiest way to give people a strong idea of what your thinking of is to give an example of something that already exists. A short hand for example: "I wish they had access to Landspeeders" Or "I wish they had a fast skimmer, that could be fitted with multiple different weapons." its two ways of saying the same thing.

I sympathize with Melissa. Sisters of battle suffer from their comparison with Space Marines. To many people SoB are seen as no different than the novelty of playing a female marine chapter. That just isn't fair. The SoB should either stand on their own or else they shouldn't exist. I understand the temptation of including space marine units or tweaked unit and some are even justified but they should be included sparingly and only when it makes sense conceptually. There are things that I think SoB should have but generalizing them by describing them as Marine units does them a disservice.

For example while I think SoB should have Centurion like exo-suits... It's because they already have penitent engines and should have compact versions of that tech and not because I think they should have Centurions.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Ralis wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Faith points per turn as per 4th edition
Acts of Faith as per 4th edition

3rd edition. We didn't have a new codex in 4th.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Assault vehicle for Repentia
AV 14 Flying Church (Monolith style)
AV 14 LR-style Church vehicle
Ignores Cover on Exorcists as an upgrade

Come on man, think of something new and interesting, not just a few regurgitated old space marine/necron vehicles...

For my own part, I had an entire codex of wishlisty ideas for 5th edition, somewhere out there.

Whats wrong with that? Its the easiest way to give people a strong idea of what your thinking of is to give an example of something that already exists. A short hand for example: "I wish they had access to Landspeeders" Or "I wish they had a fast skimmer, that could be fitted with multiple different weapons." its two ways of saying the same thing.

I sympathize with Melissa. Sisters of battle suffer from their comparison with Space Marines. To many people SoB are seen as no different than the novelty of playing a female marine chapter. That just isn't fair. The SoB should either stand on their own or else they shouldn't exist. I understand the temptation of including space marine units or tweaked unit and some are even justified but they should be included sparingly and only when it makes sense conceptually. There are things that I think SoB should have but generalizing them by describing them as Marine units does them a disservice.

For example while I think SoB should have Centurion like exo-suits... It's because they already have penitent engines and should have compact versions of that tech and not because I think they should have Centurions.

But you just did exactly what Melissa was complaining about! Her complaint was about listing things as "Like this" and now you've said they should have something "Like Centurions"

Let me try to end this particular argument by simply saying:

While it would be awesome for the Sisters of Battle to get unique things. I would Love to see them get a unique flier, heavy armor tank, and small fast atv style vehicle. I simply believe that what GW will do, to quickly expand the SOB model range, would be to give them access to models that already exist for Space Marines and Imperial Guard that fit the fluff of the Sisters (( Namely their "Burn baby burn" aspect)) such as giving them access to the Razor Back in addition to the Rhino, Land Raider Redeemer, or Hellhound tanks.

aka_mythos wrote:I sympathize with Melissa. Sisters of battle suffer from their comparison with Space Marines. To many people SoB are seen as no different than the novelty of playing a female marine chapter.

Does that include anyone in this thread, though? Or, applying the same logic to other armies, Would it harm the Space Marines if someone were to say that it'd be cool to get "an Exorcist-like missile tank"? Falling back on established concepts that everyone knows rather than spending more words to describe the very same (or a somewhat similar, if using the suffix "-like") thing isn't efficient, and insisting on it just comes across as weird (imho).

I think a couple posters are perhaps a bit oversensitive when it comes to such comparisons as they see the Sisters being treated in a stepmotherly way - and whilst they'd be correct in this perception, I think such remarks only serve to drive an artificial wedge between us and other parts of the fandom, rather than attempting to integrate ourselves as a part of the community and the franchise as a whole.

If you want the Sisters to be treated with the same respect as Space Marines by other players, start by stopping to push for a special treatment where everyone is supposed to stop applying a very common way to convey ideas just because they're talking about SoB.

aka_mythos wrote:For example while I think SoB should have Centurion like exo-suits... It's because they already have penitent engines and should have compact versions of that tech and not because I think they should have Centurions.

I just had to think of Ripley's Powerloader when that topic came up. Female heroine fighting dirty xenos was "Sisterly" enough for me.

PS: Penitent Engines, just like Arco-Flagellants, are actually an Ecclesiarchy thing, though - not of the Adepta Sororitas.

FNP for sisters across the board.

Arbites (cc) and Stormtroopers as troops

for stormtrooper (to be copied into IG codex when its redone)
Hellgun with 3 fire modes
Hotshot - str 4 ap 3 18" rapidfire
Normal - str 3 ap 5 24" assault 2
Longshot - str- ap - 36" rapid fire, sniper

Battle sisters shooting act of faith changed to make special/heavy weapon TL and bolters 2/3 salvo 24.

immolator getting its inferno cannon back, maybe an armor increase on it as well.

Penitent engine getting moved to the elites and made into a t5-6 beast instead of walker,

Weapon abilties for Dominions and retributor squads stormbolter and heavy bolter options are free

Heavy bolter/Stormbolter: Extra shot and/or rending
Heavy Flamer/Flamer: torrent base, heavy flamer has the option to torrent out to 18" but at regular flamer stats
Multi melta/meta: +6" range and something else