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Aha, that makes sense. You've studied Latin, obviously, and I have not.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Aha, that makes sense. You've studied Latin, obviously, and I have not.

Haha, I'm not big with Latin either, but one of our most active player is a huge SoB fan and he runs a "Vindictus Squad" (snipers too, but the snipery-sniper flavor) and he told me this .

I'm particularly partial to "Vigils" myself, as it's a widely understood English word (like "Dominions" or "Seraphim") with multiple ecclesiastical & martial meanings.

Makes the Canoness' mention of "naked vigils on cold stone floors" sound ambiguous.

Personally, I think Vindictus/Vindica is rather close to the Vindicare, tho.
Finding a cool term that isn't already hogged by some other army is, unfortunately, rather difficult in 40k ...

Except that we already have a squad called Retributors. :p

How about Asphodel squads? Asphodel being the flowers that grow in Hades, while sounding cooler than 'Daffodils'.

Yes, and "retributors" is neither a word in English nor in Latin.... very annoying... "vindictors"/"vindictas" would be a much better term, but too late now.

But no, no, no, we are not naming any Sisters units after flowers. You do realize that asphodels are not merely mythological but something that old ladies in floppy hats actually grow in their gardens?

Well, I thought it was quite poetic.

Yes, I do realise that. Hence my comment that "it sounds cooler than Daffodils".

No offense meant.... and it's awesome that you've got alternative versions of your avatar with different facial expressions to insert into your posts.

Still not gonna do flowers, though. I love my anime too, but "incredibly vicious warriors named after pretty delicate things" doesn't translate well to 40K...

Sure it does.

...

Is that really 'animeish'? ><

I dunno, I think it kind of fits to the Sisters' spin on taking innocent things and turning them into tools of war... I love this ambiguity about them!



Kind of like having two faces. I briefly touched upon the stark difference between their pretty heads and the grim appearance of their helmets in this post over at the FFG forums. It really seems deliberate to me...

(and yes, I love Miko's reaction images so much - a pretty unique thing here)

Sadly, I've got to agree with many posts about the Reapers.

Reapers are plainly an assassination unit, but the boltguns won't be why you bring them. Infiltrating meltaguns will be their number one use. Also, aside from what was previously mentioned about the scoped boltguns conflicting with their unit's Act, it also conflicts with meltaguns. Reading the Sniper rules, it means that their meltaguns become Sniper, and wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness. Problem is, Str 8 is almost always better than 4+ all the time. Also, have to agree on it being curious that they get stealth, shrouded, and camo cloaks. As already mentioned, 3+ cover standing in the open is crazy. Although, to be fair, most codexes are being handed Ignore Cover like candy. They'll still die instantly to a Hellturkey.

Still, its nice to bring out new deployment types, but I agree its best to treat them more like SM Scouts, give them Carapace Armor and options to purchase camo cloaks. Giving them optional ammo is nice, like the Illumination Bolts I came up with, or Inferno Bolts straight out of the codex. I'd probably drop their base points down to about 13, special rules down to Infiltrate and Move Thru Cover, and arm them with some special boltgun ammo. Their Act of Faith should really reflect what you want them to do as a unit. If it weren't for Retributors, I'd say have the special ammo give their Boltguns/Stormbolters Rending and their Act of Faith provide Precision Shots rule as well as making them succeed on a To Hit of 5/6 and To Wound/Armor Pen of 5/6 for Precision Shots/Rending respectively. That way, they become infantry decimation while threatening light vehicles. Meltaguns can still be employed for Turn 1 box popping, and they are cheap enough to take in large squads to avoid getting eaten alive by an entire army noticing a group of enemies in their midst. Price the camo cloaks at 2 ppm, and you're spending as much for Celestians as you are for these girls. They are equal points but less durable than Dominions. Retributors would have to be changed a bit to keep them relevant in the army, so I'd say give them something awesome like Ignore Cover or Relentless for their Act of Faith. Command Squad needs a better Act anyway. Celestians too for that matter.

As for the Thrones, I've got to agree that T3 bikers doesn't sit well. Especially since they lose most of the good things about being a bike while being 1 point more expensive than Space Marine Bikes. Their Act of Faith is...problematic. You don't want Bikes in melee combat. They are way too expensive and have way too much shooting to be tied up in HtH. Their Hit and Run rule is nice, but they are S 3, T 3. Hit and Run is only useful if you don't lose combat or fail your morale test. They'll only end up charging things like Tac Marines and other things that are T3. Now, to be fair, with their current Act, they would average 3 unsaved wounds versus MEQs while taking only one in return. That's assuming you're charging Tactical Marines.

Biker units are typically harassers, and rightfully so, using their dakka to bring down exposed flanks while using their speed to get there. If you are playing at these girls being fragile speedsters, then they should get something crazy, like an Act of Faith that lets them Turbo Boost after shooting. Even so, these girls are just too expensive for what they do. They'd need a major price break to be even slightly competitive.

Finally, not sure what to make of the Novitiate squads. On the one hand, I look at the unit and frown over a few minor things. First of all, that they have the resources laying around to give these novices strength enhancing harnesses and carapace armor. Second, novices-in-training have BS 3. Conscripts have BS 2, and rightfully so. I'm also trying to determine what you want this unit to be doing on the battlefield. At first glance, it looks like its supposed to be a unit that holds backfield objectives, but the Act of Faith clashes with that entirely. Its an offensive rule on a defensive unit. Rage doesn't combine with Counter-Attack, so its useless unless they are actively charging. Children being Fearless doesn't quite sit well either. They also don't have a Close Combat Weapon or equivalent.

If this is supposed to be a unit for the backfield, than it should be defensive in nature. Since anything that would actually intend to charge these girls is probably going to absolutely slaughter them, you should focus more on their vulnerability to being shot off the table. Perhaps their Act of Faith should make their cover save an invulnerable save if they Go To Ground, sort of a version of the old tradition of hiding under your desk during a missile drill. The Emperor Protects and all. Also, its a nice throw back to the Witch Hunter's codex where an Act of Faith would make their armor save invulnerable instead. That way, you could buy them and an Aegis and stick it next to an objective in cover to enjoy a 2+ Cover or Invuln save. Just a thought.

All good points, some reinforcing critiques made by others (Reapers' crazy cover saves and screwy AOF, Thrones' T3 & cost, Novices' AOF), and others that are new:
- infiltrating Meltas, not boltguns, are the reason people will take Reapers (or Vigils as I'm thinking of renaming them);
- novices really deserving WS:3; I'd starting wondering about that and now I'm convinced they do.
- Bikes being shooty yet Thrones having a melee AOF; I think your idea of an AOF that lets them shoot & turbo-boost in the same phase is awesome and that's totally what I'll change it to.

Thanks to everyone for your input. I’ve revised the units below. In brief:

- Vigils (formerly Reapers) just have a +1 cover save from camo cloaks, not +4; their AOF makes all shots Precision Shots instead of given all weapons Sniper (Furyou’s idea); and they only cost 15 points. They don’t have special ammo a la Sternguard, though: I didn’t want to copy Marines and up to half of them can take Meltas or Flamers anyway.
- Thrones have an AOF to let them shoot and Turbo-Boost in the same phase (NydusTemplar’s idea) but don't have quite as many crazy movement bonuses otherwise. They’re still only T3 (sorry, Clockwork) but only cost 15 points.
- Novices gain +1 to WS, from 2 to 3, and +1 Ld, from 7 to 8, as befits graduates of the Schola Progenium. They also have a defensive AOF that lets them reroll wound saves instead of an offensive one. Finally, their minimum squad size is now 10. (And yes, Novices are still here, with apologies to all the folks who are passionate that they shouldn’t be).


Vigil Squad: 85 points (Elites)
Vigil WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++



Throne Squad: 85 points (Fast Attack)
Throne WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:8 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++



Novitiate Squad: 90 points (Troops)
Sororitas Novice WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:4+/6++
Mistress of Novices WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++


Edited to give Vigils and Mistress of Novices the standard-issue bolt pistols.

Don't most sisters carry a sidearm these days? Bolt pistols all around. With the options for the superiors/mistresses to swap their bolters for chainswords.

Good catch on bolt pistols. I'll edit those in for Vigils & the Mistress of Novices -- but not for the Novices themselves, since they can barely lift what they've got, and not for the Thrones, since their main weapon is built into their bike and the only personal weapon they're issued is a bolt pistol. (I think Spare Marine bikers are the same, actually).

You should probably update the OP with the new info and refer back to it later in the thread so people can read it. That way, new people entering the topic won't proceed to beat a dead squig.

As for the Vigils, I'm thinking there needs to be a better explanation than 'chosen because borderline psychotic'. A quick looking into a Vow of Silence turns up a wealth of information to plunder on this regard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vow_of_silence

Of note were things such as:

- As an aid to the practice of good, for silence is kept with Man, in order to better to speak with God, because an unguarded tongue dissipates the soul, rendering the mind almost, if not quite, incapable of prayer. The mere abstaining from speech, without this purpose, would be the "idle silence" which St. Ambrose so strongly condemns.

- As a preventative of evil. Seneca, quoted by Thomas à Kempis, complains that "As often as I have been amongst men, I have returned less a man" (Imitation, Book I, c. 20).

- There is also the use of a vow of silence done in order to sharpen other senses, whether they be physical or mental, or to discover certain aspects of oneself.

- Another vow of silence can be made to express a bold statement. This type may be to speak up controversial issues such as child poverty.

- Pythagoras imposed a strict rule of silence on his disciples; the Vestal virgins also were bound to severe silence for long years.

In particular, this could easily relate to 40K lore given the Emperor ascended the golden throne, he gave up his ability to communicate with others via normal means. A Sister might choose a vow of silence in honor of the God Emperor to which they are ultimately faithful. Did he not give up his voice for the betterment of others? He speaks in other ways and perhaps only the truly silent may hear him.

I would say, however, that having them communicate in sign language is almost counter productive. If it is to become a religious silence, then the point is actually to turn one's self inward instead of outward. Idle conversation is essentially dispensed with, and only the most basic of communication is allowed. I wonder if we can't also tie this practice back to the Sisters of Silence. Also, fasting is a theme for Sisters, so it could be another type of fast.

While, sure, simple information being exchanged could and would almost have to be allowed for the sake of battle, it might also be more frightening to behold a group of Sisters who are so in tune with themselves and each other that they need no outward signs of communication to work as a singular unit. The wiki does talk about how some basic signs are allowed depending on the practice, but I think it would have to be something similar to, let's say, the type of sign language used during World War 2. Simple gestures only intended to communicate who, what, and where about the enemy or the unit's readiness. Perhaps only restrict them to communication like this in battle and for training purposes.

Now the real question is why. Why do they take this vow? Is it because of the Emperor as above, or is it something more? Their outward reason maybe that simple to the Ecclesiarchy, but I'm entirely comfortable with the idea the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy need not be married to one another. There should be a small measure of disconnect, the Preachers and Confessors, while revered and honored, to be sure, are not seen as infallible conduits to the Emperor. After all, I'm sure that nuns and priests don't always see eye to eye on their own religion, and I think that kind of interplay between the two might not be so bad. Makes it more interesting if the Sisters are an independent group of practitioners instead of just 'Holier Than Thou Art' Order Militant slaved to the will of the Ecclesiarchy without a mind of their own.

I'd hate to throw another group of repentant Sisters out there, but perhaps its partially those who are troubled but not quite lacking in faith. Maybe they just can't quite find the words to describe the problem. They witness the purging of a group of Imperial citizens, those that the Emperor seeks to protect, and the quiet starts there. Perhaps for another, it is a natural aptitude for killing, and an almost love of bringing wrath to mankind's enemies. They enjoy nothing more than the silent approach, the creeping into position, the placing of the ambush. Their hunter instincts flare and they can taste the enemy's panic on their lips as they rise and unleash hymnals of wrath from sonorous boltguns with the roar of melta and flamer accompanying. Each Sister could have her own reason for walking the silent path, but maybe they all take the same vow. Easy to tie into the Emperor and his silence.

Many parts of these Vigils and how they operate fit nicely into the Sister's ways of doing things. Fasting helps one stay still because you don't need for food, and pain is no longer an issue as you wait for days or weeks in position as the Canoness decrees. Only a sip of holy water and the occasional turn of an eye to ensure the hunters are not to be the hunted.

Back to the crunch for a moment, however, I really have to agree that them being in power armor doesn't seem right. Its not a crime to give them similar gearing options to SM Scouts so long as you make the unit different in other ways. Also, once more, don't think the Act works with the Scoped because they both accomplish the same thing, and you are paying for the Scopes. In short, no one is going to pay for the Scopes when they can just save 'em and burn a Faith Point instead.

Also, Precision shot flamer is a little...dubious in terms of believability. Frankly, 5 meltaguns in an infiltrating squad is a bit much. For 200 points, you can basically nullify anything in the game short of Super Heavies with that kind of fire power 1st/2nd turn. You may want to limit it down to 2 and find another way to increase their threat. Again, I'm leaning back to giving their boltguns Rending, and having their Act make them Rend on a 5/6. This way, 33% of all hits will be auto wounding AP 2, as well auto-glance AV 10. If you roll well, Rending Boltguns can pen up to AV 12, glance up to AV 13. They keep their ability to decimate things first turn, pop boxes, and have some serious warding power, but not to the point of deleting an enemy Land Raider for 50 points cheaper. Still dead killy this way. At that point, you can keep the purchase for Scoped Boltguns as desired to have them act like 24" Snipers, but their main power will be the sheer lethality of their weapons.

Aside from the main conflict of Act & gear doing the same thing, there's also a matter of balance. Hi! I'm a Dark Apostle with a MURDER SWORD. I've decided your special snowflake HQ is the target of my MURDER SWORD. I'm sitting in a fat blob of fearless Cultists. I've officially ensured you won't bring your HQ anywhere on my side of the table (unless its Trollestine). Huh? What's that? Oh. 5 Meltagun shots Turn 1 that hit on 3+ and are all focused on me? Well, that's 140+ points deleted from my list. There will be MURDER fits thrown, and I wouldn't blame them. You essentially pay 200 points to ensure you will almost always get First Blood and/or Warlord.

Food for thought.

I think that four (or more) specials in a squad should be limited to Dominions, since it's kind of their signature thing. I hadn't noticed that part of the rules.

The trouble with Rending is that they then become Retributors by another name, but better. This is the biggest problem with trying to homebrew sisters - coming up with a power that hasn't been covered already without making something lackluster.

I say that the way to fix the scoped boltgun / precision shot dilemma is simply to make the scoped bolter the default weapon. Lots of Sisters models already have scoped bolters, and even scoped storm bolters!

Then, of course, you can fix the 'meltadoom' problem by saying that only models that already have Precision Shots get the "every shot is Precision" benefit - regular weapons just get Precision Shots on a 6+.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I think that four (or more) specials in a squad should be limited to Dominions, since it's kind of their signature thing. I hadn't noticed that part of the rules.

The trouble with Rending is that they then become Retributors by another name, but better. This is the biggest problem with trying to homebrew sisters - coming up with a power that hasn't been covered already without making something lackluster.

I say that the way to fix the scoped boltgun / precision shot dilemma is simply to make the scoped bolter the default weapon. Lots of Sisters models already have scoped bolters, and even scoped storm bolters!

Then, of course, you can fix the 'meltadoom' problem by saying that only models that already have Precision Shots get the "every shot is Precision" benefit - regular weapons just get Precision Shots on a 6+.

Agree on the Dominions bit. Their whole purpose is Scouting special weapon spam.

I know where you are getting at with the rending, but I think it speaks more to the fact that the Retributor's Act isn't what that unit needs. I do agree that making homebrew units is far more problematic when what's actually needed is a full on codex fix. Like I said though in a previous post, Retributor's Act needs to become Relentless, and Command Squad needs power weapons and a melee oriented Act while Celestians get something else. Anyway, the idea is solid, but it does require a reshifting in other places.

So if we're not willing to touch the rest of the codex, then sure, default Scoped Bolters and granting precision shots if you have the rule isn't so bad. Two special weapons limits abuse. 16 precision shot bolters will certainly put a dent in many ICs, but its not quite as deadly as precision meltas. Its a fair compromise all things considered.

You could limit their act of faith to their bolters. This would prevent infiltrating melta precise shot assassinations.

I might drop the master craft part of the scope, and just give them out for free to everyone in the Vigil squad.

As a free swap, let them swap the scoped bolter for a full sniper rifle. There are pros and cons to taking it, but I think it would make for a nice option.

All good points, thanks. I'll update the original post and contemplate how to implement further changes, but I'll hold off on actually wrong a revision until I've read the digital codex due out tomorrow.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the codex is out, only I can't download it on this side of the Atlantic yet. Sigh.

Well, I couldn't resist writing a little bit of fanfic about Novices -- no, dammit, not that kind, this isn't bloody 1d4chan:

“Ma’am? Ma’am? I’m having trouble with my armature, ma’am, I can’t get the boltgun to...”

“WRONG!”

The Sister Superior’s shout boomed like a bolt exploding. All the Novices whipped their heads around to look.......

Full story at Bolter B-Word Privileges.

I've made what I think is the final revision, based on the new digital Codex and your suggestions -- especially Clockwork & Nydus's repeated insistence that Bikers should be T4, dammit.

- Vigils (once Reapers) have a toned-down Act of Faith: Instead of making all shots Precision Shots, it just increases your chance of a Precision Shot by 1: i.e. Scoped Bolters and characters get precision shots on 5-6, other weapons that don't normally get precision shots get them on 6. I've also revised their fluff based on Nydus's cool ideas for how they communicate.
- Thrones are now T4 like other Bikers. Instead of +3" movement, they now have Skilled Rider. Finally, they cost more, 20 points.
- Novices' Act of Faith is re-renamed "Children's Crusade" and now provides Fearless.
- All three units' fluff has been revised to reflect the digital Codex, which includes a Novice in a warzone, while Vigils and Thrones now originate from the Sacred Rose and the Bloody Rose respectively.


Vigil Squad: 85 points (Elites)
Vigil WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++



Throne Squad: 100 points (Fast Attack)
Throne WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:8 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:8 Sv:3+/6++
Veteran Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

Costing the Thrones:


Novitiate Squad: 90 points (Troops)
Sororitas Novice WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:4+/6++
Mistress of Novices WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

A Scoped Bolter costs the same as a sniper rifle? There's something wrong there. The Sniper Rifle gets Rending and Pinning as well for those 5 points, and it's still replacing a bolter on the relevant squad.

Good point. I was basing it on Storm Bolter, since it is not Heavy 1, but Storm Bolters are ludicrously overpriced....

Sniper rifle pricing is really screwy at the moment, actually: Space Marine Scouts get them for one point!

The tricky bit is I don't want just to give them Sniper Rifles, since I want to keep them mobile -- hence something Rapid Fire instead of Heavy -- and distinct from the Astartes and the Guard.

The scoped bolter as-is is 24" S:4 AP:5 Rapid Fire with master-crafted & precision shots for five points. We could make cheaper or make it more powerful: add, say Rending and/or Range 30"?

Range 30 doesn't fit... I'd say give it a Preferred Enemy type bonus and drop it to 3 points/model.

I'd throw in a few thoughts of my own, if that's okay. Or even if it's not okay.....

The Vigil/Reaper squad strikes me as being slightly out of character for the Sisters (at least in terms of their fluff). As somebody who doesn't play, I realize that opinion is worth rather less than the electrons used to store it, but that remains the case. Given how the SoBs are depicted in the fiction, I would expect them to disdain stealth, and focus much more on eliminating heavy defensive emplacements.

Because of that, I would eliminate stealth entirely (it doesn't seem to fit the Sisters' character anyway), and have them focus upon being able to maneuver or react to enemy fire. In short, make them into ultra-heavy skirmishers, not snipers. This will (I think) retain their usefulness as long-range threats, without detracting from the overall flavor of the SoB.

SoB Bikers:
I can't argue with the math, not knowing enough about it, but I like the concept here: fast attacker units that focus upon the initial skirmishing and the early removal of enemy defenses. Presumably they would act as a sort of heavy fire support for Seraphim squads, which would probably make them very useful indeed.

Novitiate Squad:
Should the Sacrificial Lambs rule be something closer to what happens when the Tau bring one of their Ethereals to the field? This might give a greater sense of how seriously the Sisters would have to believe the situation to be before sending their novices to fight a pitched battle. Plus, having nearby Sisters fight even more fiercely to protect the Novitiate Squad would seem to fit the circumstances better than improving their fighting skills after death (when said Sisters would probably blame themselves).

Thanks for your thoughts, which are definitely okay.

1) Vigils (formerly Reapers): I personally like the idea of scarily quiet Sisters as an elite. Infiltrator and Stealth (via camo cloaks in the current incartation) certainly out them outside the mainstream of the army, but in an equal and opposite way to Repentia's close-combat-only wargear and weaponized nudity. They're the anti-Repentia, the other extreme of what a Sister can be, with the well-balanced Celestians in the center.

2) I think you may have thought out the tactics for these bikes more thoroughly than I have. Certainly I hadn't thought of them as providing special weapons support to Seraphim. Interesting. Now if they could maybe carry wargear to make the Seraphim's Deep Strike not scatter, rather like Marine Scouts with their teleport homers....

3) Ethereals are fascinating units, and I like that kind of bubble-of-buffing for HQ units, but I don't think it quite fits the Novices: they need protection, they don't bolster the line.

For everyone who's been debating what Novices should look like on the battlefield -- or if they should even be there -- I've writtena short story describing a typical SNAFU involving Novices in a war zone.