New Sisters of Battle Codex Tactica

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**jeffersonian000**

I'm thinking on bubble-wrapping a couple of Knights with Seraphim, rather than trying to kill a Knight with them.

SJ

**SisterSydney**

That's pretty clever. The Seraphim can use their jump packs to keep up (which foot infantry can't), their hand flamers to Wall of Death any infantry that charges them, and their Hit & Run to get out of melee so the Knight can Stomp the enemy.

**jeffersonian000**

SisterSydney wrote:
That's pretty clever. The Seraphim can use their jump packs to keep up (which foot infantry can't), their hand flamers to Wall of Death any infantry that charges them, and their Hit & Run to get out of melee so the Knight can Stomp the enemy.

Exactly.

SJ

**ncshooter426**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm thinking on bubble-wrapping a couple of Knights with Seraphim, rather than trying to kill a Knight with them.

SJ

Yep - save movement distance, able to keep folks off of the big guy w/ 5 flamer templates (assuming Celestine is with them). That's my plan anyway

As for the shield arc - the way vehicles do it is going to be hard to apply to this walker. it has no clear defined sides. I was trying to figure out how on a long board los is going to work, and what (clearly) defines the front/sides of the walker. On top of that, aside from rolling a 6 on the dmg table on a pen, you're likely just going to glance it to death if you manage to bypass the shields.

I rolled a few tests w/ my Jaeger (Striker Eureka baby!) standing in as a knight. The best I was able to do was 10 shots, 8 hits, 5 unsaved, 2 glances and 1 pen with no additional damage from table (no 6's for explode). So 3hp down, 3 to go after a full turn of all 3 exorcists nailing it (w/ no cover).
Best I could do in response was always 2 hits (scatter avg 4" w/ LoS, still able to hit) but almost no pens due to str8 shots hitting the F13. So, the cannon is definitely not an anti-tank weapon...but holy terra did it wipe some foot troops off the board. The melta was better at taking down the tanks (of course) but the blast still feels weird on a melta weapon. While the S9 Ap1 is nice, only having the single hit still sucks - would really hurt a group of termies though.

**evildrcheese**

Ovion wrote:
Or take your own Knight, AND MEET IN GLORIOUS BATTLE!

Excellent. Have an exalt.

I'm not going to bother with a knight, not right away anyway, I know some people at my club will be picking on up, so I'll see what they think of it's performance on the table before I commit to one. I'm more interested in the new Guard Dex, they are our only Battle Bros (well, we've got =I=..and SM if you take Red Hunters and a Inquisitor)

D

**SisterSydney**

ncshooter426 wrote:
rolled a few tests w/ my Jaeger (Striker Eureka baby!) standing in as a knight. The best I was able to do was 10 shots, 8 hits, 5 unsaved, 2 glances and 1 pen with no additional damage from table (no 6's for explode). So 3hp down, 3 to go after a full turn of all 3 exorcists nailing it (w/ no cover)

Yeah, if you really want to take down a Knight (or anything else), you can't afford a set piece shooting match against an equal points value of Exorcists, you have to mass fire and take it down completely before it can grind you down. Against a Knight-Paladin with its long range gun, I'd be firing all three Exorcists plus scouting melta Dominions plus anything else I could muster on turn one. A Knight-Errant has "only" 36" range so you might gamble on reserves rolls letting your Dominions outflank it as it comes up the board.

Conversely, as you say -- though I didn't realize it until you said it -- the lack of ranged Destroyer weapons makes Knights an extremely inefficient way of killing vehicles: At best they get one penetrating hit per shot, just like any other vehicle, and not many shots. Sounds like their role is frying heavy infantry and light vehicles en masse while something else in their army goes after the tanks that are going after the Knight. So if the Knight is on the Sisters' side, those 3 Exorcists with their 3d6 S8 AP1 shots per turn to take out enemy armoured vehicles are going to be the Knights' best friend, keeping it alive so it can provide the Sisters those lovely blast templates they can't get with their own Codex.

So, yay, tactical Rock Paper Scissors.

And no dammit we do not counter the enemy Knight by marching our own up the board to meet it chainsword-to-chainsword in GLORIOUS COMBAT, that is tactically idiotic, what kind of militarily unrealistic, testosterone-fueled fantasy do you think we're..... oh.

**war**

If you find yourself in a fair fight... Your tactics suck

**ncshooter426**

SisterSydney wrote:
ncshooter426 wrote:
rolled a few tests w/ my Jaeger (Striker Eureka baby!) standing in as a knight. The best I was able to do was 10 shots, 8 hits, 5 unsaved, 2 glances and 1 pen with no additional damage from table (no 6's for explode). So 3hp down, 3 to go after a full turn of all 3 exorcists nailing it (w/ no cover)

Yeah, if you really want to take down a Knight (or anything else), you can't afford a set piece shooting match against an equal points value of Exorcists, you have to mass fire and take it down completely before it can grind you down. Against a Knight-Paladin with its long range gun, I'd be firing all three Exorcists plus scouting melta Dominions plus anything else I could muster on turn one. A Knight-Errant has "only" 36" range so you might gamble on reserves rolls letting your Dominions outflank it as it comes up the board.

Conversely, as you say -- though I didn't realize it until you said it -- the lack of ranged Destroyer weapons makes Knights an extremely inefficient way of killing vehicles: At best they get one penetrating hit per shot, just like any other vehicle, and not many shots. Sounds like their role is frying heavy infantry and light vehicles en masse while something else in their army goes after the tanks that are going after the Knight. So if the Knight is on the Sisters' side, those 3 Exorcists with their 3d6 S8 AP1 shots per turn to take out enemy armoured vehicles are going to be the Knights' best friend, keeping it alive so it can provide the Sisters those lovely blast templates they can't get with their own Codex.

So, yay, tactical Rock Paper Scissors.

And no dammit we do not counter the enemy Knight by marching our own up the board to meet it chainsword-to-chainsword in GLORIOUS COMBAT, that is tactically idiotic, what kind of militarily unrealistic, testosterone-fueled fantasy do you think we're..... oh.

Yeppers. Best I can tell, the knight (w/ BC) is best at laying down serious hurt with S8 5" pie plates on infantry and light vehicles. Of course, if it manages to get into CC with a tank - that's one dead tank

Leaving it unguarded is a bad idea, as is ditching your anti-tank/hard hitting excorcists in the backline. Still think spearheading is the best approach - w/ flanks of dominators+seraphim for bubble. Could also march an inquisitor behind it w/ the re-roll primus skill... mwahahah. I hope to experiment with some tactics soon, but I have a feeling there will be many eyes on the big walker and not the other girls on the field - which is a good thing. Let the sisters march up and hold objectives, or get within roasting range... mmMMmmmmm... dead xeno/heretics.

**evildrcheese**

If you're gonna take an inqusitor to walk behind it you should roll the the divinarion table for ingores cover before defaulting on prescience, 36" S8 ap1 large blast with ignores cover! Why? Because feth you, that's why. Of course you'll only get it 1 out of six games, but those games will be stupid funny.

D

**bogalubov**

Perfect timing only works on the psyker's unit. So you can't cast it on a vehicle.

**BlackTalos**

Talking about knight tactics within AS armies: do not forget they have relentless.

That means Move-shoot, move-shoot until something is within 12", and then just charge (enemy vehicles let's say) so you get that extra distance across the board.
With a bit of luck, something stays alive for 1 combat phase, and you walk off to repeat on your turn =P

**Ovion**

Walkers are vehicles, and so don't care about that sort of thing anyway.

It's possibly so they can shoot then assault though.

**Mavnas**

So, just realized a thing. That large S9 melts template has a less than 50% chance of killing a Rhino out in the open.

**evildrcheese**

bogalubov wrote:
Perfect timing only works on the psyker's unit. So you can't cast it on a vehicle.

awwwwww :(

D

**BlackTalos**

Ovion wrote:
Walkers are vehicles, and so don't care about that sort of thing anyway.

It's possibly so they can shoot then assault though.

But walkers can be locked in combat right? I though i read Reaver titans could be CC locked? =P

Although i also vaguely remember a rule that evn when in CC they can still be shot at, right?

Just pointing out that things like baneblades cannot move in the Assault phase whereas Knights could get up to 12" extra movement (roll those 6s lol)

**Ovion**

~~Last I checked Super-Heavies / Gargantuans can only be locked by other Super-Heavies / Gargantuans.~~
Apparently this isn't a thing anymroe (at least that I can find in my Apoc book... )
That's both wierd and makes little/no sense... how can ant-like people hold up a GIANT walking weapons platform? O-o

**BlackTalos**

yeah i know, but it's apparently how the new Escalation book words it i believe (will need to check my copy tonight)

Only way to put it: Yes they can lock it, but one stomp attack and unless they are VERY strong they would die anyway lol (basically the rule is there if a CC unit actually manages to survive, they get the advantage of locking it...)

Also if something like a demon prince locks you knight/ SH walker, it does kinda make sense =P

**SisterSydney**

Ovion wrote:
~~Last I checked Super-Heavies / Gargantuans can only be locked by other Super-Heavies / Gargantuans.~~
Apparently this isn't a thing anymroe (at least that I can find in my Apoc book... )
That's both wierd and makes little/no sense... how can ant-like people hold up a GIANT walking weapons platform? O-o

"Aaaaaah! They're crawling up my legs, they're crawling up my legs, get them off get them OFF GET THEM OFF AAAAAAAAH!"

**Brother Michael**

With nids I could imagine this huge swarm of them just moving up to clompletely overwhelm a superheavy. Imperial guardsmen climbing up an warlord titan from the outside though...

**Mr Morden**

Brother Michael wrote:
With nids I could imagine this huge swarm of them just moving up to clompletely overwhelm a superheavy. Imperial guardsmen climbing up an warlord titan from the outside though...

Thats exactly what happens to Titans in various fluff examples - and not jsut to Nids, its why the Legions have Skitarii

**SisterSydney**

From my incomplete 40K movie script, an Imperial Guard infantry attack on a traitor Emperor Titan:

Spoiler:

**Mavnas**

BlackTalos wrote:
yeah i know, but it's apparently how the new Escalation book words it i believe (will need to check my copy tonight)

Only way to put it: Yes they can lock it, but one stomp attack and unless they are VERY strong they would die anyway lol (basically the rule is there if a CC unit actually manages to survive, they get the advantage of locking it...)

Also if something like a demon prince locks you knight/ SH walker, it does kinda make sense =P

Or you could lock it with priests and crusaders. Re rollable 3++ goes a long way against stomp. I could use my seraphim. Last could games taught me that they are immune to anything AP3 or better with their amazing 6++ (and then promptly roll like crap vs enemy bolters).

**ncshooter426**

bogalubov wrote:
Perfect timing only works on the psyker's unit. So you can't cast it on a vehicle.

You sure? I could have sworn you selected an allied unit, not it's unit. Being limited to the psykers own unit sounds extremely limiting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Michael wrote:
With nids I could imagine this huge swarm of them just moving up to clompletely overwhelm a superheavy. Imperial guardsmen climbing up an warlord titan from the outside though...

I seem to remember some oddball rule about not being able to assault something you had no chance in actually hurting. Swarm of gaunts could never bring enough damage to the unit to actually threaten it, so it would just keep on chuggin' through them.
Edit: Found it - it's the charge rule. If a unit has no chance of inflicting damage, it can't charge.

**SisterSydney**

Also, I, um, already homebrewed an Adepta Sororitas variant of the Knight. It's, um, a giant Seraphim that Deep Strikes? Yeah.

**BlackTalos**

Mavnas wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
yeah i know, but it's apparently how the new Escalation book words it i believe (will need to check my copy tonight)

Only way to put it: Yes they can lock it, but one stomp attack and unless they are VERY strong they would die anyway lol (basically the rule is there if a CC unit actually manages to survive, they get the advantage of locking it...)

Also if something like a demon prince locks you knight/ SH walker, it does kinda make sense =P

Or you could lock it with priests and crusaders. Re rollable 3++ goes a long way against stomp. I could use my seraphim. Last could games taught me that they are immune to anything AP3 or better with their amazing 6++ (and then promptly roll like crap vs enemy bolters).

That works well against stomp, yeah, but what about the 4 D weapon hits that come first? I'd say 4 dead crusaders. and unless you have a unit of 5+ crusaders and a priest (which i don't think fits in any army build) that were not shot at in the first few turns before they actually get in CC, then the Knight would just use it's 12" move and simply avoid that unit (as it will do with many others).

Do not forget either that Knights are I4, so anything relatively able in CC could be a threat simply at I5 with a strong attack.

**Mythantor**

BlackTalos wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
yeah i know, but it's apparently how the new Escalation book words it i believe (will need to check my copy tonight)

Only way to put it: Yes they can lock it, but one stomp attack and unless they are VERY strong they would die anyway lol (basically the rule is there if a CC unit actually manages to survive, they get the advantage of locking it...)

Also if something like a demon prince locks you knight/ SH walker, it does kinda make sense =P

Or you could lock it with priests and crusaders. Re rollable 3++ goes a long way against stomp. I could use my seraphim. Last could games taught me that they are immune to anything AP3 or better with their amazing 6++ (and then promptly roll like crap vs enemy bolters).

That works well against stomp, yeah, but what about the 4 D weapon hits that come first? I'd say 4 dead crusaders. and unless you have a unit of 5+ crusaders and a priest (which i don't think fits in any army build) that were not shot at in the first few turns before they actually get in CC, then the Knight would just use it's 12" move and simply avoid that unit (as it will do with many others).

Do not forget either that Knights are I4, so anything relatively able in CC could be a threat simply at I5 with a strong attack.

Remember it has to hit first so thats 2 hits then a 1/6 chance of doing zip.

**BlackTalos**

true, so an average of 2 crusaders down with a chance of escape...
so 3 Crusaders units with priest might just have a chance, but I still would not count on it =P

**Mavnas**

BlackTalos wrote:
true, so an average of 2 crusaders down with a chance of escape...
so 3 Crusaders units with priest might just have a chance, but I still would not count on it =P

The stomp only has a 7/27th chance of killing crusaders.

**BlackTalos**

What about it's Melta large blast (or cannon), S10 hammer of wrath and 5 D weapons attacks? But yes, i did say i agreed that they would actually be rather decent =)

[Edit] The crusaders with priest.
being decent.
cause we know the knights are...

**Mavnas**

BlackTalos wrote:
What about it's Melta large blast (or cannon), S10 hammer of wrath and 5 D weapons attacks? But yes, i did say i agreed that they would actually be rather decent =)

[Edit] The crusaders with priest.
being decent.
cause we know the knights are...

The melta large blast has about 40% chance of popping their rhino assuming no cover or 6+ cover. (About 50% if you grab the inquisition version with no AoF). The being single shot makes it not so great.