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 pretre wrote:
You get to choose when to use the rending though... I mean, do what makes you happy, but I'd rather have and potentially not use rending than have an expensive FNP squad and a useless canoness. If you really like survivability more than rending, just take more models in the retributor squad. How many more can you get in the squad for the same cost? Or put them in a bastion or Imperial Bunker. Either one probably still keeps the squad cheaper than command and canoness and makes them a lot more survivable.

The only downside of rets is that they aren't Exos. The downside of a command squad is that they aren't rets, are more expensive than rets and saddle you with a milquetoast hq.

Which is why they work well in the example above:
- Dialogus over FNP: Same price, much more gain
- "useless" Canoness sits on the Quad Gun: At least her BS5 is on a 4-shot S7 weapon that loves it.

That removes both "downsides", so all you have left is the benefits

ninepaces wrote:
Re Heavy Support:

What are people's thoughts on a retributor squad with 4 heavy bolters over a 3rd exorcist? If I have no designated anti air or allies at all is the 3rd exorcist too important to drop?

Edit: Is it worth running HBs at all (as a command squad) in a mech list?

I think HBs can be very handy against massed infantry targets (I'm looking at you Orks and IG) or soft vehicles like Dark Eldar but any tough nuts really need the Exorcists or you are left trying to get close up and personal with meltas.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The only downside of rets is that they aren't Exos. The downside of a command squad is that they aren't rets, are more expensive than rets and saddle you with a milquetoast hq.

Which is why they work well in the example above:
- Dialogus over FNP: Same price, much more gain
- "useless" Canoness sits on the Quad Gun: At least her BS5 is on a 4-shot S7 weapon that loves it.

That removes both "downsides", so all you have left is the benefits

ninepaces wrote:
Re Heavy Support:

What are people's thoughts on a retributor squad with 4 heavy bolters over a 3rd exorcist? If I have no designated anti air or allies at all is the 3rd exorcist too important to drop?

Edit: Is it worth running HBs at all (as a command squad) in a mech list?

I typically run a fully mech list, so I go with the third Exorcist over Rets. And honestly, I think the Exorcist is just better overall, but that just might be my experience with the Rets. Even if the Rets do rend, you're looking at only 1.5 rends in a 12-shot volley, which is nothing to write home about.

 GoonBandito wrote:
I normally run 2 Exorcists and 1 Heavy Bolter Ret squad (although I don't have a 3rd Exorcist anyway). The Ret's usually seem to do well enough to keep holding down a spot in my lists.

I dunno if I'd go so far to put another 4 HB's in a Command Squad though. It's not so much about having Rending or not, but more so than not really need another 4 HB's. I feel my anti-infantry firepower is covered enough by the BSS and Ret squad already. I'd run a Command Squad with 4 Multi Meltas or kitted out for melee before I'd run them with HB's.

I have tried RETs and just found them to be underwhelming to what an exorcist can do. Prior to this codex, when I could do it every turn, I thought it more of a fair comparison. But now, you get it once or you can spend 30ish extra points to pick up a simulcrum to get it twice.

I mean really. 12 shots. Hit with 9. So 1, maybe 2 rending hits? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying they are awful, but for me it is exorcists all the way.

Exorcists are way better in a mech list. HF Rets are actually better than HB now that you can get them a drop pod.

 pretre wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 pretre wrote:
The only downside of rets is that they aren't Exos. The downside of a command squad is that they aren't rets, are more expensive than rets and saddle you with a milquetoast hq.

Which is why they work well in the example above:
- Dialogus over FNP: Same price, much more gain
- "useless" Canoness sits on the Quad Gun: At least her BS5 is on a 4-shot S7 weapon that loves it.

That removes both "downsides", so all you have left is the benefits

10 Rets with 4 HB, Simulacrum - 170
5 Command Squad, 4 HB, FNP, Canoness - 175

So for your 5 more points, you get BS5 instead of BS4 for the quad, FNP on 8 Wounds vs 10 wounds straight up, no rending. I still don't see the benefit. As I said, no rending, more expensive, milquetoast HQ.

Heck, if you're looking for a cool bubble, do this:
6 Rets with 4 HB, Sim, Jacobus - 222

At least then, you've got more wounds than the Canoness, a big fearless/counter-attack bubble, another faith act, etc so on.

I'm talking about when you've bought the Command Squad WITH 4 HB Rets and a Bastion with Void shield

It's going to be about 400pts, but the 175 on Command+HB+Canoness is worth much much more than them standing behind an Aegis or for the same effect from within the bastion of just 2 Ret squads.

Also i said Dialogus over FNP = Replace the (IMO pointless FNP) with a much more useful "Bastion with Laud hailer".

So:
- BS5 Quad Gun
- Certain Double Rending (no need to pay for Vet, you're re-rolling that act...)
- 9 Heavy Bolters every Turn
- Rending Quad
- Massive Laud Hailer bubble

As for the "downsides":
- No more expensive (than 2 X Retributor squads)
- No milquetoast HQ (she's got 2 Rending turns, Interceptor at BS5 at flyers or skimmers)

But the real downsides:
- Expensive combo. Compare it to Imperial Knight Paladin. I think this does better.
- Snap Shooting most targets if no flyers, though she can "separate" from Retributors if needed.

[EDIT]: Found the list:

Bastion: Quad gun upgrade, Void generator upgrade = 150pts
5xRetributors, extra Retributor, 4xHeavy Bolters, Simularcum = 122pts
Canoness = 65pts
Celestian Command squad: 5xCelestians, upgrade to Sister Dialogus, 4 x Heavy Bolters = 115pts

Total = 452pts

I see what you're getting at. I still wouldn't field a second unit on top. The unit inside is fine and can run the quad. If I was going to run a unit on top, I definitely wouldn't run the SCS.

on another topic:

Some of my friends and I are going to play a campaign. Special characters aren't allowed.
We play 850 points due to the size of my friends kitchen table

I'll be versus Nids, IG, DE, DA.

My list for now:

HQ:
Canonness, book of st. lucius

Troops:
5 sisters, FL, HF, Rhino
5 sisters, FL, HF, Rhino

FA:
5 Doms, 4 melta's, rhino
5 Doms, 4 melta's, rhino

HS:
Exorcist
Exorcist

exactly 850 points

What do you guys think?

I wanted my cannoness cheap, She can earn stat and equipment upgrades during the campaign.

People still play SC not allowed? It's a good list otherwise.

Not a fan of the Book of Lucius... Have you had much use of it? Sounds like it could be useful....

I'd put a Storm bolter or Dozer blade on a dominion Rhino. Everyone forgets the Rhinos...

Only reason I would run a command squad would be to run a second quad gun or icarus. I feel they need rending to be worth it, as the heavy bolters are too expensive for what they do. However, if you already have a bastion with heavy bolters and a quad gun, and you want a second quad gun or icarus, then you can take an ADL and have a unit with 3+ armor, 4+cover and 5+ FNP to run the gun, gun which is T7, so they wont die immediately. Then having bolters so they can shoot at stuff while standing there is great. The only other option is to put on heavy melta on the command squad, which is great if anything comes close enough for them to actually use them.

Rending on bolters is great because that means they can hurt up to av14 vehicles, and with 15 bolter shots from a bastion that's about 2 6s. I run ammo store so they can reroll 1s, and I don't find the void shield worth it because enemies just ignore the bastion. I agree that you often shoot at stuff in cover, then rending is useless but then you can just chose not to use the act of faith that turn.

Exorcist is great, but doesn't have volume of fire. BS4 3,5 S8 AP 1 shots each turn compared to 15 BS5(-ish) S5 bolter shots and a BS4 S7 quad gun. Against air units you have at least 2 HB hits and 3 quad gun hits, which is scary enough to force a jink. So I think the bastion is good because it can deal with some things that the rest of the army can't. Besides, I think 3 exorcists is kinda boring fluff wise, so I like having some retributors because they look awsome (especially the melta/hf sisters!).

I like that list at 850. Very solid with a ton of firepower. I think at that level the Canoness is the best HQ choice. Celestine is too expensive when considering the lost firepower.

PanzerLeader wrote:
I like that list at 850. Very solid with a ton of firepower. I think at that level the Canoness is the best HQ choice. Celestine is too expensive when considering the lost firepower.

At 850? Celestine is a beat stick at low points levels. She is better than any other 70 points you could add to your list.

 pretre wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
I like that list at 850. Very solid with a ton of firepower. I think at that level the Canoness is the best HQ choice. Celestine is too expensive when considering the lost firepower.

At 850? Celestine is a beat stick at low points levels. She is better than any other 70 points you could add to your list.

But where do you strip those 70 points from to upgrade the canoness? Everything else is pretty minimal as it is. I'd prefer the resiliency of multiple units everywhere and 6 vehicles is hard to crack at that point level, especially two with AV13.

PanzerLeader wrote:
But where do you strip those 70 points from to upgrade the canoness? Everything else is pretty minimal as it is. I'd prefer the resiliency of multiple units everywhere and 6 vehicles is hard to crack at that point level, especially two with AV13.

HQ:
Celestine - 135

Troops:
5 sisters, FL, HF, Rhino - 115
5 sisters, FL, Fl, Rhino - 110

FA:
5 Doms, 4 melta's, rhino - 145
5 Seraphim, 2xHF - 95

HS:
Exorcist
Exorcist


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HQ:
Celestine - 135

Troops:
5 sisters, FL, HF, Rhino - 115
5 sisters,MM - 70

FA:
5 Doms, 4 melta's, rhino - 145
5 Doms, 4 melta's, rhino - 145

HS:
Exorcist
Exorcist


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Celestine
5 BSS with 2F in Rhino
14 BSS with 2F
5 Dom with 4 Melta in Rhino
Priest
Exo
Exo


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's just off the top of my head.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Celestine
5 BSS with 2 F, TL-MM Immo
5 BSS with 2 F, TL-MM Immo
5 Dom with 4 Melta, Rhino
Exo
5 Rets with 4 HB
Bastion

I think HB are going to become more useful with the increase in Armor 4 targets. Skitarii, Ad Mech, Eldar, and Necrons all have a large amount of units which have armor 4+.

Nobody runs Decurion around here any more. They switch to Immortals 'cause of how quicky their Warriors go down against me.

So how do your Sisters slaughter Necrons? Tips please!

 SisterSydney wrote:
So how do your Sisters slaughter Necrons? Tips please!

I've heard setting them on fire is rather in vogue this season

Space Marine Scouts in their new codex cost 10ppm for the same statline now as a Marine (bar a 4+ save)... Meanwhile Battle Sisters are 12ppm with clearly worse statline (less WS, S, T and Init). I assume the Scouts still don't get access to Special Weapons other than Sniper Rifles and a Heavy Bolter, but still seems BS to me, considering Scouts get ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Infilitrate, Scout and Move Through Cover...

One day our new plastic sister overlords will be release to set fire to the heathen galaxy.

Probably not today, certainly not tomorrow, but one day... one day...

 SisterSydney wrote:
So how do your Sisters slaughter Necrons? Tips please!

I also would like to know peoples strategies for this. I have very little luck fighting Necron, regardless of what army I play, but I'm interested in hearing what builds/strategies have worked for you guys thus far.

We still have our "chapter tactics." 6++ and Adamantium Will. They're not bad.

But yeah -1T, -1WS, -1S vs. marines should be more than 2 points.

Mavnas wrote:
We still have our "chapter tactics." 6++ and Adamantium Will. They're not bad.

But yeah -1T, -1WS, -1S vs. marines should be more than 2 points.

It's not even that we're still poorly costed against Marines anymore, it's that we're overcosted against *Scouts* now :(

Scouts still have a 4+ and no ability to bring meltaguns. They are a totally different unit.

SisterSydney wrote:So how do your Sisters slaughter Necrons? Tips please!

Heh, I didn't say we slaughtered Necrons, just that we slaughter Necron warriors. Still, its mostly through careful application of massed heavy bolter and heavy flamer fire that overwhelms their 4++/5++ in the same way that regular shooting overwhelms a regular army's 4+/5+ saves with small arms - once they're only rolling the same number of saves as any other army, they're significantly less scary.

GoonBandito wrote:Space Marine Scouts in their new codex cost 10ppm for the same statline now as a Marine (bar a 4+ save)... Meanwhile Battle Sisters are 12ppm with clearly worse statline (less WS, S, T and Init). I assume the Scouts still don't get access to Special Weapons other than Sniper Rifles and a Heavy Bolter, but still seems BS to me, considering Scouts get ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Infilitrate, Scout and Move Through Cover...

Marines keep getting cheaper, Sisters haven't yet. Used to be, they were 14 or 16 ppm - 2 or 4 points more than Sisters per model. Now Scouts are getting silly cheap and Marines reasonably priced for their abilities, we just have't caught up yet.

I'm probably more upset that now Space Marines can take squads of rending heavy bolters AND do it every turn (not even needing a leadership test!)

 GoonBandito wrote:
Space Marine Scouts in their new codex cost 10ppm for the same statline now as a Marine (bar a 4+ save)... Meanwhile Battle Sisters are 12ppm with clearly worse statline (less WS, S, T and Init). I assume the Scouts still don't get access to Special Weapons other than Sniper Rifles and a Heavy Bolter, but still seems BS to me, considering Scouts get ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Infilitrate, Scout and Move Through Cover...

The move from 4+ armor to 3+ armor alone is worth the 2 points when you look at everything that is AP4 base.

Yeah, of all our problems, comparison to scouts is not it.