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Murdock wrote:
Much of the feedback I've received centers around the lack of effort put into this army as compared to his peers at the event. I would disagree with this reasoning based on one point, I know there are plenty of players that and pay to have their armies built and painted for them. And rarely does anyone say that those armies don't belong at an event based on lack of effort, so that reasoning does not hold water in my mind.

Except the difference is that someone put effort into the army even if it isn't the person fielding it. Paying to have your army built and painted requires effort on the person you are contracting to do it.

@Murdock:

Appreciate getting to read your response in this thread. Thanks for the professional reply. Very much hope to get a midwest posse put together and head out to one of your events some time.

@pretre:

I don't see the point of trying to split hairs on that issue. I don't think "amount of effort" is some kind of useful metric, be it by the player or by his contracted painter. Otherwise the first Space Orks I painted would be the pinnacle of achievement. (Spoiler alert: They're terrible, and look like they were painted by a distracted 12 year old.)

 Red_Zeke wrote:
@pretre:

I don't see the point of trying to split hairs on that issue. I don't think "amount of effort" is some kind of useful metric, be it by the player or by his contracted painter. Otherwise the first Space Orks I painted would be the pinnacle of achievement. (Spoiler alert: They're terrible, and look like they were painted by a distracted 12 year old.)

Sure amount of effort is a useful metric. As others have already covered, we're not playing chess. This is a hobby, not just a game. I go to events to play games with cool people and engage in the hobby (painting, modelling, converting, etc). This pony army is much the same as me buying a bunch of prepainted army men and making an imperial guard army out of them. It is lazy and shows a disregard for the hobby aspects of the game and my opponents.

I have no problem with the theme; I have a problem with the execution. Any army that shows up and isn't wysywyg, is proxied off of children's toys and shows a lack of effort is going to be a real downer for the other participants. He could have easily modelled a good looking Pony Army that was WYSIWYG and showed effort, but he didn't. I would have much rather faced your poorly painted space orks than that.

Crossroads is one of the best of not the best tourney in the NE, My friends and I have been going since before it was called crossroads when it was held in the Soccer hall of fame.. which I vomited all over the outside of but I digress.. The army was fine, it was a laugh.. it was fun busting my club mates balls about losing to ponies. Would I have enjoyed playing it? not so much. Was I raging at the fact he was allowed to bring it.. no. In the end Crossroads is a blast and I and all the Shambling Horde will continue to clutter up the mid tables with mediocre play.

As much as it pains me to look at this army, if I were to face off against it and Chris was truly as good a guy as everyone said then I'd expect that the game itself would be a blast. He went all-out with his theme, and sounds like he was really trying to get everyone to have a good time with it. I've had some pretty bad games against fully painted armies, and at the end of the day I'm paying all that money to attend an event and have FUN. It's more fun to play a Brony-themed Bret army with a fun player than it is to play unprimed internet lists run by some whiny man-child.

@Murdock- Very professional reply. Earned a bunch of respect from me. Also where in the NE is Crossroads located?

Also, you would re-pair us if I didn't want to play the MLP theme. Then this is a non-issue to me. If I still had a shot at doing well, then I would (apparently) ask for a re-pairing and shake his hand for the creative shananigans.

Crossroads in held in the Elmira/Horseheads area of NY. It's about 2 hours south of both Rochester & Syracuse, and about 4 hours from the NY city metro area (add an hour if you have to travel through the city).

In terms of re-pairing, it may depend on your battle score at the time and how early in the event it is. The earlier in the event, the easier to find someone else that has both of your scores. Later on, we can probably still do it, but it gets harder.

So, basically the defense for this army of unpainted toys is "He asked us in advance and we made an exception for him".

I agree with Red and Pretre. A lot of effort goes into an army. This just files in the face of that effort and the actual event rules.

Warmaster Primus wrote:
Crossroads in held in the Elmira/Horseheads area of NY. It's about 2 hours south of both Rochester & Syracuse, and about 4 hours from the NY city metro area (add an hour if you have to travel through the city).

In terms of re-pairing, it may depend on your battle score at the time and how early in the event it is. The earlier in the event, the easier to find someone else that has both of your scores. Later on, we can probably still do it, but it gets harder.

Oh, it's not THAT far away. Could be something to bat around for a future event.

Well having the option to re-pair, especially with an extreme case such as this, is a good last resort to help ensure everyone has the best time possible. An escape clause would be just the right thing for someone who would be annoyed quickly with the pretty ponies (or whatever extreme shenanigans come up). My issue was always for the poor guy (hypothetical) who absolutely doesn't want to face Bre-pony-a, but also doesn't want to get screwed over in the tournament for not facing them (hypothetical lose-lose situation). But now this seems to be a non-issue, rock on .

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
So, basically the defense for this army of unpainted toys is "He asked us in advance and we made an exception for him".

I agree with Red and Pretre. A lot of effort goes into an army. This just files in the face of that effort and the actual event rules.

A commission painted army flies in the face of effort too. Yet nobody complains about them. All this is about is the fact that people have issues with MLP.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
So, basically the defense for this army of unpainted toys is "He asked us in advance and we made an exception for him".

I agree with Red and Pretre. A lot of effort goes into an army. This just files in the face of that effort and the actual event rules.

A commission painted army flies in the face of effort too. Yet nobody complains about them. All this is about is the fact that people have issues with MLP.

Hardly. That's just perceived victimisation.
You'd get the same opposition if you brought an entirely Toy Story-model army, an army made of all GI Joe-figurines, or an all LEGO army.

Some people buy into the image that (like them or not) GW has worked very hard to build. We play in a world that they have thought up and going too far astray from that world is seen the same as if you'd all of a sudden see Arya Stark of Game of Thrones ride into battle on Rainbow Dash, to defeat Joffrey, only to be stopped by a spell sent by Gargamel.

If you're a fan of Game of Thrones, the episode called "LET'S SMURF JOFFREY" right after the red wedding, would probably break the illusion for you.

Personally, I can see the fun in the army as long as it's one person doing it and not too often. But what if you go to a tournament and 6 of 10 come with their smurf/pony armies? It would ruin the warhammer scene.

And if you do decide to be that guy, then you need to keep your mind open enough that you may actually be offending some purists and be ready to accept that. Also be ready to accept that they are not wrong. You're the one stomping ponies into their hobby.
You're the one that has to accept the outcome of what you've decided to do.

So no, don't try to turn it into some kind of MLP martyrdom. That's not what this is. Bronies are not Rosa Parks and no one is asking them to ride at the back of the bus.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
So, basically the defense for this army of unpainted toys is "He asked us in advance and we made an exception for him".

I agree with Red and Pretre. A lot of effort goes into an army. This just files in the face of that effort and the actual event rules.

A commission painted army flies in the face of effort too. Yet nobody complains about them. All this is about is the fact that people have issues with MLP.

I already addressed that. A commission painted army had a significant amount of effort put into it. All of that army was assembled and painted well and is generally very nice to see across the table. Heck, my wife generally paints my characters in my armies. Obviously that is effort as well. Slapping pony toys on green bases and giving them banners is even less work than unprimered grey plastic.

If he had a lovingly converted brettonian army with a MLP theme, I might roll my eyes but I would appreciate the effort and the work involved. If he had a MLP toy army or a green army men army, I wouldn't.

I can tell you from experience that this took more effort than building an army from sprue to grey model.

The hours spent looking up which ponies were available were sizeable. I have musicians and standard bearers for each unit who are somehow related to the Champion of each unit. I had to find those ponies on eBay and purchase them. Sometimes I'd miss auctions. A large amount of time was spent looking up what was available to me.

Each banner was made in photoshop which took time to find each picture, adjust the image, print it, cut it out, cut and paint the pole and glue it to the pole.

Each base needed to be sanded down because they are 25mm and not the actual GW 23mmish.

I had a buddy of mine plastic craft both cannons which took several hours a piece. Each one of those had to be assembled and painted. Each cannon is equipped to fire an actual party popper by the way.

Did I make this army to skip out on painting Bretonnians? No. I wanted THIS army to look THIS way. In fact, I sold my larger Bretonnians for LESS than this army cost me to make. I have plenty of painted models and I love the hobby. I'm by no means a good painter, but I do my best.

To say there was no effort simply isn't true. To say I put forth less effort than most players is completely factual. However, none of those players suffered a 0 on their paint score. By bringing this army I conceded the opportunity to win Best Overall. I had no issue with this.

I expected people to love it or hate it. I did not expect people to hate it with such venom. I am glad that my opponents didn't request to be moved to another table. I think my attitude and demeanor spoke over anyone's disdain for the army. I feel bad for anyone who would walk away from the table, they clearly don't understand the magic of friendship. I would prefer, neigh, demand that they pony up and enjoy a good game of Warhammer.

Narenzade wrote:
I can tell you from experience that this took more effort than building an army from sprue to grey model.

The hours spent looking up which ponies were available were sizeable. I have musicians and standard bearers for each unit who are somehow related to the Champion of each unit. I had to find those ponies on eBay and purchase them. Sometimes I'd miss auctions. A large amount of time was spent looking up what was available to me.

Each banner was made in photoshop which took time to find each picture, adjust the image, print it, cut it out, cut and paint the pole and glue it to the pole.

Each base needed to be sanded down because they are 25mm and not the actual GW 23mmish.

I had a buddy of mine plastic craft both cannons which took several hours a piece. Each one of those had to be assembled and painted. Each cannon is equipped to fire an actual party popper by the way.

Did I make this army to skip out on painting Bretonnians? No. I wanted THIS army to look THIS way. In fact, I sold my larger Bretonnians for LESS than this army cost me to make. I have plenty of painted models and I love the hobby. I'm by no means a good painter, but I do my best.

To say there was no effort simply isn't true. To say I put forth less effort than most players is completely factual. However, none of those players suffered a 0 on their paint score. By bringing this army I conceded the opportunity to win Best Overall. I had no issue with this.

I expected people to love it or hate it. I did not expect people to hate it with such venom. I am glad that my opponents didn't request to be moved to another table. I think my attitude and demeanor spoke over anyone's disdain for the army. I feel bad for anyone who would walk away from the table, they clearly don't understand the magic of friendship. I would prefer, neigh, demand that they pony up and enjoy a good game of Warhammer.

Okay, so you spent a lot of effort buying them on eBay and researching pony types? I guess I had never really been considered a part of the hobby before... Painting, assembling, converting, researching ponies, eBaying...?

Either way, I'm not 'hating' your army. I just don't think that it shows respect for the hobby, the rules of the event or your opponent. That's my opinion though and obviously not the one of the organizers at the event.

Narenzade wrote:
....I feel bad for anyone who would walk away from the table, they clearly don't understand the magic of friendship. I would prefer, neigh, demand that they pony up and enjoy a good game of Warhammer.

Ohhh, and you were doing so well until you gave in to the puns there.

As a newer player, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as 'the integrity of the game'. Like I said, I've only been playing for two years and I've only been to four GTs. Lesson learned.

Narenzade wrote:
As a newer player, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as 'the integrity of the game'. Like I said, I've only been playing for two years and I've only been to four GTs. Lesson learned.

Where was 'integrity of the game' used in my response? I said lack of respect. Totally different thing.

Kudos on doing so well with a so called "soft book"

BUT that is crap that you would even think to bring prepainted toys to a tournment. Have you no honor? If it was me with my ogres across the table from you i would have picked up and left. Spending as much time as I am preparing for adepticon id be pissed as hell. Prepainted TOYS!!!!!!

I am all for creative and goofy but I could have literally gotten that army ready in an hour.

I think the best part of this whole thing is people getting SUPER MAD about it.

I laughed when I saw the ponies and I continued laughing as I read the thread.

And if you do decide to be that guy, then you need to keep your mind open enough that you may actually be offending some purists and be ready to accept that. Also be ready to accept that they are not wrong. You're the one stomping ponies into their hobby.

Their hobby? Isn't it his hobby as well to enjoy?

Also this thread is honestly amusing for all the amused anger.

Prepainted TOYS!!!!!!

..Which warhammer models are as well, if not the prepainted part.

It's interesting that people are using the words 'SUPER MAD' and 'rage' when I haven't really seen any rage. People have been discussing it pretty civilly.

 RatBot wrote:
I think the best part of this whole thing is people getting SUPER MAD about it.

I laughed when I saw the ponies and I continued laughing as I read the thread.

The word you are looking for is empathy. Each of these posters has put themselves into the opponents shoes and posted how they would feel, no one is SUPER MAD because there would be no point to that, people are concerned that a well established tourney would allow this kind of army and more importantly, the slope that doing so would lead to. Just saying now, I love MLP **Brony five** so that isn't the problem, and in a casual game I would of loved to play this army but in my opinion this kind of spoof/parody army isn't the kind of thing to be seen in tournaments. When doing entirely converted armies such as Exodites with Eldar using Wood Elf Conversions or Halflings using Empire rules you have to be very, very careful if you want to participate in tourneys due to strict WYSIWYG and painting standards. While I could tell easily who was who and why I doubt others would do so as well. There is so the fact of very little painting done (Did you paint banners? I'm not sure) so you cannot really complain about the painting score, if you want to proof me wrong simply post a picture of your best painted (By you) pony so we could decide if it was fair or not. This army I am not overly concerned about but if they let you in why not let that army of WW2 Figures play if they are put as much effort as you did. The main thing to remember is not everyone plays to win and many pay for the fluff, and having my Wood Elves riddling a wandering army of Equestrians would kind of break my suspension of disbelief.

I dunno, this sounded pretty mad to me:

BUT that is crap that you would even think to bring prepainted toys to a tournment. Have you no honor? If it was me with my ogres across the table from you i would have picked up and left. Spending as much time as I am preparing for adepticon id be pissed as hell. Prepainted TOYS!!!!!!

Have you no honor?

Thou hast besmirched the honor of the hallowed, lofty hobby of playing make-believe war with plastic elfmen! For shame, scoundrel!

I think you'll find that was satire.

What about you WYSIWYG stance on his Ponies? Apart from having his list in front of you at all times how would you know what weapons his heroes have? Not a singe pony has anything resembling a lance or he could of modelled on armour to justify 2+ save, but he left them as they are. I assume the Grail Knights are the Sparkly ones, because other then the Sparkles how could you tell them apart?

 pretre wrote:
I think you'll find that was satire.

I've read that post a few times and I see nothing to indicate that it was satire; in fact the edit reinforces the fact that it was sincere.

I don't know, maybe I just don't get the tournament mindset, but why is any one players' fun more or less important than any other players'? "Ruin this guy's fun cuz he's ruining my fun, my $10 are worth more than his $10". In fact, it sounds like pretty much no one at the tournament cared one whit about the ponies, so I'm not sure what point there is in going beyond "I think it's dumb and wouldn't want to play against it. I won't be going to any tournaments at that venue". But stuff like "The TO's should be ashamed!" and "have you no honor?" L O fethin' L.

Money talks, people who would probably never have attended that particular tourney in the first place walk. If it's really an issue, attendance will suffer in future tournaments run by those people and someone else will pick up the ball and ban stupid pony armies, nbd.

The WYSIWYG argument is one I can understand more than the "Bawww ponies in muh super-serious elfgame bawwww" argument.

 RatBot wrote:
why is any one players' fun more or less important than any other players'? "

One player's fun is no more important than another. The problem is when one player's fun is more important than multiple other player's fun.

 pretre wrote:

 RatBot wrote:
why is any one players' fun more or less important than any other players'? "

One player's fun is no more important than another. The problem is when one player's fun is more important than multiple other player's fun.

Except for the part where there was no indication that anyone else at the tournament was upset over it.

Uh oh, guys, better not allow silly armies at your tournament or else people on the internet who probably don't even live in the same time zone as you are gonna get mad.

If it's actually a problem, it'll fix itself when players who don't like silliness in their super-serious elfmans game start their own tournament.

For the record, if the situation was "Dude with pony army was not allowed to play in tourney, comes to internet to complain" my response would've been an equally bemused "their tourney, their call, tough cookies". My response certainly would not include insulting the integrity of either the player of the pony army or the organizers of the event.

 RatBot wrote:
Except for the part where there was no indication that anyone else at the tournament was upset over it.

Two things:
1) You are correct, but I was responding to this specific statement "why is any one players' fun more or less important than any other players'? "" hence my use of quotes.
2) No one said anything. That is different than not being upset over it. Players have a tendency to let things slide or not bring them up so as not to cause waves. This is especially true of events with soft scores of any kind. It is the TOs/judges responsibility to enforce the rules that they post for their event, not the participants.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RatBot wrote:
My response certainly would not include insulting the integrity of either the player of the pony army or the organizers of the event.

The insulting 'omg' responses are certainly the minority, although you keep flogging them like they are the majority.

Whoops, screwed up the quotes....

The insulting 'omg' responses are certainly the minority, although you keep flogging them like they are the majority.

You know what? That's fair enough. I was simply expressing my amusement at them.

I just think the whole thing is silly. Literally, the whole thing. From the army to the minority of people upset at the army.

Two things:
1) You are correct, but I was responding to this specific statement "why is any one players' fun more or less important than any other players'? "" hence my use of quotes.
2) No one said anything. That is different than not being upset over it. Players have a tendency to let things slide or not bring them up so as not to cause waves. This is especially true of events with soft scores of any kind. It is the TOs/judges responsibility to enforce the rules that they post for their event, not the participants.

Also fair enough, but it'll be a self-correcting issue if (when) tournament attendance drops, which will admittedly be harmful in the short term, but will probably resolve itself in the long term.