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No, they wouldn't. There are several studio Chapters of Space Marines who worship the Emperor as a god.

I think its been confirmed that space marine who worship the big E are regarded as "fanatics" by the other astartes.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
All they have to know for Leman Russ to be known as more than just "a smelly noisy tank" is that they are heros of humanity.

So, you are saying that typical imperial citizen know that there was a hero named Leman Russ, but cannot say anything about his life, have no idea that he was not human, and are completely oblivious of the fact the is in any way linked to the space wolves.
Well, that is a possibility, yes;

Leman Russ is in the Space Wolves' battle cry so the chances of a civilian not knowing his connection to the wolves is rather slim (and the civilian knows about the wolves in the first place because Logan is beloved across the Imperium). However, yes, it is true that a citizen does not need to know the finer details of his life (though odds are they'll get some version of it, inaccurate or not) or that he wasn't fully human (though odds are many will venerate him as a demi-god anyways). What matters is that he's known as a hero, and for the sake of the original topic, connected to the Space Wolves (since popularity of the wolves is the original argument that led to this).

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TiamatRoar wrote:
Given that the primarchs are second only to the Emperor himself when it comes to the origins of the Imperium

Reference needed. I would certainly think the Ecclesiarchy would place Sebastian Thor and Fatidicus above the Primarch. I mean, half of them joined Chaos, how holy does that makes them ?

Reference needed. I would certainly think the Ecclesiarchy would place Sebastian Thor and Fatidicus above the Primarch. I mean, half of them joined Chaos, how holy does that makes them ?

Given that the Ecclesiarchy are based on a book Lorgar wrote and later admitted was wrong. Given that the Imperium is really just the left overs of the conquest made by both the loyalist and heretic primarchs that the Church people and High Lords really just usurped.

The modern Imperial Creed is not based on Lorgar's book. The whole Thorian Reformation saw to that.

Yes, Sebastian Thor is an in-universe analog of Martin Luther. What of it?

Every time I see Space Wolves arrayed on the table across from my armored company, my Company Commander mutters "Bloody heretics" under his breath before ordering the cannonade to begin.

Every. Time.

Every time I see Space Wolves arrayed on the table across from my armored company, my Company Commander mutters "Bloody heretics" under his breath before ordering the cannonade to begin.

Every. Time.

The Imperial Guard Guard quite like the Space Wolves for helping them prevent casualties, being the first in any attack and I imagine their are at least rumors about what happened on Armageddon.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Every time I see Space Wolves arrayed on the table across from my armored company, my Company Commander mutters "Bloody heretics" under his breath before ordering the cannonade to begin.

Every. Time.

The Imperial Guard Guard quite like the Space Wolves for helping them prevent casualties, being the first in any attack and I imagine their are at least rumors about what happened on Armageddon.

I assume then that you speak for every Guard regiment in the entire galaxy? Every single one? Even the ones that the Inquisitorial fleet brought along with it to the Fang when the Fang shot them all out of the sky?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Every time I see Space Wolves arrayed on the table across from my armored company, my Company Commander mutters "Bloody heretics" under his breath before ordering the cannonade to begin.

Every. Time.

The Imperial Guard Guard quite like the Space Wolves for helping them prevent casualties, being the first in any attack and I imagine their are at least rumors about what happened on Armageddon.

Actually no. The whole point of the purges was to ensure that word of the corruption and daemons did not get out. All the Wolves' intervention did was ensure that more people had to be sacrificed for the the need to stop potential Chaos corruption. Pretty much because of the Wolves' actions were even larger numbers purged than were originally planned. So yeah...good job, Wolves?

So yeah...when those transports got away, the Inquisition just widened its cleansing. But hey, what's a few worlds' Exterminatus-ing to preserve a luxurious and self-serving sense of 'honor' right?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Every time I see Space Wolves arrayed on the table across from my armored company, my Company Commander mutters "Bloody heretics" under his breath before ordering the cannonade to begin.

Every. Time.

The Imperial Guard Guard quite like the Space Wolves for helping them prevent casualties, being the first in any attack and I imagine their are at least rumors about what happened on Armageddon.

There were no survivors of the activities on Armageddon on the part of the Imperial Guard, or any others slated for termination leaving the planet. The Inquisition tracked every ship and either destroyed them on the far end of their Warp Jump, or committed Exterminatus on the planet or space-born facility they stopped at.

Actually no. The whole point of the purges was to ensure that word of the corruption and daemons did not get out. All the Wolves' intervention did was ensure that more people had to be sacrificed for the the need to stop potential Chaos corruption. Pretty much because of the Wolves' actions were even larger numbers purged than were originally planned. So yeah...good job, Wolves?

I'm pretty sure in Emperor Gift they mentioned that the purge had failed. Even a Grey Knight said it was a failure.

So yeah...when those transports got away, the Inquisition just widened its cleansing. But hey, what's a few worlds' Exterminatus-ing to preserve a luxurious and self-serving sense of 'honor' right?

I'll never understand how the SW's forced the Inquisition to murder those worlds, the Inquisition and Grey Knights did'nt get their way,, so they had a galactic tantrum.

And PLEASE no Imperial larping" NO THEY MUST NOT KNOW ABOUT CHAOSSSS NNOOOOO KILL EVERYONE TO PRESERVE THE SECRETS.

And PLEASE no Imperial larping" NO THEY MUST NOT KNOW ABOUT CHAOSSSS NNOOOOO KILL EVERYONE TO PRESERVE THE SECRETS.

That's why they did it.

The "goals" of the Space Wolves, that is, the saving of those people, ended up being a total failure, and got even more people (people actually innocent of any involvement in the Armageddon conflict) killed because of their actions.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
And PLEASE no Imperial larping" NO THEY MUST NOT KNOW ABOUT CHAOSSSS NNOOOOO KILL EVERYONE TO PRESERVE THE SECRETS.

Why can't we say this? That's exactly the reason. It's like me saying:

Why must we eat food? And please no human larping "NO WE CANNOT SURVIVE WITHOUT THE FOODS."

What you demand we cannot use as a reason is exactly the reason.

And from the same source it says that even more worlds were doomed to destruction because of the Space Wolves' actions.

And yeah, it was the SW's complete failure if you look at it like this:

Goal - Save the lives of Guardsmen and civilians who fought with them

Reality - Those people died, and a whole bunch more as well

Your not getting the arguement, the Inquisitions reaction is thier own, not forced on them by the wolves, they could have just folded and let them get away.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Your not getting the arguement, the Inquisitions reaction is thier own, not forced on them by the wolves, they could have just folded and let them get away.

Right, which would likely have lead to the spread of the most insidious, corrupting, and potentially species-exterminating force that humanity has ever faced.

Good plan.

EDIT: In fact, I'm not sure you understand.

The citizens, and especially soldiers, on Armageddon were confronted by what amounts to the powers of Hell, and not just some random daemon-infestation, but a full-scale planetary invasion led by one of the Princes of Hell himself, and accompanied by a warpstorm of a scale almost unheard of.

Simply being in the area of such reality-destroying events can plant the seed of Chaos in one's soul, and so it is a sad necessity that they must be killed.

After all, some humans must die so that humanity may endure.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Your not getting the arguement, the Inquisitions reaction is thier own, not forced on them by the wolves, they could have just folded and let them get away.

The Inquisition does not fold. It has a duty, handed to them by the God-Emperor himself, to root out corruption and stop its spread wherever it may be found. They do what they must to ensure this edict. It's an unfortunate reality of the setting that this often means the deaths of many thousands of people, but the Inquisition cannot afford to be lenient. Mercy is the sin of the foolish.

The purge was a failure because maybe one or two ships slipped through the net and off the radar. Failure is what happens when your mission objectives are "kill them all!" and one target survives.

That still means that hundreds of worlds had to be destroyed when the ships that could be found were eventually tracked down.

As for the Sisters and the Marines arguing over philosophical differences... the Marines don't want the galaxy returned to a secular existence. That's a fallacy brought on by assuming that nothing has changed between the Horus Heresy novels, where the Marines were being lied to, and the 41st millenium, where they know damn well that the chaos gods exist.

Marines are not gnostic atheists as Ironclad believes. They are agnostic theists. They are aware of the existence of gods. They just want nothing to do with them. The vast majority of Marines are also full aware that the Ecclesiarchy is the only thing holding the majority of the Imperium together, and therefore that it can't be destroyed for political reasons.

Otherwise, the Ecclesiarchy would have been forcibly disbanded after the Reign of Blood, when there were four Astartes chapter masters present at the trial of Sebastian Thor, where the fate of the Ecclesiarchy as an institution was decided. Or, failing that, when Calgar marched his fifty chapters on Terra for whatever game he was playing at. He had fifty thousand Marines and an invitation into the council chambers, for crying out loud, if he'd wanted he could have killed all thirteen High Lords of Terra and declared himself Emperor Regent if he'd wanted to - forcing the Ecclesiarchy to start preaching the Imperial Truth would have been childs play to him if he hadn't realised what a mind-bogglingly stupid idea it was.

Face it: Astartes and Sororitas are the sons and daughters of the Emperor respectively, and just like blood siblings, while they may squabble over minor differences of opinion, when it comes down to the wire, they will stand back to back against fog, fire and 'fall.

 Psienesis wrote:
So the Average Joe probably doesn't know wtf a "Primarch" is, but he knows that Russ was a Space Marine badass who walked beside the God-Emperor as a son.

Do you mean that he was a 10 meters tall giant that rode a similarly gigantic wolf into space to fight 50 meter talls ork big bosses while only wearing some fur loin cloth ?

TiamatRoar wrote:
Leman Russ is in the Space Wolves' battle cry so the chances of a civilian not knowing his connection to the wolves is rather slim

Do you realize that the chance for a civilian to have ever seen the space wolves doing battle are likely way less than 0,0000000000001% ? I means, if I added the right number of zero right, you can expect about one civilian having seen the wolves do battle when you consider one hundred thousand billions civilians. Our planet contain 6 billions, most planets of the Imperium have never been visited by the wolves during the last human lifetime, and even on the planet they did, most civilians were not really hanging in on the battlefield.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Thor doesn't have a national holiday (that we know of). Sanguinus does.

Not enforced by the Ecclesiarchy.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Statues of primarchs come up in stories more often than statues of Thor do.

Have you anything comparable to this ?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Given that the Ecclesiarchy are based on a book Lorgar wrote and later admitted was wrong.

Except the Ecclesiarchy is not base upon the Lectitio Divinatus. It is based upon Fatidicus teachings. So, game over, you can try again .

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Given that the Imperium is really just the left overs of the conquest made by both the loyalist and heretic primarchs that the Church people and High Lords really just usurped.

So, huh, the primarchs almost killed the Emperor, let us give the full power ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
So the Average Joe probably doesn't know wtf a "Primarch" is, but he knows that Russ was a Space Marine badass who walked beside the God-Emperor as a son.

Do you mean that he was a 10 meters tall giant that rode a similarly gigantic wolf into space to fight 50 meter talls ork big bosses while only wearing some fur loin cloth ?

TiamatRoar wrote:
Leman Russ is in the Space Wolves' battle cry so the chances of a civilian not knowing his connection to the wolves is rather slim

Do you realize that the chance for a civilian to have ever seen the space wolves doing battle are likely way less than 0,0000000000001% ? I means, if I added the right number of zero right, you can expect about one civilian having seen the wolves do battle when you consider one hundred thousand billions civilians. Our planet contain 6 billions, most planets of the Imperium have never been visited by the wolves during the last human lifetime, and even on the planet they did, most civilians were not really hanging in on the battlefield.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
the Astartes respect the Sisters' humanity, but look down on their prowess.

I don't quite see it like that. I think that any Marines who knew about the Sisters would know them more for their skill at war rather than any perceived humanity. So, if at all, they'd respect them as a skilled fighting force fighting for broadly the same cause. But they'd also know about the extreme zeal of the Sisters, and how the Sisters might disapprove of Space Marines and their beliefs, so that would be the initial wedge between them. Then, when they fight together, the Marines come to see the Sisters more as comrades-in-arms, thus gaining respect for them.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
the Space Marines would turn it back into a rationalistic dictatorship, well most of them

The Marines are quite diverse in what they believe and how they live. I reckon they'd have fairly different visions for the Imperium at large.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Given that the Ecclesiarchy are based on a book Lorgar wrote

No, the Ecclesiarchy was formed by a large range of cults spread all across the Imperium. Lorgar's book did not start the whole thing off. Some of its beliefs may have somehow filtered in one way or another, but it certainly wasn't the basis.

Also, it's doubtful that the Inquisition would just let the writings of a known traitor be freely dispersed and formed into a state religion.

Troike, face it - Marines don't respect the fighting skill of any human until they've seen it in action.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Troike, face it - Marines don't respect the fighting skill of any human until they've seen it in action.

Pretty sure that would depend on the individual Marine.

Anyway, what I was getting at is that "humanity" isn't something that one would really admire in the Sisters, since they pretty removed from just being normal people. Unless you meant humanity in the sense of them being regular, unaugment human warriors, in which case I could agree to some extent.

TiamatRoar wrote:
I said "more often". I never said they didn't have any statues whatsoever of Thor or Celeste or whoever (if that's Celeste).

Is that how you write Celestine ?
So, I have one big example of a huge, huge statue of a Sister of Battle. I know of one place where there are statues of primarch, on Terra, cf the illustrations in the BRB.


Now, with only, say, 10000 individuals, which means less than one for every thousands of planets or something, and with interplanetary travel quite rare, I am a bit unconvinced about the wolves' battle cries becoming famous all around the galaxy by hearsay. But maybe that is just me.

Troike, face it - Marines don't respect the fighting skill of any human until they've seen it in action.

The Wolves have pretty high regard for the Guard, in the Wolf books they treat the Officers in the Guard as equals.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Troike, face it - Marines don't respect the fighting skill of any human until they've seen it in action.

The Wolves have pretty high regard for the Guard, in the Wolf books they treat the Officers in the Guard as equals.

Except for the ones they've murdered, like the officers that accompanied that Inquisitorial fleet.

So, huh, the primarchs almost killed the Emperor, let us give the full power ?

Yeah they did,, they also conquered most of whats Imperial territory, most of whats good and bad in the Imperium is from the Primarchs.

Now, with only, say, 10000 individuals, which means less than one for every thousands of planets or something, and with interplanetary travel quite rare, I am a bit unconvinced about the wolves' battle cries becoming famous all around the galaxy by hearsay. But maybe that is just me.

You really should read Codex: Space Wolves. This is a Chapter that flies all over the galaxy on their Great Hunts and, though none have ever succeeded in finding Russ, have always encountered some terrible threat to an Imperial population center of some kind, and have defeated that threat to become honored saviors of that world.

This is why the Space Wolves are called the "most famous and popular Space Marine Chapter in the Imperium".

Space Wolves just handwave all reasonable sanity or fluff because, well, Space Wolves. That is all the reason we are ever given, and that is one of the reasons I loathe them as a faction.

They are literally the worst gary stu fanboy faction in 40k.

 Psienesis wrote:
You really should read Codex: Space Wolves.

You should crunch the numbers.

 Psienesis wrote:
This is a Chapter that flies all over the galaxy on their Great Hunts and, though none have ever succeeded in finding Russ, have always encountered some terrible threat to an Imperial population center of some kind, and have defeated that threat to become honored saviors of that world.

Is that not somehow the definition of Gary Stu ? We go around, and always, by incredible chance, there is a terrible thread to an Imperial population center. And then, we always defeat that threat. Always. Because we are the Space Wolves, and we never loose.

(Though really, the way you are presenting it make it looks very sensible… if you consider the fact they may be con artist that actually creates the menace themselves, fashion it in a way they can be sure to defeat, and therefore bath in glory like Ollanius Partridge himself !)


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Ironclad Warlord wrote:
Yeah they did,, they also conquered most of whats Imperial territory, most of whats good and bad in the Imperium is from the Primarchs.

What is good about the Imperium is not exactly “the territory”. Actually, if all this territory had been forcibly converted to Chaos, it would have been so much worse than before the great crusade…

s that not somehow the definition of Gary Stu ? We go around, and always, by incredible chance, there is a terrible thread to an Imperial population center. And then, we always defeat that threat. Always. Because we are the Space Wolves, and we never loose.

(Though really, the way you are presenting it make it looks very sensible… if you consider the fact they may be con artist that actually creates the menace themselves, fashion it in a way they can be sure to defeat, and therefore bath in glory like Ollanius Partridge himself !)

The Space Wolves very much are the Gary Stu of the studio, which is why I rag on them so much, but my main complaint about the SW is the writing that is done to give them the reputation that they have amongst the playerbase. The device that makes the Wolves "cool" is by making the rest of everyone in the setting a moron, including the rest of the Imperium (which makes you wonder how stupid the Wolves must be to work for it).