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Sometimes when I read some of the crying on this forum it literally does make me lol.

Dark Eldar are not tier 1 that's for sure but there are still ways of screwing over mechdar and other lists.

Wait send see what the codex beings.

Nightshields going to +1 cover seems to be a buff to Raiders/Reavers but a nerf to Ravagers.

With DE you have to play aggressively, never jinking with Ravagers and relying upon Flickerfields and Nightshields to keep them alive.

Raiders and Reavers getting 3+ jink is pretty awesome though as they don't care about snapshotting.

 Fayric wrote:
Reavers needed a nerf, honestly.
And nightshields for 3+ jink is just awesome.

Not really.

There's so much ignore cover out there that this is pretty much useless in a lot of games.

And of course in doing so you're really hampering the only long ranged firepower you have in return, which of course means that the poison weapons you have are going to be of even less use if you're not opening up enemy tanks etc.

Anyone saying DE is a weak army dont know how to play it.

This will be the last time we see this line of argument used in the thread.

If this is the level of argument one is going to bring to the forum then it's better you just don't bother posting.


.. so my reavers have now been turned from a fast harassing unit into a one shot suicide unit, that will presumably be unable to be supported by anything as radical as a character on a bike as there's no model for that ..? Thanks GW.

Poison racks affecting all poison weapons might be helpful, far less so though if splinter cannons are indeed salvo. And of course you survive the raider exploding around first time something looks at it.

These are my immediate thoughts on how my army list will change (obviously points dependant)

HQ

The Baron is out. There goes my HQ. However the new webway portal is interesting. Dropping an Archon plus either a retinue of Sslyth and Lhamaeans or a group of grotesques right into my opponents back line on turn 2/3 could be fun.
Probably use a haemy or two too if I feel a key unit (like the grotesques above)need a PFP boost.

TROOPS
Haywire Wyches are gone. A single grenade just won't cut it. I also can't see myself using Wyches in larger groups either.. However, raiders full of Kaballites got boosted. Free DS and racks work on cannons. That's my go-to option so far. This may shock you, but I MIGHT even throw a shredder in here if they're similarly priced and get shred.

ELITES

I rarely used Elites before. Occasionally a blastboat or Incubi squad got a run out. The latter might still see use. Grotesques have already been mentioned too.
Mandrakes may actually be usable, as ignores cover lacks the pervasiveness in my group that others seem to suffer. Set up camp on an objective early on with a 2+ save and use baleblast to irritate. They won't be gamechangers but it'll be nice for such pretty models to see the table.

FAST ATTACK

I think this section got disrupted the most. No Baron for the beastpack, blade vanes became boring, and choices have to compete with the Razorwing too.
Bikes will likely get used for tank hunting. Heatlances in the shooting phase, then charge with rending if hullpoints need stripping or fallback to safety if not.
Hellions might get a run out. They might not. They're cheaper, but what would I do with them?
There's been no work on Scourges. I find them very fragile for their current points so don't tend to use them. However with Haywire Wyches out I will be looking for reliable anti-tank, and they get haywire blasters. (I like haywire, ok). Would like to know more.
Beast packs got nerfbatted. Still fast and potentially dangerous though, depending on points.
Razorwing will get play, through sheer favouritism. I converted my own before the current model came out.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Both my Ravagers are going to be sat behind cover, as far from the enemy as is effective, blasting away. No change there then. Stealth will be handy. DS likely won't. So far, in my head, most of the unit choices I want are starting off the table. There's only these and (Shockingly) mandrakes that will prevent a T1 auto lose.

Talos are slow but fun. It'll be nice to have the option of taking more without losing Ravagers. Never used a Chronos but if they take the same slot as Talos that might change.

The Voidraven apparently got more expensive and lost a point of armour on front & side. Plus it's competing with Ravagers and pain engines. PLUS although I love the model, it's £50. It's certainly not my first choice.

LORD OF WAR

I'd be really excited to use a LoW, IF WE HAD ONE.
Sincerly disappointed we don't get an option here. However LoW haven't really taken off in my group anyway. I won't be disadvantaged by my lack.

Leggy wrote:
These are my immediate thoughts on how my army list will change (obviously points dependant)

HQ

The Baron is out. There goes my HQ. However the new webway portal is interesting. Dropping an Archon plus either a retinue of Sslyth and Lhamaeans or a group of grotesques right into my opponents back line on turn 2/3 could be fun.
Probably use a haemy or two too if I feel a key unit (like the grotesques above)need a PFP boost.

TROOPS
Haywire Wyches are gone. A single grenade just won't cut it. I also can't see myself using Wyches in larger groups either.. However, raiders full of Kaballites got boosted. Free DS and racks work on cannons. That's my go-to option so far. This may shock you, but I MIGHT even throw a shredder in here if they're similarly priced and get shred.

ELITES

I rarely used Elites before. Occasionally a blastboat or Incubi squad got a run out. The latter might still see use. Grotesques have already been mentioned too.
Mandrakes may actually be usable, as ignores cover lacks the pervasiveness in my group that others seem to suffer. Set up camp on an objective early on with a 2+ save and use baleblast to irritate. They won't be gamechangers but it'll be nice for such pretty models to see the table.

FAST ATTACK

I think this section got disrupted the most. No Baron for the beastpack, blade vanes became boring, and choices have to compete with the Razorwing too.
Bikes will likely get used for tank hunting. Heatlances in the shooting phase, then charge with rending if hullpoints need stripping or fallback to safety if not.
Hellions might get a run out. They might not. They're cheaper, but what would I do with them?
There's been no work on Scourges. I find them very fragile for their current points so don't tend to use them. However with Haywire Wyches out I will be looking for reliable anti-tank, and they get haywire blasters. (I like haywire, ok). Would like to know more.
Beast packs got nerfbatted. Still fast and potentially dangerous though, depending on points.
Razorwing will get play, through sheer favouritism. I converted my own before the current model came out.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Both my Ravagers are going to be sat behind cover, as far from the enemy as is effective, blasting away. No change there then. Stealth will be handy. DS likely won't. So far, in my head, most of the unit choices I want are starting off the table. There's only these and (Shockingly) mandrakes that will prevent a T1 auto lose.

Talos are slow but fun. It'll be nice to have the option of taking more without losing Ravagers. Never used a Chronos but if they take the same slot as Talos that might change.

The Voidraven apparently got more expensive and lost a point of armour on front & side. Plus it's competing with Ravagers and pain engines. PLUS although I love the model, it's £50. It's certainly not my first choice.

LORD OF WAR

I'd be really excited to use a LoW, IF WE HAD ONE.
Sincerly disappointed we don't get an option here. However LoW haven't really taken off in my group anyway. I won't be disadvantaged by my lack.

You know, I would have said that there might be a LoW in the codex proper, BUT you'd think that if there was GW would be showing it off. Like, "enjoy our new oversized talos-gimp, complete with explosive ballgag and powerwhips"

Leggy wrote:
Haywire Wyches are gone. A single grenade just won't cut it

Hang on. I missed where wyches could only take one haywire grenade?

Wyches lack haywire grenades now? Where do we see this?

Also maybe Reaver bike point cost has been reduced. That could give them potential.

What's the deal with Wyches and a "single grenade"? Sure they can throw only one in the Shooting Phase, but they're free to use one-per-each in Assault Phase when fighting a Vehicle.

Deep within the twisted city of Nottingham, a race of dark creatures, twisted parodies of a once great race, plots the doom of all. These creatures delight in the torment of others, and regularly launch realspace raids to take from the wallets of lesser races.

Pray they do not update your codex while you're still alive...

Will someone please explain to me how a 3+ cover save on a paper mache vehicle is better than a 4++ ?

Only the Hekatrix in a Wych unit has access to Haywire now, apparently. That means 1 attack in the shooting phase, and one in close combat.
I can't say definitively which source it's from. I've been reading rumours all over the net. Possibly Warseer though.

 agnosto wrote:
Will someone please explain to me how a 3+ cover save on a paper mache vehicle is better than a 4++ ?

Its not. But being as flickerfields were a ++5 , not a ++4 up, I'll take the thing that exists in our reality.

 Fayric wrote:
Reavers needed a nerf, honestly.
And nightshields for 3+ jink is just awesome.
Anyone saying DE is a weak army dont know how to play it.

Indeed, it's a fantastic army and it has always been.
I plan to field a detachment for my Eldar army. Enough stuff at home.

agnosto wrote:Will someone please explain to me how a 3+ cover save on a paper mache vehicle is better than a 4++ ?

Flickers are a 5+*.

Honestly, so much of this is likely rumours, and is definately not confirmed till I have the book in my hands.

Though if Webway Portals now give just ONE unit Deepstrike... what's the point?
Also, feth anyone who bought the Webway Portal Marker, or ran a Webway list.

And what am I going to do with these?

(Old image, more work done since, but still)

mercury14 wrote:
Wyches lack haywire grenades now? Where do we see this?

Also maybe Reaver bike point cost has been reduced. That could give them potential.

Eldar Jetbikes are 17 points a model for a troops unit with 3+ armor.
Marines are 21 points a model for a T5 3+ save unit that can be made into troops.
Ork bikes are 18 PPM for a T5 4+ armor model
Reaver Jetbikes are currently 22 PPM for a FA unit with 5+ armor, but the ability to do d3 wounds by turboboosting over a unit.


New bladevanes seem to trade that for an improved HoW attack, so they have to get into combat and face overwatch and cc attacks.
They need to at least drop to 15-16 points a model to be on par with other bike units. 16 points would be +7 points over a warrior, which fits the pricing of recent marine bikes, while Orks pay 12 points for their bikes since it adds in the eavy armor upgrade as well. Meanwhile Guardians get bikes for 8 points and they get power armor added in that price.

 Ovion wrote:

agnosto wrote:Will someone please explain to me how a 3+ cover save on a paper mache vehicle is better than a 4++ ?

Flickers are a 5+*.

Honestly, so much of this is likely rumours, and is definately not confirmed till I have the book in my hands.

Though if Webway Portals now give just ONE unit Deepstrike... what's the point?
Also, feth anyone who bought the Webway Portal Marker, or ran a Webway list.

And what am I going to do with these?

(Old image, more work done since, but still)

BFG terrain...

Webway strike got severely damaged ages ago, frankly I prefer deepstrike now, you can drop a maximized unit of grotesques into the heart of the enemy.

If only hekatrixes get haywire that sucks.

Maybe wych weapons come for free now?

mercury14 wrote:
If only hekatrixes get haywire that sucks.

Maybe wych weapons come for free now?

Wych weapons as in the incarnation of the third Ed would be great.
No +1A for second cc weapon. This took the sting out of some assault units.

Goresaw wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Will someone please explain to me how a 3+ cover save on a paper mache vehicle is better than a 4++ ?

Its not. But being as flickerfields were a ++5 , not a ++4 up, I'll take the thing that exists in our reality.

Ah, that's right. For some reason I was thinking of the old Tau disruption pods (Tau were my first army and I just got into DE about 5 months ago).

Edit:
I'm constantly hypnotized by the videos in MGS's signatures.

Also, when disruption pods were nerfed nobody really complained about it too much because, well...riptides; what did DE get? A flier that's on the board for 2 or 3 turns a game and is made out of tissue. Yay?


Edit v2.0:

I get how all the fear-based stuff is fluffy but fear is a nearly useless USR in 40K (works fairly well in fantasy). If all the "Gets this rule that doesn't work on ATSKNF" and Warlord traits on Faeit are true, you can just ignore most of the wargear and warlord traits...makes the game simpler I suppose.

If Night Shields give stealth that's a substantial buff over the pretty useless -6" thing.

 Fayric wrote:
Reavers needed a nerf, honestly.
And nightshields for 3+ jink is just awesome.
Anyone saying DE is a weak army dont know how to play it.

3+ cover is strong, but isnt that good when looking at ALL the Ignore cover out there, Everyone that will think about fighting DE will make sure to bring Ignore cover. DA, tau, Eldar, SM, IG, Necros and CSM will eat through Cover and wreck us if any type of tailoring is made.

The -6" and 5++ was amazing combo to stop these from happening.

yeah,

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Webway strike got severely damaged ages ago, frankly I prefer deepstrike now, you can drop a maximized unit of grotesques into the heart of the enemy.

at least when we used the WWP template your guys gained an extra 3" away from the model that dropped the WWP plus their 6 move... It wasn't bad for trueblaster squads who could spread out and fire...

Now they will be all clumped up within 6" if they shoot instead of running to spread out...

The whole DE player base was crying out for a return to the old assault portals!

mercury14 wrote:
If Night Shields give stealth that's a substantial buff over the pretty useless -6" thing.

-6" stopped melta attacks they had to deep strike/ move within 6"!
OK staying 18" from bolters wasn't a big win... but bolters had to be within 6" to rapid fire.

Not so great when get are now getting rapid fired with twice as many bolter rounds....
And have to deal with melta guns again...

Panic...

Shingen wrote:
Sometimes when I read some of the crying on this forum it literally does make me lol.

Dark Eldar are not tier 1 that's for sure but there are still ways of screwing over mechdar and other lists.

Wait send see what the codex beings.

Notice you are poking fun at others here? Seriously guy, stupid strategy unless you want to start a flame war and get the thread locked. Argue with points related to what we have heard rather then being that dick who laughs at others disappointment.

Old night shields not stop melta attacks because S8 AP1 with one die was enough to blow you up. I'd rather have 3+ cover.

And venoms are small and numerous, that reduces the impact of cover-ignoring weapons. 5++ didnt do much because it failed 2/3 of the time.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Wyches lack haywire grenades now? Where do we see this?

Also maybe Reaver bike point cost has been reduced. That could give them potential.

Eldar Jetbikes are 17 points a model for a troops unit with 3+ armor.
Marines are 21 points a model for a T5 3+ save unit that can be made into troops.
Ork bikes are 18 PPM for a T5 4+ armor model
Reaver Jetbikes are currently 22 PPM for a FA unit with 5+ armor, but the ability to do d3 wounds by turboboosting over a unit.


New bladevanes seem to trade that for an improved HoW attack, so they have to get into combat and face overwatch and cc attacks.
They need to at least drop to 15-16 points a model to be on par with other bike units. 16 points would be +7 points over a warrior, which fits the pricing of recent marine bikes, while Orks pay 12 points for their bikes since it adds in the eavy armor upgrade as well. Meanwhile Guardians get bikes for 8 points and they get power armor added in that price.

Honestly Reavers should hit the 12ppm mark. T4 with a 5+ save and one of the WORST guns on any bike in the game all on a GEQ...yea 12PPM, especially if bladevaning becomes HoW. Consider a seeker is 12ppm right now and is miles ahead IMO as a FA dedicated assault unit.

That won't happen though considering we know hellions are 13ppm and are just flat worse then even reavers lol.

Its going to be interesting how this interacts with the Eldar book. A lot of it looks like Rent-a-raider for the eldar CC units.

 jspyd3rx wrote:
Just posted on warseer

- Huskblades are ap3, cheaper, not a relic
- Racks now work on all Splinter weapons
- Wych weapons nerfed. Hydras confer Shred, Razors reroll To Hit, Shardnet/Impaler reroll 1s on To Hit and To Wound
- Stun Claw is +1S, ap6, confers ID in challenge
- Shadow Field is more expensive
- Incubi are still ap2
- Torment Gren. Launchers can now be fired, 24", blast, s1, unit hit tests Ld, takes a wound for each point it failed, no armor or cover saves, doesnt work against ATSKNF
- Night Shield confers Stealth
- Hex Rifle inflicts ID on Precision Hits
- Soul Trap gives +1s for each usnaved wound inflicted in a challenge
- Reavers no longer attack while moving, now bladevanes are improved HoW. Caltrops inflict D6 rending HoWs, Gravs inflict Concussive
- Spirit Probe now improves FnP of all Deldar in 6" by 1 to a max od 4+
- Phantasm works like TGL, shorter range
- Ossefactor is assault 1, fleshbane, ap2. If something is killed then the victims unit get d6 hits with s equal to t of the victim, ap-, ignores cover
- Liquifier is now s3
- Implosion Msls are s6 ap2 blast
- Chain Flails now only give Shred
- Talos has 3 attacks, same as Cronos
- Borh Haemy and Archon improve PfP, they let a unit add a 1 to the turn number for PrP, this stacks
- Warlord traits are ultrashitty, one gives the warlord +1 ws...
- Artefacts look average too, there is the old Djinn blade which works almost the same, a helmet that gives adamantium will in 12" and perils on any double, a terrible pistol, an ghostplate that gives -2 Ld in 6" and Fear, also one of the items does not work against atsknf. There is also Animus Vitae which is a one use, assault 1, s4 ap2, 8" that if a unsaved wound is inflicted lets all Deldar add 1 to the turn number for PfP effects until the end of the game
- it says that Dodge now works against any wounds inflicted in fight sub phase, I am nit sure if overwatch counts or not
- bomber is 10 av on all sides
- it looks like Venom Blade can only be taken by the Acothyst now
- no flickerfields for anything other than venoms
- sails let a vehicle flat out 24"
- lances on infantry are a bit cheape

Main thing that made me sad here is (if it turns out to be true) reavers don't do flyover attacks anymore, that was my favourite tactic.

I doubt they will take them away from the whole unit. It's kinda their thing...

If they do I guess I'll have to just Gove trueborn haywire grenades instead unless they removed that too....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I doubt they will take them away from the whole unit. It's kinda their thing...

If they do I guess I'll have to just give trueborn haywire grenades instead unless they removed that too....

 Panic wrote:
yeah,

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Webway strike got severely damaged ages ago, frankly I prefer deepstrike now, you can drop a maximized unit of grotesques into the heart of the enemy.

at least when we used the WWP template your guys gained an extra 3" away from the model that dropped the WWP plus their 6 move... It wasn't bad for trueblaster squads who could spread out and fire...

Now they will be all clumped up within 6" if they shoot instead of running to spread out...

The whole DE player base was crying out for a return to the old assault portals!

mercury14 wrote:
If Night Shields give stealth that's a substantial buff over the pretty useless -6" thing.

-6" stopped melta attacks they had to deep strike/ move within 6"!
OK staying 18" from bolters wasn't a big win... but bolters had to be within 6" to rapid fire.

Not so great when get are now getting rapid fired with twice as many bolter rounds....
And have to deal with melta guns again...

Panic...

Actually bolters need 9" to rapid fire. Rapid fire is not a set 12", it is half od max range. Nightshields reduce the range to 18" thus making rapid fire 9"

Melta never really mattered because our boats are made of paper. Plasma is probably the better bet because you get twice the shots. and still explodes us on a 5+.

Gah, really hope those rumours are false. AP3 huskblades makes challenges really hard, harder than they are currently with a S3 model. Ditto on the shadowfield, isn't it expensive enough now?! Not sure what the point of Archons is if they're more expensive for less slashy. Relics sound entirely pointless.

Based on the Succubus rumours, she'll probably become the default HQ for riding with Incubi.

Ossefactor & Dodge rules sound good, but the Reaver rumour really sucks the character out of them. No flickerfields on Raiders really hurts their gunship potential.

What's the point of making the liquifer S3 too?

If these are true, seems like a lot of nerfs & character removal for no reason.