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No it's not a character

Just outpaces Dark Artisan at I6

I wouldn't worry too much, it's not like DE had a problem with Ground Nids before

Oh it's a Forgeworld model, that explains it, I was like what the hell is a Dima.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I'm noticing everyone is taking wyches in units of 7 or 8, 50/50 with hekatrix but no upgrades on her. I'm not quite sure I follow the reasoning here.

If you plan on running an ID with them then yeah drop them to 9 to make space on the raider but as a standalone squad wouldn't it be best to run them as 10 so you get the three wych weapons? At 5 points a piece I think that's a bargain. Hekatrix I can understand running naked just for the extra attacks and LD but if you got some points to spare wouldn't a power sword be ok too? I know strength 3 sucks but ap3 is still decent (agonizer on a hekatrix seems over costed but on a syren it might be decent), especially since I see wyches being most useful in causing wounds then clearing house with a sweeping advance.

Also I see a lot of people running two raiders with wyches then one venom with wyches, is there a reason for this? A specific strategy or something?

I didn't see a response to the question about the 7 or 8 models. In previous codexes, and most likely in this edition as well, you're trying to strike a balance with wyches to try and win combat in your opponents' turn. Wyches 'need' to be locked in combat to survive during your opponents' shooting phase. They just have much better saves in close combat than out. 7 or 8 models tends to be around the sweet spot for killy, but not too killy so you can attempt to win combat in your assault phase, get locked in combat through your opponents' shooting phase, and then hopefully wipe the opponent during your their assault phase. It will leave you free to move etc. during your following turn.

The number used to be about 6 models in older dexes, but we used to suffer fewer casualties during exploding raiders and there was no overwatch, so squad size has gone up on this magical number.

Can you really calculate so precisely the number of models you need to win a combat but not wipe the enemy out in one round? Seems like there'd be too many possible enemies to make a unit that hits that sweet spot routinely.

The Talos Formation for Corpsethief has a insanely possible 32 x 16 inch threat box basically, which is amazing. The models are very wide, it's basically like having 5 little bit bigger Dreadnought bases in a straight line across comes out to 20 inches wide horizontally. It can pretty much deny movement to the center of the board by itself. I don't know many things that would want to charge a 5 man Talos unit, sure it can be killed but seriously the threat range is so impressive that it can just effectively stay center board and threaten just anything.

This was my final version of the " please try and kill this" Dark Artisan

Haemonoculus w/ Webway Portal, Syndriqs, Nightmare Doll, Panacea Perverted, Vexxator, Fleshgauntlet
Cronos
Talos

375+

The Haemonoculus has a 3+ FNP, 4+ IWD, 3+ Armour save from shooting. -5 initiative to opponents in Challenges. 4+ to wound and Instant Death on 6s and if charged by a greater number Rampage.

I

Haemonoculus w/ Webway Portal, Syndriqs, Nightmare Doll, Panacea Perverted, Vexxator, Fleshgauntlet
Cronos
Talos

375+

The Haemonoculus has a 3+ FNP, 4+ IWD, 3+ Armour save from shooting. -5 initiative to opponents in Challenges. 4+ to wound and Instant Death on 6s and if charged by a greater number Rampage.

Wow so glad I saw this lol. I will be running this next game with some Grots.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Can you really calculate so precisely the number of models you need to win a combat but not wipe the enemy out in one round? Seems like there'd be too many possible enemies to make a unit that hits that sweet spot routinely.

Nope. Just trial and error and knowing what you stand a better chance of winning against. If you're assaulting terminators... all of that goes out the window, but you'll know that you can possibly tie them up for a couple of turns.

The principle of it, trying to win in your opponents round is the more important aspect. All of it comes down to gauging what you'll be better off assaulting. It's going to happen, where you don't have any good options to assault and have to settle for something that isn't optimal during your game.

7 or 8 models though is still an 'effective' size, without being too small, that it still allows you to make an impact and shave a few points that you can spend elsewhere, lending the MSU mentality more

Hollismason wrote:
The Talos Formation for Corpsethief has a insanely possible 32 x 16 inch threat box basically, which is amazing. The models are very wide, it's basically like having 5 little bit bigger Dreadnought bases in a straight line across comes out to 20 inches wide horizontally. It can pretty much deny movement to the center of the board by itself. I don't know many things that would want to charge a 5 man Talos unit, sure it can be killed but seriously the threat range is so impressive that it can just effectively stay center board and threaten just anything.

This was my final version of the " please try and kill this" Dark Artisan

Haemonoculus w/ Webway Portal, Syndriqs, Nightmare Doll, Panacea Perverted, Vexxator, Fleshgauntlet
Cronos
Talos

375+

The Haemonoculus has a 3+ FNP, 4+ IWD, 3+ Armour save from shooting. -5 initiative to opponents in Challenges. 4+ to wound and Instant Death on 6s and if charged by a greater number Rampage.

Yea but that is one pricy haemi....feth me

Its arguably one of the best formations for Dark Eldar period.

He's not that expensive if you don't go with the Webway portal. I mean he has a T7 average against shooting, 3+ armour save, 4+ IWND, 3+ FNP I mean yeah he's expensive if you go the full on crazy route, but if you just give him a flesh gauntlet, Syndriqs, Panacea, and Nightmare, webway

He comes in at 185. Without the webway 150. Why you would not want to webway I dunno , maybe you want a unit that says GO AWAY in your Deployment zone behind a Aegis with a quad gun or a comm relay, and you plan on beta striking. Very little is going to wipe this unit off the board turn 1. Plus no one is going to want to come near it.

I just look at it this way the whole unit, Dark Artisan formation, is it worth it? Hell yes it's worth it especially if he's your warlord.

The Talos and Cronos both reroll 1s on FNP and have a 4+ FNP and he causes FEAR at -1 LD check more if another formation is near him because the Formation LD stuff stacks.

For that price? Around 450? For a Deep Striking unit of Monstrous creatures that no one wants to assault that on turn 4 gets ZEALOT. Yes, he is totally worth it.
Everyone forgets I think that that formation get's ZEALOT, in fact if you were lucky and got a Animus off, turn 3 when he's charging after DSing he's got Zealot.

That unit is insane if he charges with Zealot, 5 ST7 AP2s, 4 ST5 AP2 ( or ST10 for SMASH which is a good choice) and that's just the Talos and Cronos. It'll also beat the crap (maybe) out of a Imperial Knight. You get to go before them because their Initiative 5 and you have a higher WS. You'll definitely get 1 ST10 from the Cronos, then the Talos attacks.

What do people think about the Coven upgrades? Acothyst or Aberrations yes or no? What upgrades TO them, if any? Liquifier guns and/or ossefactors?

Personally, I think I'll leave my Grots alone, maybe give an Aberration to a squad escorting Rakarth if he needs to be rescued from a challenge. Probably ossefactors for the Wracks. Debating the Acothyst question though.

Scissorhand upgrade for the Abberation. That's the only thing I could think of. A dreadnought / Maulerfiend/ Walker will crush / tarpit a grotesque squad.

Ossefactors all the way.

Torment Grenade Launchers are actually decent especially running multiple formations or having a regular D. Eldar unit. It doesn't affect things that are fearless etc.. but there are a lot of units that it does affect and with multiple formations or detachments you can give some hefty -LD.

I'm currently thinking about Ossefactors for Scalpel Formation Wracks, just to get a bit more ranged firepower for the hopeful First Blood. Liquefiers just seem a bit too weak at S3 now to be worth it, especially when you have to pay the sergeant tax. Furthermore, you don't even need the Ld upgrade for the Acothyst if you're playing Coven, as you're Fearless by T2, and you're hopefully in transports of some kind. The Ossefactor is at least a 24" AP2 Fleshbane gun. It's at least double-range plasma pistol (against everything but vehicles) without gets hot for the same points. Then again, Plasma Pistols are hilariously overpriced, so who knows.

The only times I can think of where running an Acothyst would be good would be if you really want 2x Liquifier in a 5 man, or Ossefactor/Hexrifle potshot squad, or maybe a venom blade or Scissorhand guy in a Raider squad. The issue is that the Acothyst is a 20pt model base that has only marginally more survivability than an Ork Boy, and can't get the same number of expendable cheap wounds around him like a PK Nob can.

For Grots, a sergeant tax for an extra attack and challenge protection for embedded characters isn't too bad, though I'd skip giving him a different weapon as the free Flesh Gauntlet is good enough imo.

How does the Scissorhand help against a dread? Didn't think Shred did anything to vehicles.

Does majority toughness apply in challenges?

 Jimsolo wrote:
What do people think about the Coven upgrades? Acothyst or Aberrations yes or no? What upgrades TO them, if any? Liquifier guns and/or ossefactors?

Personally, I think I'll leave my Grots alone, maybe give an Aberration to a squad escorting Rakarth if he needs to be rescued from a challenge. Probably ossefactors for the Wracks. Debating the Acothyst question though.

I run an Acothyst in my Scalpel Squadron formations for two Liquifier Guns. I prefer them to the Ossefactor/Hex Rifle, since you can plop them down near a unit in cover and murder them, using the Venom to finish them off if need be for D3 First Blood.

Aberrations aren't really needed, Fearless turn 2 and you already have a Flesh Gauntlet.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
What do people think about the Coven upgrades? Acothyst or Aberrations yes or no? What upgrades TO them, if any? Liquifier guns and/or ossefactors?

Personally, I think I'll leave my Grots alone, maybe give an Aberration to a squad escorting Rakarth if he needs to be rescued from a challenge. Probably ossefactors for the Wracks. Debating the Acothyst question though.

I run an Acothyst in my Scalpel Squadron formations for two Liquifier Guns. I prefer them to the Ossefactor/Hex Rifle, since you can plop them down near a unit in cover and murder them, using the Venom to finish them off if need be for D3 First Blood.

Aberrations aren't really needed, Fearless turn 2 and you already have a Flesh Gauntlet.

So you just risk the mishap, then?

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
What do people think about the Coven upgrades? Acothyst or Aberrations yes or no? What upgrades TO them, if any? Liquifier guns and/or ossefactors?

Personally, I think I'll leave my Grots alone, maybe give an Aberration to a squad escorting Rakarth if he needs to be rescued from a challenge. Probably ossefactors for the Wracks. Debating the Acothyst question though.

I run an Acothyst in my Scalpel Squadron formations for two Liquifier Guns. I prefer them to the Ossefactor/Hex Rifle, since you can plop them down near a unit in cover and murder them, using the Venom to finish them off if need be for D3 First Blood.

Aberrations aren't really needed, Fearless turn 2 and you already have a Flesh Gauntlet.

So you just risk the mishap, then?

Yeah pretty much, my DS rolls are great if you scatter off, you can disembark after DSing to get close enough to fire the Templates

You can? When did that change?

Apparently you can.

I'm no stranger to cavalier Deep Striking though. 'No balls, no babies' is my operating philosophy with DS arrival.

Scissorhand has rending not shred with ST 5 base and D3 possible additional attacks, I feel it's a good weapon for the Abberations with it's ST5. It also gives at least something to have when facing Armoured opponents. The Abbberation I believe still keeps the Flesh Gauntlet , so with 2 CC weapons and the Charge just minimum he's swinging with 6 attacks on the charge. That's not to shabby, especially if you take the Grotesquirie and get something crazy good like +1 ST or +1T or RAGE.

I mean yes, you need 6s but any 6s are Glances on AV12.

Grotesques have ST5 so T4 or less they reroll to wound with poisoned weapons which I think people forget.


Here's the majority toughness rule for CC :

Multiple Toughness Values
Quite rarely, a unit will contain models that have different Toughness characteristics. When this occurs, roll To Wound using the Toughness value of the majority of the engaged foe. If two or more Toughness values are tied for majority, use the highest of those tied values.

This does not apply to Challenges. However if your Haemonoculus goes up against a armoured foe , fails to kill him, you can GLORIOUS INTERVENTION! with the Talos and beat on the guy who challenged.

Dark Artisan is freaking crazy good. Also, the Nightmare doll set up ignores the first Instant Death automatically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Does majority toughness apply in challenges?

No it does not however, the Talos and Cronos could Glorious Intervention in subsequent turns.


Also this is funny but a unit of Grotesques from the Grotesquirie w/ 5 models and rolling rage get's 6 attacks base on a charge, so 31 attacks plus Rampage.

The formation that I think everyone seems to overlook is the Scarlet Epicureans, it costs a Haemonoculus and Cronos base then 2 Wrack squads, but what makes it great isthe fact they treat the turn 1 higher and it stacks so if you are beta striking and coming in on Turn 2, when they do charge if they have Haemonoculus or are near Urien , they have Zealot as they treat turn 3 as turn 5 which it's hard to argue with 2 squads with Zealot.

I thought you could only glorious intervention with a character? Taloi are not characters.

That's right, they cannot intervene, but still, it's not like formation won't work if haemy refuses challenge - most damage will come from talos in CC and cronos in shooting.

 Vexler wrote:
That's right, they cannot intervene, but still, it's not like formation won't work if haemy refuses challenge - most damage will come from talos in CC and cronos in shooting.

anyway! haemi's dont fight! they are puppeteers! pulling the strings as the dance of flesh and steel plays out delighting in every squeal and devouring the very essence of hope.

Good catch, yeah been playing that wrong for a while now whoops.

Here's a formation I think people need to look at more.

Scarlet Epicureans

1 Cronos
1 Haemonoculus
2 Units of Wracks

All wracks have Precision Strike within 12 of Haemy, All Wracks treat the turn 1 turn higher, stacks. At first your like " Precision strikes BOOO. This is actually huge!

Especially with a Turn 3 charge with Zealot, as you get to allocate where the wounds go when you hit with precision strikes, you can brutalize special characters in the squad.

Next off the Wracks can take Raiders.

Now before Wracks may have not been seen as that useful or considered " Lesser"

This formation though. With a Haemy or Urien!

Coming on in Turn 2 via Aero Sails or just turn 1 it which ever they are turn 3 on Turn 1 with a Haemy or Urien.

That's huge, Fear , Fearless, IWND not that great ; it's turn 3 where they become O_O.

They get Zealot starting Turn 3, if you are dropping in with Turn 2, getting a charge off in turn 3, your charging with Zealot.

That's huge.

Especially when you realize these guys can get venoms if they wish.

So you could have a 9 Man w/ Haemy, Venom w/ Back up, but what to do with that Cronos?

He's perfect for putting in the backfield behind a Aegis or a Fortification.

Anyway I think it's a excellent formation that people are over looking.

Honestly, I love all the formations. I'd love to field as many as possible, then use Telepathy Farseers to capitalize on the Ld penalties.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Honestly, I love all the formations. I'd love to field as many as possible, then use Telepathy Farseers to capitalize on the Ld penalties.

or an Iyanden spiritseer council. It's the inspiration for next years build.

Can Hekatrixes and Syrens be the Wyches that take Wych weapons?

mercury14 wrote:
Can Hekatrixes and Syrens be the Wyches that take Wych weapons?

I was wondering that myself, and was leaning towards no, because now they are 'Hekatrix and Syrens', and use a different stat line than wyches. However, I've seen it played that you equip the 'wych' with the special weapon, and then upgrade it. So....yeah....no idea.

There used to be precedent to support a 'yes' before the new Orks codex, but currently the consensus is 'no,'

Not sure it means anything but Army Builder's interpretation is 'yes'.

Solar Shock wrote:

 Vexler wrote:
That's right, they cannot intervene, but still, it's not like formation won't work if haemy refuses challenge - most damage will come from talos in CC and cronos in shooting.

anyway! haemi's dont fight! they are puppeteers! pulling the strings as the dance of flesh and steel plays out delighting in every squeal and devouring the very essence of hope.

Pretty much this, fellow soul-eater.