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sweetbacon wrote:
Yep. I had the same impression. That's how I've been playing and, so far, it seems to be working pretty well. Coven units/formations from the supplement + Real Space Raiders is a really good combo, I've found.

It seems that maybe you could do roughly the same thing inside a purely wych cult or kabalite list, using beastpacks and courts of the archon (Sslyths) as your tougher first-turn units.

Really a Wych shouldn't even be on the board before she has FnP.

But without an allied Archon CWE Autarch, how do you manage the Reserve rolls? I fear you'd end up with units dribbling in and dying piecemeal.

 SisterSydney wrote:
But without an allied Archon, how do you manage the Reserve rolls? I fear you'd end up with units dribbling in and dying piecemeal.

Ideally, theoretically, the enemy would still be dealing with your tough units (coven units, the court, beastpacks) whenever the reserves come in.

Or they don't have to start in reserve. Wyches/Kabalite Warriors can be hanging around behind cover at the back of the board, basking in the delicious pain, as the other units close, and then zoom forward in their transports when PfP kicks in.

The more I think of it, the more it seems to me that this is what the designers had in mind. The fact that beasts don't have PfP is practically encouraging it.

 SisterSydney wrote:
But without an allied Archon, how do you manage the Reserve rolls? I fear you'd end up with units dribbling in and dying piecemeal.

Why not a Bastion with Comms? Gives a unit a big AV14 fortress to hide in- can even put a Quad Gun on the roof to cover for the Deldar's lack of anti-air.

Or an Aegis.

Stick a few folk back there hugging the dirt, and a comms.

All this talk of static fortifications seems very un-Dark-Eldar-y. But maybe they could sell seats to the show at discounted prices if you man a weapon?

 SisterSydney wrote:
All this talk of static fortifications seems very un-Dark-Eldar-y. But maybe they could sell seats to the show at discounted prices if you man a weapon?

I would just stick them behind whatever LoS-blocking terrain there happens to be. Anyway, the enemy should be dealing with the swarm of fast-moving beast critters coming at him.

 SisterSydney wrote:
But without an allied Archon CWE Autarch, how do you manage the Reserve rolls? I fear you'd end up with units dribbling in and dying piecemeal.

I keep hearing this here and over at the Dark City forums, but I honestly haven't had a problem with it. With static 3+ Reserve rolls, I think I've had maybe one or two units EVER fail to come in two turns in a row since I picked up the army.

For an ally, I much prefer a Farseer. Three extra denial dice, plus a tasty assortment of psychic powers to choose from (and if you take them on a bike, with bikers, they bring Objective Secured to the list, which a formation/raiders list lacks).

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Pretty much everything with PfP got better.

Except wyches and hellions. I think their utility still is debatable; the fact that they got hosed isn't.

Wyches lost utility in that they can't walk through superheavy vehicles anymore with ease (they never should have been able to do that in the first place). The Hekatrix throwing then assaulting with a haywire grenade means they can still finish off damaged vehicles and assault things suck as dreadnoughts though.

Wyches got better against everything else though due to them getting PfP without having to kill units first. That's a substantial buff for them against a range of enemies and makes them significantly more survivable when it comes to taking small arms fire and vehicle explosions.

Lastly their Raiders jink on a 3+ now meaning wyches reach their targets more often than ever and vehicle explosions occur less than ever.

They sure don't look hosed to me.

mercury14 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Pretty much everything with PfP got better.

Except wyches and hellions. I think their utility still is debatable; the fact that they got hosed isn't.

Wyches lost utility in that they can't walk through superheavy vehicles anymore with ease (they never should have been able to do that in the first place). The Hekatrix throwing then assaulting with a haywire grenade means they can still finish off damaged vehicles and assault things suck as dreadnoughts though.

Wyches got better against everything else though due to them getting PfP without having to kill units first. That's a substantial buff for them against a range of enemies and makes them significantly more survivable when it comes to taking small arms fire and vehicle explosions.

Lastly their Raiders jink on a 3+ now meaning wyches reach their targets more often than ever and vehicle explosions occur less than ever.

They sure don't look hosed to me.

Then you aren't considering the infinitely worse combat drugs, considerably worse Wych weapons, arguably worse PfP, the removal of a defensive grenade option, the comparative lack of cover in 7th, the point reduction to warriors, or the ludicrously low chance of a hekatrix with haywire grenades accomplishing anything significant. They aren't a good assault unit, aren't a good troops choice, and don't synergize well with any other units/options.

I don't think they're so bad that a skilled player couldn't USE them, (if they already own some) but they are unequivocally worse in this edition, and anybody who doesn't already own them should avoid wasting their money.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Then you aren't considering the infinitely worse combat drugs, considerably worse Wych weapons, arguably worse PfP, the removal of a defensive grenade option, the comparative lack of cover in 7th, the point reduction to warriors, or the ludicrously low chance of a hekatrix with haywire grenades accomplishing anything significant. They aren't a good assault unit, aren't a good troops choice, and don't synergize well with any other units/options.

I don't think they're so bad that a skilled player couldn't USE them, (if they already own some) but they are unequivocally worse in this edition, and anybody who doesn't already own them should avoid wasting their money.

1) Combat drugs are about the same not "infinitely worse".

2) Wych weapons are about the same for their cost.

3) PfP is objectively better, not "arguably worse".

4) Wyches could buy defensive grenades? I never noticed. If they had them it wasn't a good option and therefore not a measurable loss.

5) The cover didn't change when the new codex came out.

6) Warriors dropping a point doesn't make Wyches worse. They perform very different roles so relative value isn't cleanly measured.

7) A Hekatrix throwing a combat grenade and then assaulting with one has an very good chance to take off at least one hull point with an outside chance at a pen. I'd assault Wyches into a shooty Dread or a Knight in a second, not so much for the haywire but to tie them up. And if they were injured already yeah I'd go for the kill.

mercury14 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Then you aren't considering the infinitely worse combat drugs, considerably worse Wych weapons, arguably worse PfP, the removal of a defensive grenade option, the comparative lack of cover in 7th, the point reduction to warriors, or the ludicrously low chance of a hekatrix with haywire grenades accomplishing anything significant. They aren't a good assault unit, aren't a good troops choice, and don't synergize well with any other units/options.

I don't think they're so bad that a skilled player couldn't USE them, (if they already own some) but they are unequivocally worse in this edition, and anybody who doesn't already own them should avoid wasting their money.

1) Combat drugs are about the same not "infinitely worse".

2) Wych weapons are about the same for their cost.

3) PfP is objectively better, not "arguably worse".

4) Wyches could buy defensive grenades? I never noticed. If they had them it wasn't a good option and therefore not a measurable loss.

5) The cover didn't change when the new codex came out.

6) Warriors dropping a point doesn't make Wyches worse. They perform very different roles so relative value isn't cleanly measured.

7) A Hekatrix throwing a combat grenade and then assaulting with one has an very good chance to take off at least one hull point with an outside chance at a pen. I'd assault Wyches into a shooty Dread or a Knight in a second, not so much for the haywire but to tie them up. And if they were injured already yeah I'd go for the kill.

1-3) We'll just have to agree to disagree, amigo. No animosity, but I just can't see my way to agreeing with you here.

4) Yes, that's what the Phantasm Grenade Launcher used to do. And it was a good option, back when cover saves mattered. The new PGL isn't even comparable, since it doesn't do anything remotely similar.

5) No, but the changes to cover in 7th impacted the wyches negatively. They were a weaker choice because of that. Now, without Haywire Grenades to back them up, they haven't got anything going for them.

6) It does make them a worse choice for points and slots. If you're spending your mandatory troop selections on wyches, you're wasting those slots.

7) The amount of points it takes to get a Hekatrix into your army is a waste. For that same role you can get another choice somewhere else that will do the job better, faster, with more durability, for a lower cost.

Wyches were already a sub-par selection in the old codex, but if they were kitted and played right they could still be viable. Now? You can run them if you want, and they aren't so awful that they'll prevent you from winning, but if you take them you are absolutely putting yourself at a disadvantage.

I'm still going to run mine. Like Joe Pesci said, "Why? Because I'm stupid." I have the models, they look great, and they are still 'meh' enough that I should be able to stick them in a friendly game and have other units pick up the slack. But with no Haywire Grenades, no Duke, and virtually no cover, I think they're destined to ride the pine when tourney day rolls around.

mercury14 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Then you aren't considering the infinitely worse combat drugs, considerably worse Wych weapons, arguably worse PfP, the removal of a defensive grenade option, the comparative lack of cover in 7th, the point reduction to warriors, or the ludicrously low chance of a hekatrix with haywire grenades accomplishing anything significant. They aren't a good assault unit, aren't a good troops choice, and don't synergize well with any other units/options.

I don't think they're so bad that a skilled player couldn't USE them, (if they already own some) but they are unequivocally worse in this edition, and anybody who doesn't already own them should avoid wasting their money.

1) Combat drugs are about the same not "infinitely worse".

2) Wych weapons are about the same for their cost.

3) PfP is objectively better, not "arguably worse".

4) Wyches could buy defensive grenades? I never noticed. If they had them it wasn't a good option and therefore not a measurable loss.

5) The cover didn't change when the new codex came out.

6) Warriors dropping a point doesn't make Wyches worse. They perform very different roles so relative value isn't cleanly measured.

7) A Hekatrix throwing a combat grenade and then assaulting with one has an very good chance to take off at least one hull point with an outside chance at a pen. I'd assault Wyches into a shooty Dread or a Knight in a second, not so much for the haywire but to tie them up. And if they were injured already yeah I'd go for the kill.

1- combat drugs are about the same, but there is no longer an option from a certain HQ to allow you a better chance to get a useful combat drug option, and there currently are no dataslates or formations for wyche cults that would improve combat drugs, or allow for a second combat drug roll or some such.

2- Wyche weapons are not about the same. The ability to reduce attacks is gone, and the rerolls have been severely reduced on the wyche weapons, they did go down in cost by half but I personally, and I think many people would agree, they went further than half in effectiveness.

Old hydra gauntlets = lots of extra attacks
old shardnet+impaler= reduce enemy attacks by 1 in btb
old razorflails reroll all to hits and to wounds

all of these were good. arguably the hydra gauntlets were the worst as you average 3.5 attacks, with half hitting, and at S3, maybe 4 your not really getting that much.

new hydra gauntlets=re-roll to wounds
new razorflails= re-roll to hit
new shardnet+impaler= reroll to hit rolls and to wound rolls of 1.

with wyches WS and S the roll you are most likely to fail in a tournament setting is to wound, making razorflails now the worst option. Hydra gauntlets are now the best as most of the dice you will need to reroll will most likely be on wounds, with shardnet+impaler being a middle ground of these two not anywhere as good as before options.

3- pfp overall is better in that the whole army gets it, old wyches would start with it often as you would put a Haem with them so turn 1, or even before you go they have FnP 5+. Currently they are not getting that until turn 3, maybe 2 depending on various army options.

4- old phantasm grenade launcher gave defensive, honestly I agree with you wasn't that big of a loss. I vaguely recall a faq stating the cover from defensive grenades did not count as cover for shooting during overwatch. New PGL is a list tailored item only, since it does not work on ATSKNF or fearless in most tournament settings you will be lucky to have a target to fire at this over all the games you play in total. In the past years multiple times in tournaments on the east coast I have played 4-6 rounds and played against at most 1 opponent each tournament that had models that were not space marines, or just fearless.

5- I don't see much of a change.

6- warriors going down does not make wyches worse, but makes you more likely to buy more warriors over wyches. Which in the end makes wyches less likely to be taken, but not in of itself worse.

7- I think a hekatrix has uses, and the cost isn't ridiculously high to upgrade. 10 pts for an additional attack, 5 pts for the haywire grenades.

If we're comparing last codex's Wyches on the basis of them having a Haemi can we agree to do the same with this Codex's Wyches? FNP 5+ on turn two and on turn three they're hitting at S4.

Also the Hekatrix gives Ld 9, which in a unit with tarpit utility is quite valuable.

Nobody addressed my point about 3+ jinking Raiders being a buff to their delivery system.

Lastly, if we're calling the change to cover between editions a nerf then why aren't we calling the change to the vehicle damage chart a buff? Substantially less explosions... And now they have some kind of FnP to help them cope as long as it's not turn one.

Because our AV 10 open-topped vehicles still explode to a hard sneeze.

Yes, vehicles got buffed, (I guess...) but the changes to the way we get cover is a much larger negative; the two don't balance out.

3+ Jinking Raiders are nice, there's no denying. Wyches are just a terrible option to put in them.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Because our AV 10 open-topped vehicles still explode to a hard sneeze.

Yes, vehicles got buffed, (I guess...) but the changes to the way we get cover is a much larger negative; the two don't balance out.

3+ Jinking Raiders are nice, there's no denying. Wyches are just a terrible option to put in them.

Yes, a 3+ jink save vehicle in an MSU list carrying 10-point models inside is relatively safe. I've had opponents spend the bulk of their whole shooting phase trying to take out a Raider that keeps rolling that 3+, it's not that rare. And if our opponents want to focus that much firepower on a single Raider in an MSU list just to counter some 10-point Wyches, that's a huge win for us.

3+ jink save from RR is great to okay depending on peoples meta, there is still a decent amount of ignores cover out there.

The issue with PFP is the wyches are in a fast transport, this edition and last. Realistically you can pull off a turn 2 charge with them.

If a raider blows up its taking most of the wyches with it, due to T3 and no armor save.

Considering that the wyches are probably going to reach assault turn 2, having a haem now to give increased pfp is not of much greater use than before since if the raider is getting blown up prior to our turn 2, they still are not getting a 5+ fnp like they did before.

3+ jinking raider is good, im just not so sure that a 3+ jink with no save for the wyches from FnP is better than a 4+ jink with a 5+ save for the wyches if the raider goes down. It's not that far off tho.

Do you guys usually lose a large volume of vehicles turn one? I usually don't... Granted Tau is rare in my meta, but I'm usually pretty okay turn one, especially it the Venoms get a night fighting 3+ jink. And running MSU it's pretty easy to accept a couple vehicles being destroyed or immobilized.

My meta is super mech heavy. Ridiculously so. Many of my games start with my opponent's whole army deployed on the board, without a single exposed enemy infantry unit. Over a hundred and thirty points per HWG just doesn't cut the mustard in Little Egypt. (For a hundred and fifty I can get a single Dark Lance on our toilet tissue transports to go with it!)

The codex doesn't lack for middle of the road assault units, and even has some really good ones. It isn't even like tactical squads, where you might think they suck, but you have to take two troops, and they don't suck as bad as scouts--we have another, really good troops choice.

I'm not saying a Wych can never kill a vehicle or do something worthwhile. But no matter what they do, be it anti-vehicle, anti-infantry, or tar pitting, another unit could have done it better, faster, cheaper, and with greater staying power.

I find Wyches have a use in being a tarpit while you dismantle the rest of the army.

Can't say I have used them, I much prefer having Kabalite Gun boats

Question for all, how do you run your Reavers? I intend to have a unit of 9 with 3x Caltrops and Champion as it clocks in nicely at 199..

I have 24, and run two units of twelve with two caltrops.

wyches are good at engaging high attrition expensive units that hit very very hard, with a limited number of attacks with no real source of rerolls for those attacks.

example- a wraithknight, terminators with thunderhammer/SS.

which is what they were always good at, but not worth using for over other things which actually kill the units they tarpit for about the same points.

reavers-

Currently I run 2 units of 6 with 2x caltrops each and champ with power weapon. 151 a squad.



I usually lose 1-2 vehicles first turn. It's been since about 4th edition since I lost a lot of vehicles turn 1.

blaktoof wrote:
wyches are good at engaging high attrition expensive units that hit very very hard, with a limited number of attacks with no real source of rerolls for those attacks.

example- a wraithknight, terminators with thunderhammer/SS.

which is what they were always good at, but not worth using for over other things which actually kill the units they tarpit for about the same points.

I think a lot of people underestimate this kind of utility that Wyches have. It depends on your meta though.

But even against SM type armies Wyches got better because they get FnP much more easily. They survive in CC better as well as against small arms fire.

mercury14 wrote:
But even against SM type armies Wyches got better because they get FnP much more easily. They survive in CC better as well as against small arms fire.

Back in the day Wyches got FNP Turn 1 for the cost of including a Haem (or for just rolling a certain drug result - meaning sometimes they started with FC as well as FNP depending on what you did)

Nowadays it is FNP on Turn 2 at the earliest really, and it's a much more expensive/risky loadout to do that and potentially costs them fleet in the bargain depending how you did it.

I am of the opinion that it is harder to give them FNP than it used to be. I suppose it is easier/cheaper if your goal was to field 3+ Wych units but it also becomes slower at that stage, which is tough as the optimal times to have it are the early rounds, not the later ones.

Also, what utility do you think people are overlooking about wyches? I will happily agree that they are tarpitters. What other role do they have? Maybe 'light infantry harassment' I suppose, but that's risky for them if the light infantry is a shooty infantry. Beyond that I have to admit I can't think of much they do that well. What am I missing?

Earlier he was saying they do good anti-vehicle work.

7) A Hekatrix throwing a combat grenade and then assaulting with one has an very good chance to take off at least one hull point with an outside chance at a pen. I'd assault Wyches into a shooty Dread or a Knight in a second, not so much for the haywire but to tie them up. And if they were injured already yeah I'd go for the kill.

I think wyches are decent against dreds, not against knights.

If I had wyches with haywire, I would even consider assaulting them against an assault dred. Most assault dreds after saves will on average only gib 1 wych so you have a few turns of trying to glance it with haywire grenades, essentially just tarpitting it.

I wouldn't go after a knight because of stomp.

a lot of TOs rule stomp can hit models outside of the assault if the rules for stomp are followed for placing blasts, so it gives them a chance to hurt things of yours near the assault, also one lucky stomp, or a few average ones, on the wyches will end the assault making the tarpit not so effective, and a knight will average 2 stomps on the turn you charge it.

blaktoof wrote:
I think wyches are decent against dreds, not against knights.

If I had wyches with haywire, I would even consider assaulting them against an assault dred. Most assault dreds after saves will on average only gib 1 wych so you have a few turns of trying to glance it with haywire grenades, essentially just tarpitting it.

I wouldn't go after a knight because of stomp.

a lot of TOs rule stomp can hit models outside of the assault if the rules for stomp are followed for placing blasts, so it gives them a chance to hurt things of yours near the assault, also one lucky stomp, or a few average ones, on the wyches will end the assault making the tarpit not so effective, and a knight will average 2 stomps on the turn you charge it.

I agree with running Wyches at Dreadnoughts as a viable tactic. Tarpitting them with Wyches and slowly whittling down their HP's with a Hekatrix is actually the only really effective way I have seen Wyches used since the new codex was released. I do get a chuckle out of the fact that the DE units that are actually good in assault like Grotesques and Talos generally want nothing to do with a kitted-out CC Dread, while Wyches, which are pretty terrible in assault, are actually, sorta, kinda decent at dealing with them.

Sweet, blak, do you guys think wyches are still worth taking? Or are those points better spent elsewhere?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Sweet, blak, do you guys think wyches are still worth taking? Or are those points better spent elsewhere?

I only think they're really worth the points if you need to tarpit a scary unit like CCB Lord, Centstar, Dreadnoughts, etc. And they really only make good tarpits in larger squads of 7+ with a Covens Haemonculus to make them Fearless. So a pretty decent points investment which probably could be spent elsewhere, but I'm saying if you absolutely have/want to take Wyches, this is what they seem to be best at now. If they roll + 1 Toughness on the Combat Drugs, they will get their FNP against some nasty things in CC, so a 4++/5+ Fearless unit makes for decently effective tarpit.

But again, I'm not endorsing Wyches as "good." Just opining on what they do best now.

mercury14 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
wyches are good at engaging high attrition expensive units that hit very very hard, with a limited number of attacks with no real source of rerolls for those attacks.

example- a wraithknight, terminators with thunderhammer/SS.

which is what they were always good at, but not worth using for over other things which actually kill the units they tarpit for about the same points.

I think a lot of people underestimate this kind of utility that Wyches have. It depends on your meta though.

But even against SM type armies Wyches got better because they get FnP much more easily. They survive in CC better as well as against small arms fire.

What utility? They are one of the most one dimensional units in the book, focusing on the worst phase of the game.

10 wyches in a raider with upgrades costs the same as 10 marines with a rhino and 2 specials. That's insane when you look at durability and output over the course of a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Sweet, blak, do you guys think wyches are still worth taking? Or are those points better spent elsewhere?

Seriously, it puzzles me why people suggest squandering points on rubbish when there are so many better options in the book. It's not like we are forced to make them work.