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 Red Corsair wrote:

Seriously, it puzzles me why people suggest squandering points on rubbish when there are so many better options in the book. It's not like we are forced to make them work.

Lol, why you singlin' me out? I've been preaching the waste of space that is wyches for the last two pages.

I think Wyches can be used. They have a different role now and cant be relied on to do what they used to do. Will they die to shooting? yes, they always have.

Will they crumble to assault units with lots of attacks? yup... they always have.

I like the new PFP chart and the drugs are all useful and thats nice there is no longer a useless one (unless you are playing low Initiative armies).

Can you run a pure wych cult? I dont think it would do as well as a balanced or kabalitic centric force... but I think It would be playable with the proper generalship.

Ok. Then again, I am a chronic optimist wading through the quagmire of the internet swamp of doom and sorrow.

People really can't see the utility of cheap 10-point gals that can tie up Dreadnoughts, MCs, Knights, Cents, most stuff that comes out of a Drop Pod, TH/SS/Shooty Termis, etc?

Kabalites are solid units, yeah, however they lack the utility of Wyches and die just as easily to bolt gun fire.

mercury14 wrote:
Kabalites are solid units, yeah, however they lack the utility of Wyches and die just as easily to bolt gun fire.

Arguably they die slower since they'll almost never assault something and thus take no Overwatch fire.

I also have no idea why people keep using the word 'utility' when discussing the Wyches. Since this conversation started the 'utility' appear to be 'tarpit'. That has been expanded on to list what units they can tarpit and what units they cannot. That is not actually utility to my mind, what you are saying is they are limited tarpits, who are only good at tarpitting certain things and are bad at tarpitting others. So, basically they have one job (tarpit) but can't tarpit most enemy units, only a handful of units (specifically, they tarpit things with low to no shooting that have strong but limited in number attacks in assault). I will agree that's something that they can do, but they don't actually do it with much 'utility' ecause that's actually a very specific thing.

Then we have the warrior unit who, if given a blaster, has the ability to damage basically any unit in the game with its shooting. That's actually utility because no matter what army my opponent is playing, no matter what units he does or does not bring, I know that my Warriors will be able to shoot at and hurt his army.

Meanwhile, if there is no Wraithknight or Cent/Termie shooty squad or non-flamer Dread (so, y'know, just for starters, if I'm playing against Crons, Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, or Imperial Guard - or any Space Marine or Eldar army not fielding the list noted here) then my Wyches are just derping around doing...nothing. That is not utility to my mind, that is a specialist unit with a limited number of optimal targets.

So Wyches do 1 thing well against limited targets and Warriors do 1 thing well against basically any target. I do not understand how you call Wyches as the one with utility from that pair.

 Thor665 wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Kabalites are solid units, yeah, however they lack the utility of Wyches and die just as easily to bolt gun fire.

Arguably they die slower since they'll almost never assault something and thus take no Overwatch fire.

I also have no idea why people keep using the word 'utility' when discussing the Wyches. Since this conversation started the 'utility' appear to be 'tarpit'. That has been expanded on to list what units they can tarpit and what units they cannot. That is not actually utility to my mind, what you are saying is they are limited tarpits, who are only good at tarpitting certain things and are bad at tarpitting others. So, basically they have one job (tarpit) but can't tarpit most enemy units, only a handful of units (specifically, they tarpit things with low to no shooting that have strong but limited in number attacks in assault). I will agree that's something that they can do, but they don't actually do it with much 'utility' ecause that's actually a very specific thing.

Then we have the warrior unit who, if given a blaster, has the ability to damage basically any unit in the game with its shooting. That's actually utility because no matter what army my opponent is playing, no matter what units he does or does not bring, I know that my Warriors will be able to shoot at and hurt his army.

Meanwhile, if there is no Wraithknight or Cent/Termie shooty squad or non-flamer Dread (so, y'know, just for starters, if I'm playing against Crons, Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, or Imperial Guard - or any Space Marine or Eldar army not fielding the list noted here) then my Wyches are just derping around doing...nothing. That is not utility to my mind, that is a specialist unit with a limited number of optimal targets.

So Wyches do 1 thing well against limited targets and Warriors do 1 thing well against basically any target. I do not understand how you call Wyches as the one with utility from that pair.

To be fair, a couple of the armies you posted have units that can be tied up (e.g, TMC's, particulary a grounded Tyrant, BikerStar, BargeLord - this might change come te new Necron Codex).

Personally I still think Kabalite Warriors are the better Troop choice, but I may take a unit of Wyches in an army just to see how often they can be used to tarpit a unit.

 Thor665 wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Kabalites are solid units, yeah, however they lack the utility of Wyches and die just as easily to bolt gun fire.

Arguably they die slower since they'll almost never assault something and thus take no Overwatch fire.

I also have no idea why people keep using the word 'utility' when discussing the Wyches. Since this conversation started the 'utility' appear to be 'tarpit'. That has been expanded on to list what units they can tarpit and what units they cannot. That is not actually utility to my mind, what you are saying is they are limited tarpits, who are only good at tarpitting certain things and are bad at tarpitting others. So, basically they have one job (tarpit) but can't tarpit most enemy units, only a handful of units (specifically, they tarpit things with low to no shooting that have strong but limited in number attacks in assault). I will agree that's something that they can do, but they don't actually do it with much 'utility' ecause that's actually a very specific thing.

Then we have the warrior unit who, if given a blaster, has the ability to damage basically any unit in the game with its shooting. That's actually utility because no matter what army my opponent is playing, no matter what units he does or does not bring, I know that my Warriors will be able to shoot at and hurt his army.

Meanwhile, if there is no Wraithknight or Cent/Termie shooty squad or non-flamer Dread (so, y'know, just for starters, if I'm playing against Crons, Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, or Imperial Guard - or any Space Marine or Eldar army not fielding the list noted here) then my Wyches are just derping around doing...nothing. That is not utility to my mind, that is a specialist unit with a limited number of optimal targets.

So Wyches do 1 thing well against limited targets and Warriors do 1 thing well against basically any target. I do not understand how you call Wyches as the one with utility from that pair.

Well said, Thor.

Wyches have such a limited, hyper-specific role that unless you know exactly what you'll be facing (i.e., one of the few units previously mentioned that you would feel okay about wasting points on Wyches in order to tie them up), then Warriors are always the better TAC choice.

Hollismason wrote:
Fleshcorps is a good formation, it's basically another Urian when you think about it. Of course it only affects those wracks, but that's still really good because...

Look at this

Haemonoculus w/ Fleshgauntlet , WWP, Syndriqs < Free Floating Haemonoculus that can be put in other squads to give them Fearless or just buddy up with the Grotesquerie.

10 x Wracks w/ 2 Ossefactors
Raider w/ Zilch

10 Wracks w/ 2 Ossesfactors
Raider w/ Zilch

10 Wracks w/ 2 Osseffactor
Raider w/ Zilch

That's 15 AP2 shots. 9 ST 5 , 6 2+ Fleshbane, AP2

All of those have Fearless. Get rid of 30 models with Fearless, that will be in a raider, eventually gaining Zealot on turn 4 or sooner, and they have FNP.

Add a Grotesquerie

Haemonoculus

2 Squads of Grotesques

Like the book specifically has units and formations that go together perfectly. It's kind of neat.

Here's another problem. How can the cove codex, assuming you only want to bring the coven book, deal with walkers and land raiders? ...

Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan can deal with both. Grotesquerie can put most walkers in the ground, too.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan can deal with both. Grotesquerie can put most walkers in the ground, too.

I agree that the DA and Corpsethief can handle Walkers, but how does the Grotesquerie? Aren't Walkers always hit on their front armor in CC? And since, other than War Walkers, the common Walkers are SM-type Dreadnoughts with front armor 12-13, how can Grots hurt them? They'd need to roll the +1 Strength on the Latest Experiments(?) table to even have a chance of glancing them, right?

This is somewhat of a tactica question, somewhat of a rules question I suppose. I play a lot of Necrons in my local meta and they use this HQ against me (maybe orrikan or something) who makes it so that all terrain is difficult on turn one. It's hell on my venoms and raiders because if they move they need to make two dangerous checks each.

My question is, can this power be used even if that HQ is in reserve? It says the power happens on turn one, however I was under the impression that units had to actually be on the board for their powers to be used.

 SkaredCast wrote:


Will they crumble to assault units with lots of attacks? yup... they always have.

Actually, in the original DE Codex, after the White Dwarf update, that was the type of unit that Wyches were the best at neutralizing.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Seriously, it puzzles me why people suggest squandering points on rubbish when there are so many better options in the book. It's not like we are forced to make them work.

I am just beginning to piece together a Dark Eidar army or an allied Dark Eldar/Eldar team, so I'm glad I came across this discussion. Can you please recommend a 1,800 point army for me? My LGS hasn't even obtained the new Dark Eldar codex yet, so I'm in the dark at the moment. I think that these models look great. Now, I need to figure out what to play. Thanks for any assistance.

So far, I have:

Urien Rakarth
Scourges (5)
Wyches (5)
Kalibite Warriors (!0)
Ravager

But, don't worry about what i have. I only have the models because I like the models. If regular Eldar would be great supplements, please recommend those characters (e.g., I like the Warp Spiders, Jet bikes and Wraight Knight models).

sweetbacon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan can deal with both. Grotesquerie can put most walkers in the ground, too.

I agree that the DA and Corpsethief can handle Walkers, but how does the Grotesquerie? Aren't Walkers always hit on their front armor in CC? And since, other than War Walkers, the common Walkers are SM-type Dreadnoughts with front armor 12-13, how can Grots hurt them? They'd need to roll the +1 Strength on the Latest Experiments(?) table to even have a chance of glancing them, right?

Scissorhands. The haemmy and the Aberration should both take one. They can easily manage it against walkers attacking without S10, and if they have the Toughess boost (or the walker is slim on attacks) then even that is no big deal. Don't get me wrong, they aren't ideal, but vehicles are our Achilles Heel, and walkers doubly so. The Grotesquerie is a good way to take them down, or at least it has been for me so far.

That being said, I face Penitent Engines more than anything else in the Walker front, so that might be coloring my perceptions.

 Jimsolo wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan can deal with both. Grotesquerie can put most walkers in the ground, too.

I agree that the DA and Corpsethief can handle Walkers, but how does the Grotesquerie? Aren't Walkers always hit on their front armor in CC? And since, other than War Walkers, the common Walkers are SM-type Dreadnoughts with front armor 12-13, how can Grots hurt them? They'd need to roll the +1 Strength on the Latest Experiments(?) table to even have a chance of glancing them, right?

Scissorhands. The haemmy and the Aberration should both take one. They can easily manage it against walkers attacking without S10, and if they have the Toughess boost (or the walker is slim on attacks) then even that is no big deal. Don't get me wrong, they aren't ideal, but vehicles are our Achilles Heel, and walkers doubly so. The Grotesquerie is a good way to take them down, or at least it has been for me so far.

That being said, I face Penitent Engines more than anything else in the Walker front, so that might be coloring my perceptions.

Ah, I forgot about Scissorhands. Now I see your point. Yeah, you're right that the Grotesquerie COULD deal with a Dread-type Walker in CC. But, like you said, it would not be an ideal way to do it. Other than worrying about getting ID'd by Str 10, I'm also concerned that your Fearless Grots could just get tied up for 2-3 turns in a slap fight with the Dreadnought, thereby sidelining one of your hardest hitting units. I think most opponents would be thrilled to trade a Dreadnought in exchange for neutralizing your Grots for half the game. .

You might be right. But if your options are throw the grots at it or let it tear through the rest of your army, I prefer letting the grots hit it, assuming the engines can't get over there. Even then, I assume the engines were moving in as quick as they can.

My preferred anti-tank in a coven list, though? Allies.

 Jimsolo wrote:
You might be right. But if your options are throw the grots at it or let it tear through the rest of your army, I prefer letting the grots hit it, assuming the engines can't get over there. Even then, I assume the engines were moving in as quick as they can.

My preferred anti-tank in a coven list, though? Allies.

Fair enough. I agree that the engines should be handling any Dreadnoughts in a Coven list.

I haven't tried a full Coven list. I just ally in the formations to regular DE so I have a decent amount of shooty anti-tank and punchy anti-everything.

They definitely struggle vs vehicles. I honestly prefer an 'Eldar unification' army, mixing and matching with Eldar, Iyanden, DE, Covens, and Corsairs as the list requires.

Where's the official Corsairs list/supplement - some Imperial Armour book?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Where's the official Corsairs list/supplement - some Imperial Armour book?

The Doom of Mymeara. Imperial Armour 11.

I have a Void Dragon army all painted up. They're good fun to run with Dark Eldar, plus nice and fluffy.

I really want to add some Shadow Spectres to my Coven force. I think they'd go together well.

Sounds like we may get a Harlequin Codex soon.

Like, a mini release? Or an actual codex?

Hopefully it's own codex, given the fact that they've been taken out of the DE book...

The most I've managed to pull ahead is by 4 on the first turn but that was enough to send my opponent scrambling.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Like, a mini release? Or an actual codex?

Sounds like an actual codex. The rumor is from Darnok on Warseer who has a superb track record for rumors. This is the guy who leaked Wraithblades, Spiritseers, a psychic flyer, and the Wraithknight long before the Eldar codex was released so he seems to have an inside source.

I'd be interested in a dual supplement; something that can be taken either in an Eldar or a DE army.

I'd rather they update that horse crap eldar codex so the game can get back to a healthier state.

So what is the DE answer to knights? My friends have been using them, and I really hate how GW brought them into normal 40k matches

Haywire Blasters. That will be all today class.