Would the Emperor approve of the Imperium in the 41st Millennium?

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**KingDeath**

Melissia wrote:
Heh, tolerance and peace.

More like Tau Supremacy and oppression.

Well, beats getting burned at the stake cause some Redemptionist didn't like my face. Or 16 hour workshifts in the manufactorum to afford my 4m² cubicle, which i have to share with three other workers, and the daily ration of corpsestarch. Well, unless the headworker reduced my pay cause i either didn't work fast enough ( which might or might not also lead to a death penalty for sabotage and treason) or because i didn't worship the machine, the emperor, one of the bazillion of saints properly (which might or might not lead to the death penatly heresy )

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:
While the lack of canon is true, we're provided with glimpses of a concept that is, to some degree or another, shared across the playerbase.

That current glimpse is of some Uber-Atheist bringing his Legions of Scientific Reason against The Old Bad Religions to usher in a time of peace, prosperity and academic enlightenment...

... all supposed to be enacted by a guy who makes Genghis Khan look like a chump while also being Space-Merlin. Which really doesn't make any sense, and also doesn't tie into the dark satire that 40K is known for.

It's a far more biting joke, I think, that the guy who was supposedly (and publically) all about getting rid of religion and gods was, in actuality, paving the way for his own elevation to god-hood. After all, the only thing worse than being a god is *not* being a god.

You forgot that the super scientific reason atheist also put all matters related to technology into the hands of people who worship their toasters

**Psienesis**

...Indeed. Or, possibly, in the hands of an unwitting cult dedicated to a Xeno god.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Being the only person who believes in a God at my local games workshop, the subject of God has come up many times with me being the person all the atheists can hurl ideas at, and it always ends with me being slightly uncomfortable, but anyway, that is slightly irrelevant.
However it is still slightly relevant since the imperium is used as an example of why the guy who runs the place is against religion, how far can you go simply because God says so? This then devolves into a discussion about how all these horrible acts are committed in the name of the Emprah or the chaos Gods, ect. This is followed up by a reminder of the reunification of terra, and how the Emprah rooted out the last church on Terra by burning it because science holds the answers.
Basically what I'm trying to say is no, the Emprah would not approve of the imperium as it stands in 40k.

**Psienesis**

People who take that interpretation of The Last Church are missing a very crucial bit of the story. That is, the way in which that priest views the Emperor before he steps back into his burning church.

Biased audience is biased, they're reading what they want to read, not seeing the points that run counter to it.

**SisterSydney**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Being the only person who believes in a God at my local games workshop, the subject of God has come up many times with me being the person all the atheists can hurl ideas at, and it always ends with me being slightly uncomfortable, but anyway, that is slightly irrelevant....

Oh, I think Christian theology is actually highly relevant. (Surprise! I am Episcopalian aka Anglican). Emperor-worship represents the darkest depths of making something mortal and fallible into God: It's an extreme version of the deification of The State and The Leader that went on in 20th century totalitarianism (Godwin's Law save -- passed!) and continues in North Korea. As for the Emperor himself, as a (very powerful) human, even if he was sincere in his desire to eradicate religion, he made the classic mistake of assuming that if you get rid of traditional religion, it'll be replaced by reason, when in fact you often discover traditional religion, for all its faults, was at least inoculating your population against all believing in whatever faddish superstition came along.

As for the Imperial Cult itself, obviously it's a dark satire of Medieval Christianity, but it's worth noting that it's Christianity with, literally, all of the good bits cut out: no Golden Rule, no Good Shepherd, no "God is love," no "love thy neighbor as thyself," no "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

**Wyzilla**

SisterSydney wrote:
CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Being the only person who believes in a God at my local games workshop, the subject of God has come up many times with me being the person all the atheists can hurl ideas at, and it always ends with me being slightly uncomfortable, but anyway, that is slightly irrelevant....

Oh, I think Christian theology is actually highly relevant. (Surprise! I am Episcopalian aka Anglican). Emperor-worship represents the darkest depths of making something mortal and fallible into God: It's an extreme version of the deification of The State and The Leader that went on in 20th century totalitarianism (Godwin's Law save -- passed!) and continues in North Korea. As for the Emperor himself, as a (very powerful) human, even if he was sincere in his desire to eradicate religion, he made the classic mistake of assuming that if you get rid of traditional religion, it'll be replaced by reason, when in fact you often discover traditional religion, for all its faults, was at least inoculating your population against all believing in whatever faddish superstition came along.

As for the Imperial Cult itself, obviously it's a dark satire of Medieval Christianity, but it's worth noting that it's Christianity with, literally, all of the good bits cut out: no Golden Rule, no Good Shepherd, no "God is love," no "love thy neighbor as thyself," no "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

There were the Crusaders too. Hell, some of the gak the Teutonic Order attempted to pull was so insanely stupid it makes some of the zanier actions in 40k look competent.

**SisterSydney**

Oh, the Crusaders were pretty consistently awful. But there was always that other side of Christianity, however suppressed, to whisper in people's ears "maybe you shouldn't murder everyone." In 40K, it's "when in doubt, thou shalt murder everyone."

**e.earnshaw**

I don't think he would approve but would forgive.
For your average imperial citizen they have to believe "THE EMPORER PROTECTS"
as the giant gribbley daemon eats their face.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

I get the sense that when I say I believe in God, people assume that I am Christian. this is wrong, I am Jewish, just in case that clears anything up.

**SisterSydney**

Oops! Sorry. Well, we Christians are basically a heretical splinter sect of Judaism anyway, sorta.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Yeah, they are, except whilst the Imperial Creed is larger than all the offshoots and cults, Christianity now dwarfs Judaism.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

SisterSydney wrote:
Oh, the Crusaders were pretty consistently awful. But there was always that other side of Christianity, however suppressed, to whisper in people's ears "maybe you shouldn't murder everyone." In 40K, it's "when in doubt, thou shalt murder everyone."

Eh, armies in general were usually quite horrible. Goes with the whole war thing. Also talking about the Crusades or crusaders in such general terms is not a good idea; some were involved in different centuries, continents and targets. Overall I'd say they are demonised (relative to what else happened during the medieval period) far more they should be.

Regardless while the Imperial Creed is far more violent (actually it seems pretty much all about serving the Emperor and doing violence to others) than real life religions it does have such tenets for good reason. Whether or not it gives a morally correct guideline it does help to keep mankind alive in the 41st millennium. Fighting the xeno and the heretic is necessary to hold a fractured humanity together.

As for the Emperor and his actions I'm inclined to hold my judgement until his motives have been elaborated on. As of now it seems like some of his actions have been illogical and frankly idiotic. Destroying religion despite the fact that the Ruinous Powers as far as I know feed off of emotion rather than belief (and the act of stamping out religion in and off itself would generate a huge emotional backlash feed the Ruinous Powers), destroying Monarchia without giving warnings to Lorgar first and various other things.

**Naberiel**

SisterSydney wrote:
Oops! Sorry. Well, we Christians are basically a heretical splinter sect of Judaism anyway, sorta.

Well..I am Christian and its seems that you dont know much about this religion

no offense...basically relgions ARENT bad... but they start be when fanatism get involved.

**SisterSydney**

Well, you can also argue Christianity and modern (Torah & Talmud-centered) Judaism are both offshoots of the classical priestly, ritualistic Judaism that was destroyed with the Temple in 70 CE... but that's getting a bit off topic.

On topic, the Emperor seems like a dick. I'd love to write revisionist fanfic someday explaining what he was really thinking.

**Psienesis**

Naberiel wrote:
SisterSydney wrote:
Oops! Sorry. Well, we Christians are basically a heretical splinter sect of Judaism anyway, sorta.

Well..I am Christian and its seems that you dont know much about this religion no offense...basically relgions ARENT bad... but they start be when fanatism get involved.

Any religion is fine so long as its strictures are not enforced (or attempted to be enforced) upon those who don't share the same beliefs... but that's not how the Imperial Creed functions. The Imperium is a theocracy, where the Church and the State are one and the same.

**Naberiel**

Sis thats just so true

Psi sure, sadly there are pople that dont understand difference between enforcing and exhortation

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Naberiel wrote:
Sis thats just so true

Psi sure, sadly there are pople that dont understand difference between enforcing and exhortation

Like missionaries. No, I don't want to believe in Jesus, thank you very much.

**Wyzilla**

SisterSydney wrote:
Oh, the Crusaders were pretty consistently awful. But there was always that other side of Christianity, however suppressed, to whisper in people's ears "maybe you shouldn't murder everyone." In 40K, it's "when in doubt, thou shalt murder everyone."

Eh, some of the Orders had some competency to them. The Teutonic Order however was riding in the short yellow schoolbus, and is seen as an example in the dictionary under idiocy. These are the guys that thought that fighting "heathen slavs" (who were orthodox christians mind you) needed to be purged, and thus decided to fight the Russians on a frozen lake. The ice broke either due to weight of the templars or actions by the Russians, and the Russians drowned them all.

Then there was the time when the Teutonic Order was working for Poland. The Poles wanted them to sack the local pagans and give their land to the Polish nobles. The Teutonic order instead massacred the pagans (and probably some poles), took their territory, and attempted to found their own nation before the Poles evicted them with force.

**Naberiel**

I could start typing atrocities committed by ateists, but again this is not a thread about that...

**KingDeath**

edit: oops, wrong thread

**Inkubas**

This is in no way the way that the Emperor intended things to be. At some point he's settled on this reality. I believe the Emperor wanted to create a secular, unified humanity that used the Eldar webway instead of the warp. He also hoped to use the primarchs as governors.
He also didn't create the Inquisition. Malchador did to deal with chaos. The only thing big E did was order exterminatous before being tossed into the golden throne.