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So, disturbed by the complete lack of upgrade options for the Imperial Knights, I decided to go ahead and make some of my own.
When a Tyranid Hive Fleet was spotted approaching the sector of their homework, House Phoenix realized that, as they stood, even if they maximized their production of Knights, they stood no chance of defeating the alien menace. Knowing this, they and their notably independent Sacristans committed the ultimate sin: Innovation.
Examining patterns of Archeotech and Alien technology, they derived a number of devices that, when affixed to a Knight, provided a number of advantages in combat. (Though to be honest, most of the things they developed were just common sense upscaled versions of normal wargear)
So far, I've thought of three upgrades:
Backpack Missile Launcher (50 Points): After witnessing a trio of Knights be ripped apart by flying Tryanid monstrosities, the Sacristans of house Pheonix developed this system. A backpack mounted derivation of the Whirlwind Hyperios Missile launcher, this device accelerates missiles to a considerable speed before launch, increasing their range and flight ceiling
.
Range: 60'', S 8, AP 3, Heavy 2, Skyfire
Jump Pack and Gravatic Support (40 points)(Cerastus Knights Only) : By reducing the weight of the Knight and allowing it to travel across the battlefield in quick succession of powered 'hops, the Knight can move more quickly and avoid the worst of dangerous terrain. The Knight may move 18'' in the movement phase, and re-roll charge distances.
Cavalier Assault Launcher (25 points): The Knight acts as though it has Assault and Defensive grenades, ignoring the penlites for charging through difficult terrain, penalizing units that charge them, and so forth. In addition, the Knight may shoot with the Grenade Launcher, with the following profile:
I have to say they look interesting but the jump pack rule won't make sense with the HH IK army list. Mainly because you can upgrade knights to fast attack and they get 24 inches as their move rate.
I, too, occasionally lose a game with the Adamantine Lance. I agree that removing the formation's weaknesses should address this issue quite effectively.
raverrn wrote: I, too, occasionally lose a game with the Adamantine Lance. I agree that removing the formation's weaknesses should address this issue quite effectively.
What do you mean? Maybe an Improved communications array/shield projector to allow the Knights to be 6 or 7 inches apart and still re-roll their saves.
e.earnshaw wrote: What a?bout an advanced targeting matrix for each knight targeting a unit +1 bs 25pt a knight?
That sounds like a pretty good idea. It could be a 'cockpit' upgrade that competed with space for something else. Although maybe instead of a Ballistic Skill enchantment, it reduced Scatter on its main weapons somewhat, like what a Servo-Skull does, or allow the Knight to Re-Roll the scatter dice. I say this because most Knight weapons are Blast, which benefit less from Ballistic Skill upgrades.
What do you think of my first three ideas?
Other ideas I had:
Armored Ceramite (20 points): Self Explanatory, negates the Melta rule.
Allomatic Invulnerability (50 points?): Negates Lance and Melta rules, -1 to rolls on the penetrating hit table.
Micro Defense Lasers (35 points?): Negates the first hit with the 'barrage' special rule (or from a missile?) the Knight suffers each turn. Also grants the knight a fistful of Str 3 AP - melee attacks for de-tarpitting.
Internal Field Bracing (??? Points): Ion Shield Saves may be taken against Destroyer hits, -1 to rolls on the destroyer table, and -1 to all loses of hull points above 1. For example, Sir Adolin of House Kholin, whose Knight Paladin posses Internal Field Bracing) suffers a hit from a Traitor Shadowsword's Volcano Cannon, a 6 is rolled on the Destroyer table. Rather than being destroyed (as he would lose a minimum of 6 hull points), Adolin suffers a loss of d3 Hull Points. A 3 is rolled, and this value is reduced to 2. Adolin loses 2 hull points, and lives to have is revenge on the traitors that dared attempt to bring him low.
Reactive Targeting Sensors: Not really sure about this one. Basically gives the Knight a free shot against the first unit to shott/hit/glance/pen it each turn.
First of all, you can't use Horus Heresy options in regular games of 40k without your opponent's consent. They're a different era.
Secondly, what they have there isn't really what I'm going for. They have upgrades to the pilot's skillset, but what I'm going for are mechanical upgrades to the Knight Chassis itself.
"The Horus Heresy Book Four – Conquest is a complete expansion for the Warhammer 40,000 game and can be used independently of the previous Horus Heresy expansion books – it only requires the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook to use."
"While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case. "
Plus, you're completely ignoring my primary point: What the Horus Hersy Books offer is nothing like what I'm going for. i'm trying to desigin upgrades to the Giant Robots, not their pilots. All Book 4 - Conquest offers is pilot upgrades.
Heir of the Void wrote: "While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case. "
Plus, you're completely ignoring my primary point: What the Horus Hersy Books offer is nothing like what I'm going for. i'm trying to desigin upgrades to the Giant Robots, not their pilots. All Book 4 - Conquest offers is pilot upgrades.
Um.. no? If you actually read the books they offer upgrades to the knights via different guns movement speed etc.
Point Defense Array (35-40 points, replaces chest-mounted Heavy Stubber): Provides the Knight with a 3+ Invulnerable save against Barrage weapons and Missiles. This save increases to 2+ for a Seneschal and decreases to 4+ for Knights Apparent. In addition, any model that rolls a 1 to hit in close combat with the Knight is immediately hit with a S3 AP- attack (Or maybe S2 AP2). This also applies to enemies that roll a 2 to hit a Knight Seneschal.
Giant Manga Grapple: Unsure on how exactly this should work. I'm not sure If I want it to work like the old Manga Grapple, as that makes sense on a superheavy, or the new one, granting an extra d6 of charge range against enemy vehicles.
These are some really cool ideas. Just be careful with costing! A weapon like the backpack you can (relatively) easily extrapolate from comparable upgrades to other vehicles, but something which makes the whole vehicle faster (jump pack) or more survivable (ceramite) should cost a lot more on a superheavy than on a regular vehicle.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
1) Carapace (not really 'backpack') missile launcher. Fine - and indeed canonical. The 'Warden' knight - one of the original models in epic - had a big-arse missile box on its back. That said, if you want to add this weapons without removing anything, there has to be limits on its size and firepower. Something better than an AA tank's primary armament is akin to an arm weapon, not something you can bolt on without any downside. I would either give it a downside (slowing the walker down or reducing the rear armour) or reduce its killyness - a skyhammer missile launcher (the stormtalon's air-to-air missiles would be about right).
2) Jump pack - I'm not sure if a knight specifically needs speeding up, but being able to ignore difficult terrain would be a big boost. Fleet is an easy one. This needs to be an expensive upgrade, though - as noted, the bigger the thing you strap it to, the more valuable it is. I'm not sure there's any really background to this one - yes, the revenant titan jumps, but a bunch of sacristans from the buttock end of nowhere aren't going to be duplicating Eldar titan systems especially effectively.
3) The cavalier assault launcher makes sense. I would massively rein in the stats, though - 'thrown' grenades - the ones which are of use on the charge - will still only be 8" range. You might see a big volley of them fired off (like the big rack on the front of the ironclad) but the individual grenades will be normal - I'd recommend assault grenades/defensive grenades with assault (many) rather than a whirlwind round.
4) Armoured ceramite. Seriously, for the love of ***** will people stop putting this on everything! (sorry for the rant - but one thing I dislike about the heresy books is everything has it, at which point what's the point of having melta weapons?). Also, may be a bit cheap for a superheavy to have it; might up it by ten to fifteen points.
5) Allomantic invulnerability - if that's ment to be the one from the Achilles it's ferromantic invulnerability. That's a mostly irrelevant upgrade - with only one facing better than AV12 and that only AV13, lance is pretty irrelevant anyway, and the only damage result that matters is explodes, so the -1 damage result is (largely) irrelevant too. I'd just ignore this one.
6) Defence Lasers - "Missile" isn't a weapon type anymore, and some barrage-type weapons are big lumps of energy as well as shells (orbital strike, for example). I like the idea of some point defence capability, but would just make this an upgrade to the heavy stubbers, as suggested later.
7) Just plain no. If you get hit with a '6' from a volcano cannon, you are dead. Deal with it. If you really, really want the possibility of survival, give the knight the ability to trade its ion shields for a number of void shields.
8) Reactive targeting sensors - sounds like a good source for 'interceptor' to me. Make it pretty expensive - being able to land heavy weapons on a squad that's just deep struck in is very valuable - just ask every riptide pilot ever.
9) Point defence array - Over-complicated. Have it do just one thing. I wouldn't have it replace the stubber - it's got to be firing something. Secondly, if it's chest-mounted it's going to be arc-specific, and unlike the ion shield, can't be shifted. Maybe give the ion shield a reroll against barrage weapons hitting the front arc (because some hits get taken down before they reach the shield).
10) The "ursus claw" is a big assault harpoon from the horus heresy. That would replace an arm weapon, though - drop the knight's ranged weapon for a hard-hitting short ranged attack, an improved charge distance, and possibly a blind/concussive combination.
For comparison, I homebrewed a Knight with jump jets for my Sisters of Battle fandex -- it can even Deep Strike! -- but it's not an upgrade, the whole Knight is built around it, losing all long-range weapons and being unable to operate the Ion Shield at the same time as it uses the jump jets (power limitations). I also costed the jump jet/deep strike combo alone at 75 points.
Full rules below in spoilers:
KNIGHT ANGELUS
A winged Knight Titan that strikes from the heavens WS:4 BS:4 S:10 Armour:13/12/12 I:4 A:3 HP:6
Spoiler:
Unit Type: vehicle (super-heavy walker)
Unit Composition: 1 Knight Angelus
Wargear: Heavy Bolter; Reaper Chainsword*; Ion Shield*
* see Imperial Knight rules
Pillar of Fire Range:0" S:7 AP:3 Ordnance 1, Massive Blast, Jump Jet Exhaust
Jump Jet Exhaust: The Pillar of Fire is simply the fiery exhaust of the Angelus's jump jets, directed as a weapon. The Pillar of Fire uses the Massive Blast marker instead of a flamer or hellstorm template but otherwise follows all the rules for Template weapons.
When the Knight Angelus uses its Wings of Light (below) to Deep Strike, it must make a Pillar of Fire attack immediately on landing (see Hammer of Heaven, below). When the Knight uses its Wings of Light to move or charge, it must make one Pillar of Fire attack before the move or charge and a second immediately after.
The Pillar of Fire may also fire normally during the Shooting Phase or as Overwatch, which does not affect its ability to make the special attacks above or to use its Wings of Light: There is plenty of fuel to burn, and the Knight can vent it without moving if desired.
Wings of Light:
The Knight Angelus may use its Wings of Light once per turn to do one and only one of the following:
- to enter play by Deep Strike (once per game, obviously!), after which it must make a Pillar of Fire Attack (see Hammer of Heaven, below); or
- during the Movement Phase, to make a Pillar of Fire attack, move up to 18", and then make a second Pillar of Fire attack; or]
- during the Assault Phase, to make a Pillar of Fire attack, make its charge move -- rerolling the distance if desired -- and then to make another Pillar of Fire attack, which is resolved before assault.
While using the Wings of Light, the Knight Angelus can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, it cannot end its move on top of other models and can only end its move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the model on top of it.
However, whenever the Knight Angelus uses its Wings of Light, it may not use its Ion Shield until its after its next Movement Phase.
Special Rules:
Deep Strike
Shield of Faith
Hammer of Heaven:
The Knight Angelus descends like a hammer from heaven, scouring the infidels with jet exhausting before smashing them beneath its adamantium heels. When the Knight Angelus enters play by Deep Strike, it suffers a mishap as normal if it lands on top of or within 1" of a Gargantuan Creature, Super-Heavy Vehicle, or Super-Heavy Walker.
However, if the Knight lands on top of or within 1" of any other unit, the Knight does not mishap. Instead, it immediately makes, first, a Pillar of Fire attack, and, second, a Stomp attack on the unit(s) within 1". Once both attacks are resolved, the Knight is then immediately moved the minimum distance so as to be no longer within 1" of any surviving model. Note the Knight must make these attacks even if the units landed on are friendly.
A Knight Angelus suffers a mishap as normal if it lands on top of impassible terrain or partially or wholly of the board.
Limited Power:
The arcane force field projectors that generate the Knight Angelus' Wings of Light are the same that generate its Ion Shield, and they lack the power to sustain both at once. Whenever the Knight Angelus uses its Wings of Light, it may not use its Ion Shield until its after its next Movement Phase.
A Tale of Two Armies:
Knights-Angelus go to war alongside other Knights as well as the Adepta Sororitas. A Knight Angelus is a Lord of War for a Codex:Adepta Sororitas army.
Alternatively, Knights Angelus may be chosen as part of a Codex: Imperial Knights army as you would other types of Knight. However, owing to their rarity in the 41st Millennium, you may not have more Knights Angelus in your army than you have Knights of other kinds.
Some Knight Houses swear fealty directly to the Imperium, others to the Adeptus Mechanicus, but a few devote themselves to the Ecclesiarchy. For their piety and fealty, these holy warriors -- a disproportionate number of them female -- are rewarded with a unique pattern of Knight: the Angelus.
At rest, the Knight Angelus merely seems more streamlined and elegant than conventional Knights, as well as more lightly armed. Only the telltale exhaust tubes of jump jets betray its unique nature. When the Knight Angelus activates for battle, however, from its back unfold enormous shimmering fields of energy. These Wings of Light allow the Knight Angelus to fly for brief periods or even to leap from a low-orbiting spacecraft onto the very head of the infidel, using its jet exhaust to burn and its sheer mass to smash.
The Angelus' unique technology has a weakness, however: The arcane generators that project the Wings of Light are the same apparatus that produces the Knight's Ion Shield -- but they cannot generate both at once. Thus at any given moment, the pilot must choose between mobility and defense.
Design Notes
Spoiler:
I'm using Ovion's costing rules, but since his are calibrated for normal vehicles, not Super Heavies, I'm multiplying all the costs by three.
So, starting with a Knight Paladin:
REPLACE
2 Heavy Stubbers w/ 1 heavy bolter: +/-0
Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon (72" S:8 AP:3 Ordnance 2, Large Blast) with
Pillar of Fire: 0" S:7 AP:3 Ordnance 1, Massive Blast, Barrage, Ignores Cover, Wall Of Death, No Escape, Jump Jet Exhaust) -- you lose 72" of range (!) and 1 shot (unless you're jumping) but gain the 3 special rules normally associated with Template weapons, plus a large blast radius: let's call it a wash, though I could argue it's a much less versatile weapon.
ADD
1) Wings of Light & Deep Strike:
- basically a Jump Unit, albeit without Hammer of Wrath (15 pts normally, x3 for Superheavy): +45
- wait, vehicles can't normally be Jump Units! (10 pts x3): +30
2) Hammer of Heaven:
- Partially immune to Deep Strike mishaps (10 pts x3): +30
- Holy feth, can ATTACK on a Deep Strike? (10 pts x3): +30
3) Shield of Faith, which gives you a 6++ whenever you can't use the Ion Shield's 4++ instead, as well as Adamantium Will in case some one decides to try a psychic power on a super-heavy for some reason (10 pts x3): +30
SUBTRACT:
Limited Power: a major restriction on its Ion Shield: -20
Net: +145 points
145 + 375 = 520, round up to a tidy 525
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
OK, so thanks for the replies. The Jump Jet seems to be a point of contention here, and my intention was more for an upgrade that allowed a Knight, particularly the CQC oriented ones, more move. The intent was never for a flying/deep striking Knight. I'm sorry if I wasn't very clear on that point.
SisterSidney; I like you Knight Angelus, but feel that was exactly what I wasn't going for. I was just going for a Knight that can jump a little, and maybe move a little faster. Maybe some kind of Improved Rapid Motion Servos.
And to define a few upgrades in order:
The Backpack Missile Launcher: There is a pretty big difference bettwen the 'tank' weapons mounted on a Rhino or Chimera Chasis than someting more than twice as good as something on a Leman Russ Chasis, which is the standard for Knight Arm Weapons. I think that a carapace/backpack mounted version of the Hyperios Launcher x2 is reasonable. One think that someone else on another Forum proposed is rapid-fire vertically launched Flakk Missiles. Something like a 48+'' S7 AP 4 Heavy 3-4 Skyfire option might work too.
The Cavalier Assault Launcher seems like we are in relative agreement on. Basically, I was invisioning the Large Blast being that it is launching lots of grenades at once to saturate a large area, and the Increased range is because the Knight is around 6 times taller than a human throwing a grenade, and is launching the grenade with greater force, and thus can launch grenades a considerably greater distance.
As for the Point-Defence Array, I really like this concept, but I'm having trouble thinking of how exactly it would work. Do you have any ideas, SisterSidney? The problem is, I think Barrage weapons ignore shields as it, as they always hit nonspecific 'side' armor, and the Ion Shield can only protect one specific side, if projected in that direction.
And Internal Field Bracing... Ok, this is something that bothers me. Why is it that an average Leman Russ, or an Infantryman, for that matter, is exactly as dead as a huge(ish) Knight when hit by a destroyer weapon? Maybe and upgrade to the Ion shield that allows it to be taken against Destroyer Weapon hits?
As for Reactive Targeting Sensors, It probably needs a more Gothic name, but Interceptor sounds like a good idea. Maybe I think somewhere in the 50 to 75 point range. Maybe one price for regular Knights and another for Cerastus Knights, which have less firepower?
I'm not saying the backpack missile launcher is on a par with an arm weapon, but that it's good enough you should have to give up something (other than just points) to fit it in. The Skyhammer (which is a 3-shot flakk missile, as you describe) is something I can see fitting as a bolt-on without needing to explain where the power/volume is coming from. An extended-range typhoon launcher is pushing it a bit.
That's kind of the reason I was saying what I was saying with the cavalier. The Knight itself isn't throwing the grenade - unless, again, it's replacing something on the arm or whatever.
A bunch of grenades in a flat-pack launcher on the chest will essentially behave like an ironclad assault launcher - firing a bunch of frag grenades 8". If you want to have an autofiring grenade launcher, have it replace a heavy stubber with a grenade machine gun (something like the tauros grenade launcher's statline?). I'd rather see flat-packs, because a lancer has no secondary weapon to replace.
Barrage weapons determine their facing relative to the centre hole - they hit front, back or side depending on their scatter. I'm not sure on what facing a barrage which lands 'dead on' counts as hitting - I think it still hits the appropriate quadrant but not sure on that.
Suggestion? Barrage weapons count as originating from the direction of the firer for the purposes of ion shield saves. I.e. if the basilisk is in front of you, and you have your shield set forwards, and point defence up, you still get a save even if the shell goes over your head and explodes behind you.
Because there isn't a case of 'more dead than dead'. About 66% of the time, so is a baneblade and an (unshielded) scout titan, both of which are even bigger and more expensive than a knight. Destroyer weapons are titan-killer guns and a knight is not a titan, it's a sentinal scout walker with delusions of grandeur. If you take a perfect, dead-on hit from something which can slice a warhound titan in two, a forcefield generator designed to stop antitank missiles is going to do nothing except overload and blow up inside the knight....
As to the reactive sensors - I'd stick with a single price. Cerastus knights may have less firepower, but they have firepower which is better suited to the job - the hellstorm template flamer, and the twin-linked castigator's bolt minigun that can realistically interceptor a light fighter out of the sky before it gets to shoot itself.
OK, so the Vertical Launching Flakk Missiles will be Heavy 3 S7 AP 4 Skyfire weapons. Or maybe Heavy 4 with no option to target ground units? S 7 isn't going to do much to AV 12 fliers, which are the bulk of the competitive ones, so I think Heavy 4 might be fair.
For the Cavalier Grenade Launcher, I still think that maybe thrown Grenades with extra range might work? Maybe something like a mutli-shot handheld grenade launcher? I still like the idea of the Deathstorm launcher, just for simplicity's sake.
OK, so the Point Defense Array v2.0 (50 Points)
If a Knight has purchased this upgrade, it is outfitted with an array of disruptive beams that can, with the help of the Knight pilot's considerable mental prowess and the Knight's formidable Machine Spirt, target and destroy incoming weapons. If the Knight has its Ion Shield facing the direction of an incoming Barrage or Missile weapon, it may always make an Ion Shield Save against the attack, and may re-roll failed Ion Shield Saves. (Should the save also be imporved by 1 point? I don't know...)
In addition, if the Knight is engaged in Close Combat and an enemy rolls a '1' on its to-hit roll, that enemy immediately suffers a (S 3 AP 3?) hit. This ability activates on a 1 or a 2 if the Knight in question is a Seneschal.
Not if you've got a reroll too. Rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves are essentially "don't even bother". I've no objection to a bit of wargear to stop a guard player aiming for the back edge of your base and claiming you get no shield save, because that's a fairly gittish thing to do, but at the same time I would have a pretty big problem with an upgrade which essentially makes you immune to what may be the only heavyweight gun in the army.
Point Defense Array is tricky.... I don't have any brilliant ideas as yet. Maybe making the incoming barrage roll 3D6 for scatter and take the highest two dice? That might be too powerful.
I will say that this feature
In addition, if the Knight is engaged in Close Combat and an enemy rolls a '1' on its to-hit roll, that enemy immediately suffers a (S 3 AP 3?) hit. This ability activates on a 1 or a 2 if the Knight in question is a Seneschal.
is a lot of extra complication for not much extra effect. I'd recommend dropping it.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I think the Scatter thing might be a bit powerful, and it doesn't really make sense. It's not like the shells are maneuvering to evade incoming fire; I don't think any 40k weapons are that 'smart'.
True. "Smart" and "40K" don't often go together in general....
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Jump Pack and Gravatic Support (40 points)(Cerastus Knights Only) : By reducing the weight of the Knight and allowing it to travel across the battlefield in quick succession of powered 'hops, the Knight can move more quickly and avoid the worst of dangerous terrain. The Knight may move 18'' in the movement phase, and re-roll charge distances.
Knights are excellent already, and giving them ignore dangerous terrain would already be crazy. But giving them 18" in the open and fleet ? WTF. Do you know how overpowered that would make them ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ustrello wrote: I have to say they look interesting but the jump pack rule won't make sense with the HH IK army list. Mainly because you can upgrade knights to fast attack and they get 24 inches as their move rate.
Armored Ceramite (20 points): Self Explanatory, negates the Melta rule.
Allomatic Invulnerability (50 points?): Negates Lance and Melta rules, -1 to rolls on the penetrating hit table.
Micro Defense Lasers (35 points?): Negates the first hit with the 'barrage' special rule (or from a missile?) the Knight suffers each turn. Also grants the knight a fistful of Str 3 AP - melee attacks for de-tarpitting.
The IK still has a few weaknesses, it's better like that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/17 16:04:29
