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As a lot of 40k players are well aware, there are a great many humans aligned with the Tau Empire. These humans are called "Gue'Vesa", which means "Human Helper" in the Tau tongue. This means that they call humans either 'Gue' or 'Vesa', which both seem equally degrading. Regardless, the intricacies of alien languages is not the focus of this thread, but is rather the possibilities behind the Gue'Vesa. I'm appearantly not the only one who is frustrated with Geedubs' complete lack of interest towards this sub-faction, as I actually got multiple requests for this kind of thread after posting a section of rules for a custom Gue'Vesa squad I use as part of alternate IG Codex.

So, by now, you're probably asking "Get to the point already, you bloody mongrel", and that's exactly what I'm going to do. You see, over the past few years of being an IG/Tau player, I've slowly worked on the aforementioned alternate Codex for the Imperial Guard. At first, it was completely broken, with markerlights and railguns everywhere. Fortunately, after maturing both in body and mind, I believe that this homemade Codex has taken shape. Here's a sample piece(the post that got me requests to make this thread), a replacement for Veteran Squads:



However, this thread is not all about how I do things. While your criticisms on this bit of the rules I've written are highly appreciated, I'd also like to ask you lovely folks about how you do your Gue'Vesa. My method of just re-writing the entire IG codex can't be the only one, and likely isn't even the best.

I think this is a cool idea, and one worth exploring.

However, as much as I am all for balance in custom armies - I'm far more interested in armies that bring something new and interesting to the table.

I'll explain. As an example, the differences between Chaos Space Marines and Loyalist Space Marines are quite considerable, despite having similar equipment and statlines. The kind of engines of war they have access to, the special powers and abilities of their characters and sergeants, the army-wide bonus rules... these all affect the play style of these armies in ways that make them feel unique and interesting.

I think the Gue'vesa should be more than just guardsmen with some up-gunning and different equipment (although that's a good idea too!). I'd like to see some army-wide special rules and new units. Some funky mechanics that change things up. True, this is much harder to balance - but it's far from impossible, just takes a bit of work and probably some playtesting, which is part of the fun IMO

Regular Guard have the orders system, for example - with the usual command structure subverted for the Tau's, how would this change?

Imperial Guard are also known for their ability to take and hold ground - something inherently abhorrent to the Tau way of war. What changes could reflect this shift in tactics? Maybe some more mobile, rapid-response type units, and less big static gun batteries and the like.

Ultimately it's up to you how much work you want to put in to a custom army list, and you should just do what seems the most fun to play for you. Regardless I hope my suggestions have been cause for inspiration - I'll be thinking on this too, and if I have any concrete ideas I'll post them here. Cheers

I would like to see some kind of upgrade to allow for Sergeants to take something like a Pulse Carbine or Pulse Rifle. Guevesa will always get the gak duty, as Firewarriors are obviously more elite, so having Guevesa that feel elite and have elite point costs feels wrong to me. I feel like they should have a function that is in effect closer to a cultist, a cheap scoring unit that holds objectives. Maybe an option to take a Devilfish as a DT?

Its a cool idea and yet another missed opportunity for GW - Tau conversion kit for Imperial Guard anyone?

Will you keep the standard Transport options - recovered imperial vehicles?

Ku’ten vos’kla (Those who guide wisely)
The Tau train humans from former Imperial worlds which have embraced the Greater Good in order to help them with the difficult process of intregating these new populations. They are brought in after any conflict has abated and are tasked with helping whats left of any local authorities to rebuild their world, whilst also promoting the Tau way of life.

Maybe include some of these as HQ options (advisors)

Or you could include the option to take a Tau advisor in a Gue'Vesa detachment, either in the Company Command Squad, as an independent character, or even in a squad as the replacement for the sergeant.

Tactically, I suspect the Tau would be happy to let their ex-Imperial Guard grunts take and hold ground, serving as an ablative anvil to the Tau's high-tech hammer. Yes, more Gue'Vesa will die, but it's not like humans are really people, y'know?

I think Jambles' point about Orders is very on the mark. Since Gue'Vesa by definition have broken the chain of command, they might have lost the corpse-obedience characteristic of the IG. Instead perhaps they get access to markerlights on a limited basis, e.g. only Platoon and Company Command Squads and/or Tau advisors are trained to use them?

Also, to belabor the obvious, there should be no Commissar, Ministorum Priests, or relics: All those guys fled, were left behind, died fighting, got fragged by the IG defectors, or got shot by the Tau.

Another limitation you might think of is heavy artillery: The Tau don't do cannons, and it might be really hard to find reloads for your Basilik, Wyvern, etc.

Been up for the past 21 hours. Forgive me if my post quality isn't completely up to snuff.

Jambles wrote:*Snip*

Yes, the idea of brand new units, models and special rules is something that I've been trying to get at for some time. However, I'm total garbage at creating brand new mechanics, and haven't had much success at creating new things that aren't entirely broken. Granted, I have created two different "things" that seem to incorporate well-- Markerlights that have to be snap-fired, and a Railgun Russ. I'll get into these in a moment.

As for the changes in tactics, there is a difference. You see, I typically use these Alternate IG alongside an allied Tau detatchment. The typical strategy is essentially as follows: Chimeras with Tau-Veterans charge the enemy line while being backed by supporting fire from XV88 and XV104 Battlesuits. Fire Warriors sit on rear objectives, TauVets secure forward objectives once the enemy lines have been broken by overwhelming volleys of railgun and melta/GL fire.

In other words, this tactic isn't traditional IG tactics, nor is it traditional Tau tactics. It is a general combination of both additudes. It is also worth mentioning that this tends to kick the crap out other IG armies.

ultimentra wrote:*Snip*

I try to avoid outright give the IG units Tau vehicles, because that's the easy way. You can give Gue'Vesa Piranhas and Crisis Suits, but that's a little too, well, typical. If you're going to make the Gue'Vesa as FW with WS3, then just make slightly more expensive FW.

Mr Morden wrote:*Snip*

This is a good idea-- I can see this sort of thing being useful. Maybe even "Mixed" squads, with both Humans and Tau working together to represent the more intergrated worlds?

SisterSydney wrote:*Snip*

You are very correct. Gue'Vesa won't have the same Orders system, or even a system like that at all. I hadn't come up with anything unique for them yet, as I honestly can't think up anything that would be feasible. I keep asking myself, what makes the Gue'Vesa so unique? Well, to be honest, that question isn't that easy. While it's easy to define what exactly makes them unique in the fluff, I've had an astonishingly difficult time figuring out what could be done in the crunch. All that seems to come through is IG vehicles and personnel with Tau weapons duct-taped on. While that seems correct fluff-wise, it isn't as interesting.

And yes, anything that involves the Imperium dogma (Commisars, Priests, Psykers) have all already been stripped clean. I always hated Psykers, anyway.

Lastly, most expensive/rare/heavy IG vehicles (Demolisher, Manticore, Deathstrike, Executioner) have been removed. In their stead, there are vehicles such as a repurposed Chimera with Burst Cannons strapped to the multilasers. A personal favorite of mine is a Russ using a Railgun, which likes to blow up everything it looks at.

Actually, you know what? I should transcribe the Alternate Codex (it's written on pen and paper) onto digital format and have you guys just tear it up and add to it. I hadn't done it before because I didn't think people cared, but also because I'm a lazy sod. Mostly the latter. Anyway, whaddya' say?

the gue'vesa should not be BS4, most of the IG turncoats are not veterans, as they don't give up and turn as easily as regular troops.

they should also keep the old gue'vesa rule of facing an IG oriented codex, giving all IG opponents prefer enemy against gue'vesa.

I don't agree with BS4. If Kroot are the melee guys and Tau are the shooty guys, then Gue'Vesa should be a balance between the two.

Big Mac wrote:the gue'vesa should not be BS4, most of the IG turncoats are not veterans, as they don't give up and turn as easily as regular troops.

they should also keep the old gue'vesa rule of facing an IG oriented codex, giving all IG opponents prefer enemy against gue'vesa.

Actually, most IG turncoats are veterans who were left behind on Tau-held worlds by the Imperium, if I recall correctly. However, you are correct in regards the Perferred enemy. I allow our local IG player to have the Preferred Enemy rule against everything in my army that has humans in it.

natpri771 wrote:I don't agree with BS4. If Kroot are the melee guys and Tau are the shooty guys, then Gue'Vesa should be a balance between the two.

This is a valid point. However, if I'm going to be honest here, the Kroot don't make great shock troops against anything bigger than a GEQ. In practice, I've found that the Kroot make much better snipers than they make assault troops. By extension, there is a similar application to the Gue'Vesa. They might have one description fluff-wise, but in the crunch, it's a completely different case.

Also, you both should keep in mind that the example unit posted above is a replacment for veterans, and BS3 platoon Gue'Vesa are still present.

I think the experience of becoming an IG Veteran might be enough to make you want to defect from the Imperium, actually.

And I reiterate that I think the logical replacement for Orders would be limited access to markerlights.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I think the experience of becoming an IG Veteran might be enough to make you want to defect from the Imperium, actually.

And I reiterate that I think the logical replacement for Orders would be limited access to markerlights.

Mhm. I personally like the idea of having Markerlights that can only be fired as Snap Shots. This represents how the Gue'Vesa have extremely limited training with them in comparison to their Fire Caste counterparts, and prevents ridiculously broken things like a BS5+ Punisher Russ or BS5+ Vendetta.

Ah, so instead of restricting what units can use markerlights or how many tokens they can accumulate, you just make it harder to get a "hit" with a markerlight in the first place?

Correct. Again, it prevents copious amounts of BS5+ shots going off.

My biggest problem with this unit, is that it seems it lacks a role...

Its a fire warrior basically. a weaker gun, arguably better statline, even same cost-but in the end it fills the same role.
Except it pretty much does it worse given the lack of special rules.

When a new unit is made the most important thing is to make it matter, and this gue I feel does not. they fill no role not already filled. except maybe special weapons troop carriers.

Interesting point abou filling a role. What if they were used as expendable shock troops. Carapace armor. Assault submachine gun type weapons and large numbers. Since kroot do make better snipers they humans can be used as more of a screening element for main tau force.


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Like better equipped cultists.

BoomWolf wrote:My biggest problem with this unit, is that it seems it lacks a role...

Its a fire warrior basically. a weaker gun, arguably better statline, even same cost-but in the end it fills the same role.
Except it pretty much does it worse given the lack of special rules.

When a new unit is made the most important thing is to make it matter, and this gue I feel does not. they fill no role not already filled. except maybe special weapons troop carriers.

Again, they're not part of the Tau Codex, but a replacement for Veterans in the IG codex. As a result, they're alike Fire Warriors, yet not identical, intentionally. As for their role, they're essentially the same as regular veterans; hop in a chimera and drive around until you need to jump on an objective.

Mordred wrote:Interesting point abou filling a role. What if they were used as expendable shock troops. Carapace armor. Assault submachine gun type weapons and large numbers. Since kroot do make better snipers they humans can be used as more of a screening element for main tau force.


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Like better equipped cultists.

Actually, yeah, that might make a great addition. Give them assault weapons (Pulse SMG?) instead of the bulked up Lasguns, maybe an extra power weapon, increased point cost, and there's a viable assault alternative to the Kroot. Let me see what I can do with that.

Interesting point abou filling a role. What if they were used as expendable shock troops. Carapace armor. Assault submachine gun type weapons and large numbers. Since kroot do make better snipers they humans can be used as more of a screening element for main tau force.


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Like better equipped cultists.

This^ Pulse Carbines are assault 2 weapons 18'' range, I think it would suit this unit personally. OP seems to have a different idea of Gue'vesa entirely though.

 797th Red Tigers wrote:

BoomWolf wrote:My biggest problem with this unit, is that it seems it lacks a role...

Its a fire warrior basically. a weaker gun, arguably better statline, even same cost-but in the end it fills the same role.
Except it pretty much does it worse given the lack of special rules.

When a new unit is made the most important thing is to make it matter, and this gue I feel does not. they fill no role not already filled. except maybe special weapons troop carriers.

Again, they're not part of the Tau Codex, but a replacement for Veterans in the IG codex. As a result, they're alike Fire Warriors, yet not identical, intentionally. As for their role, they're essentially the same as regular veterans; hop in a chimera and drive around until you need to jump on an objective.

Mordred wrote:Interesting point abou filling a role. What if they were used as expendable shock troops. Carapace armor. Assault submachine gun type weapons and large numbers. Since kroot do make better snipers they humans can be used as more of a screening element for main
tau force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like better equipped cultists.

Actually, yeah, that might make a great addition. Give them assault weapons (Pulse SMG?) instead of the bulked up Las-guns, maybe an extra power weapon, increased point cost, and there's a viable assault alternative to the Kroot. Let me see what I can do with that.

Glad that might have helped. Personally I think they would be great conversions Scions maybe? And remember to not give them too much. These are inferior humans after all and wouldn't benefit from all gizmos available to Tau. Just enough to work.

 Mordred wrote:
*snip*

Yeah. I try not to give them too much Tau stuff, as there's a few reasons in both the Fluff and Crunch why this doesn't work. For example, the average pulse weapon doesn't even fit in human hands. Not only are Fire Caste Tau shorter in hight and stature, but they've only got three knuckles. A human hand, with four knuckles and larger fingers would simply be too big to fit confortably (or even at all) on a Tau handle. They'd have to have specific versions of Pulse weapons made for human hands.

This applies to pretty much everything in the Tau arsenal, from Battlesuits to shoes.

I don't think it'd be too hard to take the standard Pulse Carbine mechanisms and put on new furniture (stock, forward grip, trigger) that works with human hands. The issue would be more whether it's worth investing in new weapons for auxiliaries who already come with decent ones of their own (namely lasguns). I kinda like the idea of elite Gue'Vesa who get limited Tau wargear.

Personally, I quite like the rules in IA3 Taros Campaign regarding Gue'vesa - they are cheap cannon fodder, used primarily for putting a human face on the Tau occupation/annexation and putting down any civil unrest without expending valuable Tau lives. They occasionally end up on the front line of a battle, but are generally expendable and therefore would not get that much investment in terms of equipment (especially when so much Imperial gear is lying around after the defeat/withdrawal/abandonment). IoM forces getting 'death to traitors' when fighting them is also appropriate, although they could have just used 'hatred' and not made yet another special rule up.

As such, their cheapness is key, and with that comes the basic fit out of las guns and flak armour. Maybe a relatively cheap and easy upgrade for the Tau to do, like EMP or Photon Grenades, but I don't see them equipping these guys out with Combat armour and pulse rifles.

For me, a nice touch would be 'observer drones' - special drones attached to support the Gue'vesa (maybe with a marker light?) but also equipped with the means to maintain order in a similar manner to a commissar - if they break, the drone takes out a Gue'vesa to keep them on the straight and narrow. Im sure the Tau aren't beyond this kind of thinking when it comes to their subservient races...

In truth though, the Gue'vesa issue is part of a wider issue with Tau, in that there should be much more focus on auxiliaries. Hopefully with the next codex they will look at a unique FOC where you take one troop and two axillaries slots open up or something, but that's probably a debate for another thread.

Gue'vesa Veterans
WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 L:8

Carapace Armor; Pulse Carbines; Grenades(wateva fire warriors get idk cause i dont play tau).

Maybe a special rule or two to make them special snowflakes like... move through cover would be solid since they are skirmishers.


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10 or 11 points a model?


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 Iapedus wrote:
Personally, I quite like the rules in IA3 Taros Campaign regarding Gue'vesa - they are cheap cannon fodder, used primarily for putting a human face on the Tau occupation/annexation and putting down any civil unrest without expending valuable Tau lives. They occasionally end up on the front line of a battle, but are generally expendable and therefore would not get that much investment in terms of equipment (especially when so much Imperial gear is lying around after the defeat/withdrawal/abandonment). IoM forces getting 'death to traitors' when fighting them is also appropriate, although they could have just used 'hatred' and not made yet another special rule up.

As such, their cheapness is key, and with that comes the basic fit out of las guns and flak armour. Maybe a relatively cheap and easy upgrade for the Tau to do, like EMP or Photon Grenades, but I don't see them equipping these guys out with Combat armour and pulse rifles.

For me, a nice touch would be 'observer drones' - special drones attached to support the Gue'vesa (maybe with a marker light?) but also equipped with the means to maintain order in a similar manner to a commissar - if they break, the drone takes out a Gue'vesa to keep them on the straight and narrow. Im sure the Tau aren't beyond this kind of thinking when it comes to their subservient races...

In truth though, the Gue'vesa issue is part of a wider issue with Tau, in that there should be much more focus on auxiliaries. Hopefully with the next codex they will look at a unique FOC where you take one troop and two axillaries slots open up or something, but that's probably a debate for another thread.

Like the observer drone for guardsman clones with lasguns and flackjacket.
The vets would get the carbines better armor and grenades and no drone because they are dedicated to the cause of the Greater Good

Mhm. While I disagree about the usefulness of Taros Gue'Vesa, I do agree about additional Tau Auxiliaries. I want my squats Demiurg already. Regardless, I dislike the idea of a commissar-esque unit with the Gue'Vesa-- Makes them too similar to their Imperial counterparts. I'm trying to strike a balance here-- Like both the Imperium and the Tau, yet unique in several aspects.

As for Mordred's set of rules there, that seems appropriate. Basic Fire Warriors carry Combat Armor, Pulse Rifles, and Photon Grenades, so you're spot on. As for special rules, perhaps something like preferred enemy (IG) just to make Human v Human combat all the more bloody? Giving them Move Through Cover makes them better equipped Kroot with a decent save and lower WS, and would therefore make them a tad redundant.

Another thing that the humans could do well is act as Pathfinder with actual melee survivability. Normally, a Pathfinder unit getting caught in cqc is a death sentence, but a simple upgrade to a 4+ Save and BS3 is enough to even out most possible fights against non-dedicated-assault units like Death Company. Hell, you might even try to initiate an assault, which is otherwise unheard of from Pathfinders.

Why not simply make Gue'vesa Markerlights Heavy 1 instead of Assault 1? Seems like a simple enough nerf that doesn't involve creating additional special rules and most of the time will have the same effect.

Bear in mind that Gue'vesa are civilians, so they wouldn't have acces to lasguns as far as I know. Maybe an augmented autogun?

Gue'Vesa are militia. If they're guard defectors, they'll bring lasguns with, them, if they're a PDF raised on a captured/suborned world, they can make lasguns locally.

I would stick with basic lasguns, though. Whilst the Tau have a higher common tech level than the standard guard issue, the lasgun is the product of much smarter brains than theirs (Dark age of Technology imperium and the higher Magi of the Mechanicus of Mars) designing a weapon simple to maintain and build. You can make a weapon better but not without redesigning it quite a lot. Yes, they upgraded Kroot firearms, but those were black powder weapons before they started, not frickin' combat lasers.

Secondly, unlike the eldar, the Tau have no particular background with (destructive) laser technology rather than informational stuff like markerlights. Certainly not compared to the imperium, who can produce stuff like man-portable lascannons that hit as hard as a heavy rail rifle.


Carapace plate is believable, and I can see humans liking all flavours of grenades. Actually, offensive grenades might be worth it; if you want them to stand out in a Tau army, then human's fervent love of flamethrowers and explosives might be something to highlight as a 'tastless but tolerable trait' like the kroot's eating the dead. Given that the Kroot - as noted - are a naff assault unit, maybe Gue'vesa could fill the slot as expendable shock troops?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Why not simply make Gue'vesa Markerlights Heavy 1 instead of Assault 1? Seems like a simple enough nerf that doesn't involve creating additional special rules and most of the time will have the same effect.

Normal markerlights are already heavy1....

Aren't Humans also famous for their zealotry? Considering they are so firm in their belief of the Greater Good that they are willing to turn their backs and take arms against the frickin' Imperium of Man, I think it would make sense that they would have the Zealot special rule. In terms of combat role, they would serve as meat shields who don't simply turn tail and run away after taking heavy casualties, etc.

A few fair points raised. It looks like we're gradually turning these guys in a relatively flimsy, yet hard-hitting assault unit. As for the concerns about whether or not regular old Lasguns are more optimal than Pulse Carbines, I disagree. You see, the Tau military isn't nearly as vast or unmanageable than their Imperial counterparts. The Gue'Vesa "PDF"s established on ex-human world's could easily be equipped with custom made-for-human-use equipment as soon as the Earth Caste starts setting up.

I really like the idea of regular IG and defector IG Gue'Vesa having mutual Hatred or Preferred Enemy. Zealot -- which includes Fearless -- is probably too much.