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 Exergy wrote:

Space Marines were indoctinated to serve humanity, to defend the IoM.

How they interpret those though varies wildly between chapters, and it's not 'serve' it's 'protect' for many of them. If you were a chapter that emphasized Protect (Salamanders as an example) then it's entirely possible that they might decide that the Imperium is no longer servign that purpose. (I mean, hell there's an entire subset of Inquisitors who think that)

 Exergy wrote:

How are they going to become disillusioned with the IoM but still want to serve humanity. Even if they did not like the IoM, surely they must also know that they are probably best served by sticking with the IoM.

This has actually happened before though, where chapters have split from the IoM and still wished to protect mankind (Soul Drinkers spring to mind)

 Exergy wrote:

First it would cause strife for the IoM, more of the IoM finite resources would have to be devoted to pursuing them and battling them; this doesn't serve humanity or the greater good.

This assumes that they even notice. Chapters simply vanish on a regular basis. there's a reason, for example, the Cursed Founding has an unknown number of chapters founded. There are a lot of 'unknown numbers' when dealing with Space Marines, and the fluff for, example, the Charcaradonts suggests that chapters go missing all the time and might not be seen for millennia.

It only actually becomes an issue if SM chapters start broadcasting that they're switching sides. And even then may or may not be an issue.

 Exergy wrote:

Secondly they would run out of new war materials and maintenance parts. While they might be able to shed their bolters for pulse rifles rather easily, their power armor is linked to their nerve bundles by a series of implants. Finding a way to make their implants compatable with Tau technology would be tough, certainly beyond them, possibly beyond the Tau.

Incorrect. One, SM chapters are largely self sufficient. See Charcaradonts for just how far this can be taken. Two, thanks to the Inquisition and casualties among the Raven Guard, no, no it's not beyond the tau to manufacture SM equipment. They have plenty of samples to reverse engineer now.

I mean, hell, they've been reverse engineering IoM Starship technology and or creating their own equivalents, they're most likely going to figure out SM armor pretty quick. Even if they cannot interface the technology (which has already happened in fluff, during a interrogation of a captured member of the Raven Guard) they could probably produce their own parts, since SM do know that much about their own armor.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

First it would cause strife for the IoM, more of the IoM finite resources would have to be devoted to pursuing them and battling them; this doesn't serve humanity or the greater good.

This assumes that they even notice. Chapters simply vanish on a regular basis. there's a reason, for example, the Cursed Founding has an unknown number of chapters founded. There are a lot of 'unknown numbers' when dealing with Space Marines, and the fluff for, example, the Charcaradonts suggests that chapters go missing all the time and might not be seen for millennia.

It only actually becomes an issue if SM chapters start broadcasting that they're switching sides. And even then may or may not be an issue.

It certainly is possible to just leave and never be heard from again, but if one was leaving they would have to assume the risk of being discovered into the equation. The blood and suffering that would occur if they were discovered would seem to counter what betterment or protection for mankind they would get from turning to the Tau.

Certainly many chapters do turn their back on the IoM and run off to fight chaos; however, usually their motivation is more to free themselves from administration and inefficient control in order to pursue a vendetta against other traitor marines or chaos. They accept they are possibly causing humanity harm, but think it's worth it if they get to eradicate some part of true evil.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Secondly they would run out of new war materials and maintenance parts. While they might be able to shed their bolters for pulse rifles rather easily, their power armor is linked to their nerve bundles by a series of implants. Finding a way to make their implants compatable with Tau technology would be tough, certainly beyond them, possibly beyond the Tau.

Incorrect. One, SM chapters are largely self sufficient. See Charcaradonts for just how far this can be taken. Two, thanks to the Inquisition and casualties among the Raven Guard, no, no it's not beyond the tau to manufacture SM equipment. They have plenty of samples to reverse engineer now.

I mean, hell, they've been reverse engineering IoM Starship technology and or creating their own equivalents, they're most likely going to figure out SM armor pretty quick. Even if they cannot interface the technology (which has already happened in fluff, during a interrogation of a captured member of the Raven Guard) they could probably produce their own parts, since SM do know that much about their own armor.

Space Marines are largely self sufficient. They can fight for decades without resupply. However over those decades some things break which they cannot fix. The things they cannot fix would probably also be the things the Tau would have the hardest time replicating or fixing. But leaving for good, particularly so far from the imperial core, would be tough.

Just having something doesnt mean you can reverse engineer it. Reverse engineering can be incredibly difficult, sometimes more so than just engineering a parallel technology that does the same thing.

In the great scheme of things SM are a much higher level of technology than an IoM starship. Starships were created well before the Emperor and new starship tech has been engineered after his sleep. SM were created only with the Emperor of mandkind's direct intervention and short of Fabulus Bill and a few certifiably insane iron warriors, nothing like them has been created since, and they had the DE or pure chaos to assist. The only thing the IoM can do with SM is just continue their existence and try to prevent geneseed mutation. I dont see the Tau, who we dont have any real example of their ability to manipulate genetic implants, being able to do what only the emperor was able to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


They'd replace their gear the same way Carcharodons replace their gear- stealing it from corpses and Imperial supply ships as "tithes." After all, the Tau fights the Imperium often enough, and Space Marines get drawn in often enough.

There're plenty of Gue'vesa to serve in the Tau Empire. They're humans- admittedly, humans that are already better-protected than the overwhelming majority of the Imperium's citizens, but humans all the same.

So to protect the Gue'vesa, these space marines are going to put themselves in a situation where they must willfully murder other humans to get their equipment.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

... and if the SM Chapter in question decides the gov't of the Imperium is evil, then yes, direct conflict with them DOES serve the greater good.

If they think they can beat the IoM in a suitably fast period of time. You can only save humanity from the IoM if you can defeat it quickly. Creating a long war or making the current one harder doesnt protect humans it puts them at risk.

 Exergy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


They'd replace their gear the same way Carcharodons replace their gear- stealing it from corpses and Imperial supply ships as "tithes." After all, the Tau fights the Imperium often enough, and Space Marines get drawn in often enough.

There're plenty of Gue'vesa to serve in the Tau Empire. They're humans- admittedly, humans that are already better-protected than the overwhelming majority of the Imperium's citizens, but humans all the same.

So to protect the Gue'vesa, these space marines are going to put themselves in a situation where they must willfully murder other humans to get their equipment.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

... and if the SM Chapter in question decides the gov't of the Imperium is evil, then yes, direct conflict with them DOES serve the greater good.

If they think they can beat the IoM in a suitably fast period of time. You can only save humanity from the IoM if you can defeat it quickly. Creating a long war or making the current one harder doesnt protect humans it puts them at risk.

Killing Marines is the inevitable result of defending Gue'vesa from the predations of the Imperium.

... and considering that Marines can live for centuries, I see them as more willing to adopt long-term thinking than you give them credit for. After all, there is no quick way to overthrown the High lords- especially not for a lone renegade Chapter.

The Tau provide safety from Imperial reprisal.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


They'd replace their gear the same way Carcharodons replace their gear- stealing it from corpses and Imperial supply ships as "tithes." After all, the Tau fights the Imperium often enough, and Space Marines get drawn in often enough.

There're plenty of Gue'vesa to serve in the Tau Empire. They're humans- admittedly, humans that are already better-protected than the overwhelming majority of the Imperium's citizens, but humans all the same.

So to protect the Gue'vesa, these space marines are going to put themselves in a situation where they must willfully murder other humans to get their equipment.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

... and if the SM Chapter in question decides the gov't of the Imperium is evil, then yes, direct conflict with them DOES serve the greater good.

If they think they can beat the IoM in a suitably fast period of time. You can only save humanity from the IoM if you can defeat it quickly. Creating a long war or making the current one harder doesnt protect humans it puts them at risk.

Killing Marines is the inevitable result of defending Gue'vesa from the predations of the Imperium.

Killing marines sent to attack the Tau is one thing, having to search out humans to raid to get supplies. Killing and stealing from people whose only crime is being part of the IoM. Doesnt sound like it's serving the greater good. Sounds pretty selfserving and evil to me.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

... and considering that Marines can live for centuries, I see them as more willing to adopt long-term thinking than you give them credit for. After all, there is no quick way to overthrown the High lords- especially not for a lone renegade Chapter.

Marines may live for centuries, but turning traitor in small numbers to the Tau doesnt weaken the IoM in any meaninful way as to bring out it's downfall. It just makes the lives of the humans in the IoM that much more miserable as they are tithed and taxes to hunt down more traitors.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The Tau provide safety from Imperial reprisal.

So they are turning traitor for their own self interest. Sounding more and more morally right.

What if the high lords of terra send 50 guard regiments and 5 space marine chapters to hunt the traitor SMs that betrayed the IoM to the Tau.

Is it good for all of those humans to die, just because they are servents of the IoM? What about the Tau killed battling them? Those battles need not have happened. Is it good to attract the ire of the IoM, I'm not sure the Tau would even want a chapter of SM to defect to them. It might go unnoticed, but it might be catastrophic.

 Exergy wrote:


Killing marines sent to attack the Tau is one thing, having to search out humans to raid to get supplies. Killing and stealing from people whose only crime is being part of the IoM. Doesnt sound like it's serving the greater good. Sounds pretty selfserving and evil to me.

Yeah...have you read any of the fluff on how Carcharodons treat other loyalists?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:


What if the high lords of terra send 50 guard regiments and 5 space marine chapters to hunt the traitor SMs that betrayed the IoM to the Tau.

Abaddon takes Cadia?

Just 50 guard regiments would make a difference on Cadia? The Departmento Munitorim probably loses 50 a day due to accounting errors.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Just 50 guard regiments would make a difference on Cadia? The Departmento Munitorim probably loses 50 a day due to accounting errors.

Just saying- a Space Marine chapter quits and goes Tau? Galaxy goes on as normal.

Abaddon takes Cadia? Game over for the Imperium.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Just 50 guard regiments would make a difference on Cadia? The Departmento Munitorim probably loses 50 a day due to accounting errors.

Would 50 guard regiments make a difference against the Tau?

 Redcruisair wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Just 50 guard regiments would make a difference on Cadia? The Departmento Munitorim probably loses 50 a day due to accounting errors.

Would 50 guard regiments make a difference against the Tau?

Against a tiny xenos species like that?

Very possible indeed.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Just 50 guard regiments would make a difference on Cadia? The Departmento Munitorim probably loses 50 a day due to accounting errors.

Just saying- a Space Marine chapter quits and goes Tau? Galaxy goes on as normal.

Except that the Inquisition and Eccessiarchy will blow their minds out over the unimaginable heresy. Space Marines were created to defeat Xenos and liberate Humanity from their alien oppressors. Space Marines serving Xenos and working to subjugate Mankind under alien rule would be the ultimate Heresy. Something like that has never occurred in millennia-long history of the Imperium. It would be far worse than a Chapter falling to Chaos. The ideological damage would be immense.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Against a tiny xenos species like that?

Very possible indeed.

Not really, they lost more than that when the Tau pushed back across the gulf. Remember, the tau didn't stop until they hit the Knight world of Voltoris.




Throw on that about 25 of those regiments will probably be diverted to fight the Hive Fleets alongside the tau. In some areas around the Damocles gulf, IG and the Inq is embracing the idea of "The Enemy of my Enemy is someone to draw fire for us". Inq has even provided the Tau with astropaths and limited access to AdMech facilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Except that the Inquisition and Eccessiarchy will blow their minds out over the unimaginable heresy.

Except those inquisitors who have already gone over to the Tau. One such, in Damocles, lays a trap for the Raven guard that was...well, 100% successful, even providing the Tau with space marine prisoners to interrogate.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Just 50 guard regiments would make a difference on Cadia? The Departmento Munitorim probably loses 50 a day due to accounting errors.

Just saying- a Space Marine chapter quits and goes Tau? Galaxy goes on as normal.

Abaddon takes Cadia? Game over for the Imperium.

Yeah, but the Imperium has deep enough pockets to off a Space Marine chapter. It's not they haven't done it before.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Fine, SM are incorruptible outside of chaos and unique cases.

If I have several “unique cases”, how are they still unique .
By looking at the description for the Soul Drinker, why would they refuse an alliance offer from the Tau that would help them protect human members of the Tau empire against Orks or Tyranids or any such enemy? Why do you think Lufgt Huron would have refuse an offer from the Tau to become the leader of a human planet/system inside the Tau empire?

 Exergy wrote:
Space Marines were indoctinated to serve humanity, to defend the IoM. How are they going to become disillusioned with the IoM but still want to serve humanity.

Read the Soul Drinkers series and find out!
To answer your question, once the Imperium as already decided you were renegade, if you still want to serve humanity, you have few choices. Either continue on your own, which means a very hard time getting new suppliers, or join Chaos for power and stuff, or join the Tau so they can give you supplies and aid you. I would go Tau. I would replace my power armor by some Tau exo-armor, my bolter by some Tau reliable plasma weapon, …

Regarding the 'what', this is how I see stuff:

Power and Terminator Armor: Rebuilt/upgraded with Tau materials and technology. Fio'tak is lightweight and stronger than ceramite, so I'd expect stronger and lighter armor. One could also expect helmets to be upgraded with Tau sensors and communications gear.

Weapons: judging by their relative size on the tabletop, most marines should be able to wield Crisis suit weaponry. Plasma Rifles, Fusion Blasters and Burst Cannons shouldn't be too hard to adapt for marine hand-held use, and provide them with a big firepower increase.

Battlesuits: marines are already tough as nails, by Tau standards at least. I think putting a valid marine in a suit is a waste of that toughness. I could totally see using some of the larger suits (Y'vahra maybe) as Dreadnought replacements)

Vehicles: I see no reason why marines couldn't switch over to Tau vehicles. Assuming the relative size on the tabletop for vehicles is correct, the Devilfish looks like it could at least accommodate a Combat Squad. Same goes for Predator vs. Hammerhead/Skyray. Land Raiders would be more problematic, both to maintain (especially their Machine Spirit) and to replace (Tau have no comparable vehicle).

I like that idea that they could carry crisis suit weaponry. Do you think they would use it as a squad special weapons, eg melta/fusion gun heavy bolter/burst cannons type thing or would the whole squad be toting tau weaponry like a 30k support squad?

On the vehicles side of things what would your ultimate tau/SM predator load out be?

 Edreynaline wrote:
I like that idea that they could carry crisis suit weaponry. Do you think they would use it as a squad special weapons, eg melta/fusion gun heavy bolter/burst cannons type thing or would the whole squad be toting tau weaponry like a 30k support squad?

On the vehicles side of things what would your ultimate tau/SM predator load out be?

Plasma Rifles would make excellent Bolter substitutes so I'd expect chapter-wide deployment. Fusion Blasters and Burst Cannons would probably be used as squad support (1-2 per squad) due to their more specialized nature.

Regarding Predators, I feel the Tau would just modify Hammerhead, or allow / support the marines in manufacturing their own Predators (according to Lexicanum, with IA2 given as source, some chapter armories can produce their own Predators). However, if they decided to reverse engineer/upgrade one, I'd expect the ultimate one to carry the Riptide guns. Predator is already a roomy tank (it used to have transport capacity but that got dropped in Great Crusade time for more ammo), and using Fio'tak instead of ceramite allows thinner armor plates, making it even roomier, so there would be plenty of space for the gun support systems.

 Edreynaline wrote:
I like that idea that they could carry crisis suit weaponry. Do you think they would use it as a squad special weapons, eg melta/fusion gun heavy bolter/burst cannons type thing or would the whole squad be toting tau weaponry like a 30k support squad?

On the vehicles side of things what would your ultimate tau/SM predator load out be?

Considering the Tau appears much more able to mass-produce (or perhaps more willing to issue) their heavier armaments to fully equip squads with them (such as whole Crisis units being armed with dual plasma rifles, for example), I would expect small individual units of marines with dedicated roles and weapons to match.

So you'd have 5 marines with plasma rifles to hunt heavy infantry, 5 marines with fusion blasters to hunt tanks, small units of scouts with rail rifles/ion rifles etc.

I think the tau would use a laspred to work out lascannon tech, then have a Railhead with Lascannon secondary systems (in place of burst cannons/SMS) as a tank hunter. Would be very scary to face, 1 S10 AP1 shot and 2 S9 AP2 shots from a Skimmer with heavy armour and able to make use of markerlight support? Ouch

And considering the size of lascannons, they could probably twin-link those suckers, making them even more accurate.

I like this idea...*starts to think of ways to counts as* I really like the idea of a Rail gun equipped dreadnaught too. Imagine a mortis rail gun dread. that would look fun. so basically a broadside/dread cross.

Would using Fio'tak be a way to get slimline Marines? If its lighter and thinner than ceramite?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Edreynaline wrote:
I like that idea that they could carry crisis suit weaponry. Do you think they would use it as a squad special weapons, eg melta/fusion gun heavy bolter/burst cannons type thing or would the whole squad be toting tau weaponry like a 30k support squad?

On the vehicles side of things what would your ultimate tau/SM predator load out be?

Considering the Tau appears much more able to mass-produce (or perhaps more willing to issue) their heavier armaments to fully equip squads with them (such as whole Crisis units being armed with dual plasma rifles, for example), I would expect small individual units of marines with dedicated roles and weapons to match.

So you'd have 5 marines with plasma rifles to hunt heavy infantry, 5 marines with fusion blasters to hunt tanks, small units of scouts with rail rifles/ion rifles etc.

I think the tau would use a laspred to work out lascannon tech, then have a Railhead with Lascannon secondary systems (in place of burst cannons/SMS) as a tank hunter. Would be very scary to face, 1 S10 AP1 shot and 2 S9 AP2 shots from a Skimmer with heavy armour and able to make use of markerlight support? Ouch

Not really; the Imperium simply has so many guys that it needs to equip that it's not economically viable to hand out hotshot lasguns and plasma weapons to everybody. Also keep in mind that the standard for the most common Imperial infantryman- a Guardsman- is basically "as simple, cheap, and reliable as is possible". Also keep in mind that the Imperium doesn't have much incentive to equip their Guardsmen as well as the Tau equip Fire Warriors- if there is one resource the Imperium has plenty of, it's manpower.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Just 50 guard regiments would make a difference on Cadia? The Departmento Munitorim probably loses 50 a day due to accounting errors.

Just saying- a Space Marine chapter quits and goes Tau? Galaxy goes on as normal.

Except that the Inquisition and Eccessiarchy will blow their minds out over the unimaginable heresy. Space Marines were created to defeat Xenos and liberate Humanity from their alien oppressors. Space Marines serving Xenos and working to subjugate Mankind under alien rule would be the ultimate Heresy. Something like that has never occurred in millennia-long history of the Imperium. It would be far worse than a Chapter falling to Chaos. The ideological damage would be immense.

Of course, it'll take 2-3 hundred years for the heads of said organizations to find that out, assuming the missives don't disappear into the Warp.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Edreynaline wrote:
I like that idea that they could carry crisis suit weaponry. Do you think they would use it as a squad special weapons, eg melta/fusion gun heavy bolter/burst cannons type thing or would the whole squad be toting tau weaponry like a 30k support squad?

On the vehicles side of things what would your ultimate tau/SM predator load out be?

Considering the Tau appears much more able to mass-produce (or perhaps more willing to issue) their heavier armaments to fully equip squads with them (such as whole Crisis units being armed with dual plasma rifles, for example), I would expect small individual units of marines with dedicated roles and weapons to match.

So you'd have 5 marines with plasma rifles to hunt heavy infantry, 5 marines with fusion blasters to hunt tanks, small units of scouts with rail rifles/ion rifles etc.

I think the tau would use a laspred to work out lascannon tech, then have a Railhead with Lascannon secondary systems (in place of burst cannons/SMS) as a tank hunter. Would be very scary to face, 1 S10 AP1 shot and 2 S9 AP2 shots from a Skimmer with heavy armour and able to make use of markerlight support? Ouch

Not really; the Imperium simply has so many guys that it needs to equip that it's not economically viable to hand out hotshot lasguns and plasma weapons to everybody. Also keep in mind that the standard for the most common Imperial infantryman- a Guardsman- is basically "as simple, cheap, and reliable as is possible". Also keep in mind that the Imperium doesn't have much incentive to equip their Guardsmen as well as the Tau equip Fire Warriors- if there is one resource the Imperium has plenty of, it's manpower.

I disagree. As far as high tech equipment goes, the Imperium is either unable or unwilling to supply high-tech gear in sufficient numbers. I'm not talking about IG, but marines. There's around 1.000.000 of them (1000 chapters of 1000 marines) and yet:

The Mechanicum can't/won't supply them all with the newer marks of Power Armor. Terminator Armor supply is even worse. Iron Hands fir example, despite having a goid relationship to the Mechanicum still have less than normal amount of Terminator Armor 10.000 years after Istvaan.

Stuff like Thunderhawks and Land Raiders are often looked at as chapter relics, hinting that replacing them epuld be quite difficult.Tau never serm to look at Mantas the same way.

 Psienesis wrote:

But saying that there wouldn't be places to take from that are dangerous enough, it's not like the Empire haven't got Death Worlds, and human armies that are at least veterans of some war-acts.

And, in most circumstances, SM Chapters can recruit from said Death Worlds.

In these circumstances, though, these are renegade SM. The kind that, should an IN Battlegroup roll through the system, there's going to be a shoot-out above the planet (with the SM caught between the Navy and the planet's own gravity well). Highly risky; the sort of scenario that may end (less a matter of "if" than "when") with more losses to the Chapter than it gains. Remember that, once they've broken away from the Imperium, the Marines are cut-off from the supply lines of the Mechanicus, and any vehicles they lose are going to be near-unrecoverable. Lose a Strike Cruiser or a Battle Barge, and there's no replacing that. The Tau don't really have an equivalent.

Human veterans who are already in the Tau Empire are most-likely too old to begin Space Marine training. We haven't seen that being done since the GC/Heresy era.


ETA: And since "purity above all else" and "unquestioning devotion to the Emperor alone" are the hallmarks of the Red Scorpions, I think it safe to assume that the Red Scorpions are not going to be the Chapter joining up with heretical Xenos, so their recruitment practices (an exception that proves the rule) are not a factor here.

Renegades recruit from imperial worlds regularly. That is definitely a thing. All their labor is cultist or slave and they do slave raids just like the Dark Eldar. They also raid military outposts for supplies. What exactly do you think chaos marines do? They are hit and run missions and that is a huge part of the fluff.

LordBlades wrote:
I disagree. As far as high tech equipment goes, the Imperium is either unable or unwilling to supply high-tech gear in sufficient numbers. I'm not talking about IG, but marines. There's around 1.000.000 of them (1000 chapters of 1000 marines) and yet:

The Mechanicum can't/won't supply them all with the newer marks of Power Armor. Terminator Armor supply is even worse. Iron Hands fir example, despite having a goid relationship to the Mechanicum still have less than normal amount of Terminator Armor 10.000 years after Istvaan.

Stuff like Thunderhawks and Land Raiders are often looked at as chapter relics, hinting that replacing them epuld be quite difficult.Tau never serm to look at Mantas the same way.

Marines are the elite, and so they get the best basic equipment the Imperium can provide- power armor and bolters. WRT newer marks of Power Armor, it's entirely likely that there isn't much impetus to supply it because whatever is currently in circulation among the Astartes is still sufficient.

Also, the thing to remember about Istvaan, is that the Dropsite Massacre crippled the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard to the point that they weren't just pushed out of the Heresy because they lacked the manpower to actually fight at the scales involved, but to the point that it was a serious consideration that these Legions would actually go extinct- while there is some evidence to suggest the Iron Hands may have been a slightly above-average strength (statistically speaking) Legion, they also ran straight into the guns of the Traitor forces, suffering heavy losses all the while, and tended to not retreat, thus leading to them being wiped out- oh, and the Iron Hands lost their Primarch at Istvaan V, while Vulkan went missing and Corax is the only one who managed to run away.

It's also to be remembered that the Mechanicus (post-Heresy AdMech is actually an "s" on the end, and not an "m") is by far not a monolithic power bloc, like everything else in the Imperium, and so the issues of supply are one of "it depends"- how close is a Chapter to a Forge World, are they on good terms with that Forge World, are they on good terms with the AdMech at all, do they have their own sufficiently equipped Chapter Forge that they don't ask for anything from the local Forge Worlds; things like that.

Oh, and Terminator armor's should iconography, the Crux Terminatus, supposedly has a fragment of the Emperor's armor shoved in it, so presumably that would actually put a hard limit on how many Terminator suits can actually be produced- assuming that there is some kind of traditional requirement that Terminator armor contain such a fragment, and that the Astartes chapters will generally pass on suits without such.

LordBlades wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Edreynaline wrote:
I like that idea that they could carry crisis suit weaponry. Do you think they would use it as a squad special weapons, eg melta/fusion gun heavy bolter/burst cannons type thing or would the whole squad be toting tau weaponry like a 30k support squad?

On the vehicles side of things what would your ultimate tau/SM predator load out be?

Considering the Tau appears much more able to mass-produce (or perhaps more willing to issue) their heavier armaments to fully equip squads with them (such as whole Crisis units being armed with dual plasma rifles, for example), I would expect small individual units of marines with dedicated roles and weapons to match.

So you'd have 5 marines with plasma rifles to hunt heavy infantry, 5 marines with fusion blasters to hunt tanks, small units of scouts with rail rifles/ion rifles etc.

I think the tau would use a laspred to work out lascannon tech, then have a Railhead with Lascannon secondary systems (in place of burst cannons/SMS) as a tank hunter. Would be very scary to face, 1 S10 AP1 shot and 2 S9 AP2 shots from a Skimmer with heavy armour and able to make use of markerlight support? Ouch

Not really; the Imperium simply has so many guys that it needs to equip that it's not economically viable to hand out hotshot lasguns and plasma weapons to everybody. Also keep in mind that the standard for the most common Imperial infantryman- a Guardsman- is basically "as simple, cheap, and reliable as is possible". Also keep in mind that the Imperium doesn't have much incentive to equip their Guardsmen as well as the Tau equip Fire Warriors- if there is one resource the Imperium has plenty of, it's manpower.

I disagree. As far as high tech equipment goes, the Imperium is either unable or unwilling to supply high-tech gear in sufficient numbers. I'm not talking about IG, but marines. There's around 1.000.000 of them (1000 chapters of 1000 marines) and yet:

The Mechanicum can't/won't supply them all with the newer marks of Power Armor. Terminator Armor supply is even worse. Iron Hands fir example, despite having a goid relationship to the Mechanicum still have less than normal amount of Terminator Armor 10.000 years after Istvaan.

Stuff like Thunderhawks and Land Raiders are often looked at as chapter relics, hinting that replacing them epuld be quite difficult.Tau never serm to look at Mantas the same way.

That fluff has been retconned. Originally Terminator Armor was a relic of the past, something the mechanicum was incapable of making in 40k. Now that that has changed, so has the fluff about the iron hands having less of it.

So the Tau could use their fio'vak or whatever its called to make Terminator Armour in significant enough amounts to give to the "Allied" SM. That would be interesting. The Tau don't do well in void combat when it comes to boarding. Now they have boarding specialists in TDA. With access to the combined armouries of the two...

Whiskey144 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
I disagree. As far as high tech equipment goes, the Imperium is either unable or unwilling to supply high-tech gear in sufficient numbers. I'm not talking about IG, but marines. There's around 1.000.000 of them (1000 chapters of 1000 marines) and yet:

The Mechanicum can't/won't supply them all with the newer marks of Power Armor. Terminator Armor supply is even worse. Iron Hands fir example, despite having a goid relationship to the Mechanicum still have less than normal amount of Terminator Armor 10.000 years after Istvaan.

Stuff like Thunderhawks and Land Raiders are often looked at as chapter relics, hinting that replacing them epuld be quite difficult.Tau never serm to look at Mantas the same way.

Marines are the elite, and so they get the best basic equipment the Imperium can provide- power armor and bolters. WRT newer marks of Power Armor, it's entirely likely that there isn't much impetus to supply it because whatever is currently in circulation among the Astartes is still sufficient.

Problem with that is that the Plasma Gun is superior to the bolter in almost every way against any target you would want to aim a bolter at and some stuff you wouldn't. So if the imperium is so big and capable of such awesome scale of manufacture then why don't all the marines have plasma guns?

Either the Imperium is incapable, or it is unwilling. If it is incapable then the marines would be better off with the Tau who can mass-produce a superior weapon (the Pulse Rifle or Pusle Carbine) in possibly larger numbers than the Imperium can produce Bolters (willing to bet there are more Shas'la Fire Warriors than Space Marines). If it is unwilling then the Imperium is sacrificing the ability of its soldiers for no good reason.

The Tau don't arbitrarily restrict weaponry from their elite forces when the weapon that they are holding back would make those forces more effective at their given task. The Imperium, apparently, does.

It also doesn't exactly help that you probably would hurt yourself 1/6 times using the plasma gun...

 Edreynaline wrote:
It also doesn't exactly help that you probably would hurt yourself 1/6 times using the plasma gun...

Well, 1/18 after you factor in power armour saves. But that is bringing tabletop rules in.

And that slight loss in numbers would be more than made up for by the increased lethality of those left. Or the Imperium could dial back on the power to make their plasma technology safer, like the Tau, even if just for the Space Marine basic Plasma Guns

haha yer you get the jist though. I feel that the power isn't the problem. at least in fluffy terms they are just old tricky technologies while the tau have managed to master a better, less dangerous way of using them. So now you give that to the space marines and boom they can kill marines really well. The thing about bolters thought is they have a powerful shrapnel effect(in fluff terms) that puts guardsmen down in groups of two, three or more at a time. the plasma just doesn't have that rate of fire. although I suppose a squad of half bolter half plasma would combine that effect.